| Author | Message | ||
| BLUE308 (Davidlewis)
Junior Member Username: Davidlewis Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2002 |
OK, let me rejuvinate this thread. My day of reckoning has come and I failed the So.Cal SMOG test miserably. Due to a way too busy life, I didn't do anything to prep for this test except to lean it out a 1/4 turn and add a bottle of 104+ to the gas. I was rewarded with the title of "Gross Polluter" for high CO's (>3.00). Every other test catagory passed with good margin. One reason I didn't mess with the timing or other "tricks" was that when I failed SMOG 2 years ago, I had the carbs professionally rebuilt, timing set and put new CAT's on to pass. I thought that all this should serve me well 2 years latter->WRONG! Now I am faced with having my F-mech set it up to pass vs trying to adjust it myself and retest it. I talked to my mech who said the high CO's are most likely due to an over-rich mixture (in spite of my 1/4 turn to the good), but if that is the case I've probably fouled my new CAT's with fuel. New or rebuilt CAT's aren't cheap! I've owned this car almost 12 years and every 2 years I FAIL SMOG. This pisses me off so much I'm thinking of trading in for a QV. I am so despondent, that I have even cast a wayward thought in the direction of (horrors) a P-car! ;( Help! - I need advice on what to do next this time and how to get out of this SMOG rut next time in 2 years. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 631 Registered: 3-2001 |
Ethanol or Ethyl Alcohol is grain alcohol. Isopropyl Alcohol (2-Propanol) is rubbing alcohol. The difference is that Isopropyl Alcohol has one more carbon molecule than Ethanol. It has been a while since I have had Chemistry but I think this is correct. HTHs. | ||
| G. J. Germane (Germane)
New member Username: Germane Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2002 |
With no intent to advocate civil disobedience, if nothing else seems to work, previous dynamometer testing of race engines revealed a simple solution. If the problem is mostly unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide emissions, one can bleed some nitrous oxide (N2O) into the air intake. A simple setup comprising a bottle, regulator and hose fed into the plenum will dramatically reduce emissions due to incomplete combustion with fuel-rich mixtures. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2002 |
The above is true, if you are using more than 10% ethanol for sustained periods. If you put some half a gallon in the tank, get the car smogged, then immediately fill the rest of the tank, you'll have a high % mix for less than 2 miles. Won't hurt a thing, I promise. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 171 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'm not a chemist, but I presume that Isopropyl Alcohol is at least somewhat similar to Ethanol Alcohol. Here's an extract from "Using Ethanol as a Vehicle Fuel", which talks about up to 85% Ethanol to Gasoline Ratio ("E-85"). Current engines can handle up to 10% Ethanol (maybe up to 15%) with no modifications according to most car manufacturers. The full article is at www.transportation.anl.gov/ttrdc/competitions/ethanol_challenge/ethanol.html "The main mechanical differences between ethanol and gasoline vehicles lie in the engine calibration and the fuel management system... Ethanol may also corrode certain materials that are commonly used in automobile parts, such as rubber and plastic. Components that come in contact with the fuel, such as piston rings, engine block, and valve seals, must be made of ethanol-compatible materials." | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 147 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ethyl alcohol is not different than gasoline in terms of the effects on the components of an engine. It is a drying agent, true. But so is gasoline! It does dry out oil, true. But so does gasoline! It is used is LOTS of gas on the east coast, and E-85 is highly used. It is also used in colder areas to keep the gas from freezing in the tank. But to answer your question, I didn't put it in a Ferrari, as I sadly do not own one. It was in a Fiat X 1/9. But I'll put it in ANY car. I had asked for years if this was possible, but no one had tried it. I am the first guy I know of who tried it, and after posting the results on that web-site, a number of other X owners have done it, and they swear by it. My X is a daily driver, and I haven't noticed ANY ill-effects. Either have any of the other drivers on the site. Try it! | ||
| lou staller (Lou_staller)
New member Username: Lou_staller Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2002 |
Are you sure you put the alcohol into the car and not yourself! Did you put this mixture into a Ferrari? If you did, you have bigger gonads then I do! Did it have any long term side effects to the motor or did you dilute it by filling the gas tanks after you passed the test? | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 144 Registered: 11-2002 |
David: This is GUARANTEED to work. http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=12159&messageid=1018817903 Harmless to your engine, too. Will cost you no more than 5 or 6 bux. Enjoy! | ||
| Gordon Hollingsworth (Gordonh)
New member Username: Gordonh Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2002 |
David, Current California law only exempts vehicles that are 30 or more years old from the biennial smog check (see Ca. Veh. C. �4000.1(d)(7) which can be found at findlaw.com. Look at Table 9 of the parts manual that presumably came with the car. On that page item 26 is the diverter valve, and item 50 is the vacuum line to it. If you plug this line somehow (a small BB, or possibly with silicon gasket goop) the diverter valve will have the air pump inject air into the exhaust manifolds at all times. Obviously the extra air provides additional oxygen for the catalyst. This MAY get you through the smog test, but is by no means a long term fix. | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2001 |
Here is a web site with info on toluene used as a power booster. http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/photos/cars/audi/toluene.html | ||
| Ron R (Ronr)
Junior Member Username: Ronr Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2002 |
I had a guy at a test station tell me (several years ago) that if you loosen the oil filler cap it will help. I assume it keeps the crankcase pressure down more than from just the PCV system. Don't know how effective it really is... | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2001 |
I would suggest adding Tolulene. This isthe same stuff that they add to make premium since TetraethylLead was outlawed. Tolulene is 130 octane, and burns extremely clean. As it is in todays fuels, there should not be any seal issues to worry about. I would try 1 gallon to 5 gallons of premium. Plugs will show much lighter in color as though the mixture is too lean. Makes GREAT power! | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 505 Registered: 11-2001 |
What about hot wires, like Manga Core and Nology, or hotter spark plugs, would that work? I would think that if the spark is hotter the fuel mixture would burn more completely? | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1391 Registered: 8-2002 |
David, It is suppose to raise 1 year every year but that has not happened. I did hear that it is going up to 1975 this year though | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2002 |
Paul, I experienced this very phenomena with a '79 RX7 which also has a thermal reactor rather than catalytic converter. Dumped air direct into thermal reactor just for the smog test (this is 15 years ago). Fortunately it was only a sniffer at idle then, no dyno. Backfired the entire drive on lift throttle. Fun. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1055 Registered: 12-2001 |
The ball bearing thing sounds like it might do the trick but the purpose of the dirverter valve is to direct air to the exhaust ports on cold starts when ARF is rich, switch to converters or dump to atmosphere depending on conditions. If a valve is stuck or defective and dumping into the converters at all times, similar to blocking the vacuum line, converter damage from overheating can happen. Another side affect is backfire on decel when the air is pumped into the converters at that time. Will it backfire during the smog test? I dont know. If you do this trick, do it in the parking lot of the test site rather than drive it there with the modification and hopefully it wont pop, fart and bang at the end of the test. | ||
| David Lewis (Davidlewis)
New member Username: Davidlewis Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2002 |
I appreciate the advice everyone. This stuff scares me like an IRS audit. Gordon, you have described my situation perfectly. Test only on a Dyno and I live in a smog bowl. The very fact that I drive a performance car practically makes me a criminal here. This is enough to consider moving to the north pole with Paul! Last year I had to submit a Jaguar to this same scrutiny and it ended up being black-listed as a gross polluter. It has sat in my driveway ever since. I will probably give it away to charity. I am interested in this "ball bearing in vacuum line" stunt. Got some more details like how it works? What size balls (will I need Big Ones :-)? For all these various sugestions below, it would be an interesting experiment to conduct "Before & Afters" on the machine to compare the actual numerical benefit. Anyone ever done that? Also, does anyone know if/when California intends to change this 1974 cut off to something more recent? Sorry for all the questions.... | ||
| Gordon Hollingsworth (Gordonh)
New member Username: Gordonh Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2002 |
David, I sympathize having gone through this myself. If the DMV renewal notice specified a "test only" station you may be in trouble. Those stations will not allow you to fiddle with the engine during the test, but will do a "pretest" that is not sent to the DMV. ANY REAL TEST IS NOW SENT TO THE DMV AND THEY KEEP A RECORD FOR EACH CAR! You can actually view the "smog test history" of your car over the internet. If you live in a major smog part of the state you must submit to a dyno test as opposed to a tail pipe test. The biggest problem I had with the dyno test was keeping the engine within the narrow RPM range specified. If memory serves the car must pass the test first at approximately 15 mph, and then again at 25 mph. The problem is that the engine speed cannot exceed 3,000. I could not keep the engine within the narrow rpm band specified, which resulted in void tests. Make sure that the air injection system is working properly if your car is equipped with cats. The cats require the additional air to clean up the exhaust gasses. You might want to "trick" the system by putting a ball bearing in the vacuum line to the diverter valve so that the air pump is injecting air all of the time to provide even more oxygen for the test. Remember to remove the bearing after the test. Also understand that this "fix" is frowned upon by Big Brother. The law in California is that a car must be 30 years old to be exempt, or manufactured on or before 1974. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 587 Registered: 11-2002 |
To my knowledge, most Pep Boys & Wal-Mart Service Centers have Gas Analyzers (ya can't tune an engine without one). They claim to have stores all over the place (CA too I think) and might accept a request to check some exhaust gas. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 768 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oops. A couple of other posts whilst I was typing mine. Never mind. BTW, I heard a little ethanol can help. It does wonders for me.  | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 767 Registered: 4-2002 |
Paul: Not sure about this "test and re-test" thing in CA. I don't think you can do it for funsies. If you flunk, it's a PITA. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1386 Registered: 8-2002 |
I did mine in Nov. All I did what warm it up and lean the carbs out. I never needed to touch the timing. Make sure that the cats are in good shape. | ||
| James H. (Jamesh)
Junior Member Username: Jamesh Post Number: 167 Registered: 5-2001 |
David, If you have any doubts and I mean any, have the car pretested first to make sure it will pass. Here in Northern California, you can pay like 12.00 for a pretest first. Ask the tech at the smog station. I heard that if it puts out too much emmission, it will be classified as a gross polluter and you would have to go to a referee station which is run by the state. Everything is now computerize and once an official test is run, the results are sent to Sacramento. I also heard rumors that the new machines will have cameras recording the test so a person will not be able to substitute another car for the test. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1044 Registered: 12-2001 |
David, if you are comfortable with the way its running then take it for the test. If it fails then you can deal with it when you know what the readings are. Im assuming you can retest without too much hassle? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1043 Registered: 12-2001 |
Gasline antifreeze is methalhydrate. We need it up here in the north pole but it also works to pass smog tests. Its a common practice and it seems to work. | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
New member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2002 |
JRV has got it, retard till she squeals like a pig | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2002 |
""REAL MEN" aren't afraid to stick a sniffer up their tailpipe " whoa..... my tailpipe strictly says EXIT ONLY | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 584 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Or maybe Im just one of those guys who doesnt prefer my "ferrari" to run right. LOL << I don't know are you? "REAL MEN" aren't afraid to stick a sniffer up their tailpipe and accept what may be neccesitated by the results. ;-) | ||
| David Lewis (Davidlewis)
New member Username: Davidlewis Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2002 |
I've talked to 2 respected f-car mech's here in So-Cal and they tell me that there is one state of tune to pass smog and another to run correctly. A properly tuned car can pass smog buts it's a crap-shoot. I've driven the "pass" version and it's pathetic. Maybe it's a California thing but the smog narcs here measure many different and conflicting engine effluents. I understand that a "pass" state of tune achieves a compomise between these. BACK TO MY QUESTION - My 308 is currently in correct tune and runs great so I am trying to avoid any re-tune. So can I dump some crap into the tank or pull some other stunt to increase my odds? What is this methalhydrate stuff Paul? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1038 Registered: 12-2001 |
"any and all engines should come close to spec" not if its modified such as a cam swap. Does that mean it doesnt run right anymore? What is right anyway? A number on a data plate? Be more specific rather than a blanket statement that doesnt apply to everything. Or maybe Im just one of those guys who doesnt prefer my "ferrari" to run right. LOL | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 583 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ric, i thought for sure you did that to test us !! ;-) | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 582 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm not going to debate about this . The Factories (all factories) put out specs so anyone can know by testing the actual 'condition' of its operation. Any & all decent running engines should be able to come close to those specs, regardless of age. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 397 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hehe. I had "the wheel" in my mind backwards. I was somehow associating the word "retard" with the additional timing advance that an ECU dials in for warm start. My bad. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 267 Registered: 10-2002 |
On a slightly related note: Tom Cruise in Rainman comes to mind: "The world is down anyway and the EPA won't let my cars <ferraris,> on the street. As if they make a difference!" I love Breward County, FL where they thought, that the Shuttle is already putting out so much toxic gas, that the few cars won't make a difference. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 581 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Running right and wanting to toss the smog clutter are 2 very different things.<< Sorry sport...machines just spit out "facts"...a car that won't pass the HC test ISN'T RUNNING RIGHT! My car runs good is an opinion , a very biased opinion. Scopes Don't Lie or Have Opinions! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 580 Registered: 11-2002 |
Paul, I was getting 1.5% - 150ppm on a "Non-Cat" 77B...add poor/weak/bad cats and the numbers would've likely been 100ppm HC's. In texas the Legal limit on a 77 is 7%-700ppm...which means a very piss poor running engine would still pass. The Factory Plate with tune up specs on the engine bay sill called for 1.5% CO and 150ppm HC's at the ports AP disconnected. So that's what a properly tuned well running motor (in good mechanical & tuned condition) should be capable of producing or close to it. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1036 Registered: 12-2001 |
Running right and wanting to toss the smog clutter are 2 very different things. Mine runs great but wont pass a smog test in CA thats for sure. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1035 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree that a properly tuned engine is key but if you have a cat car with converters that arent the best, replacing or cheating are the only options if it fails. If my car failed a smog test, it only costs $15 to retest. I would adjust my timing after I failed depending on the readings and take another shot, not to mention half a tank of methalhydrate for good measure. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 579 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I thought once a car is 25 years old you can file for exception and be done with this crap. Am I wrong on this? << Some guys just want their "FERRARI" running right regardless of age. Now their lawnmower...that's different. ;-) | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV, why did you do a 77 car? I thought once a car is 25 years old you can file for exception and be done with this crap. Am I wrong on this? ...counting down the years for my 308. 4 more to go... | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2002 |
Use new spark plugs and gap them properly. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 578 Registered: 11-2002 |
The tricks to passing smog on carbed cars are balance and tune. Timing has to be exact F to R carbs balanced F to R and mixture brought to 1.50-2.00 CO. when firing properly on all 8 HC's will be between 125-200 ppm. It only takes 1 cylnder miss out of all 8 to raise HC's to 600-800-1200 ppm on the gas analyzer. That means if 7 cylnders are set perfect and one is off it will raise "Overall Readings" considerably. Nothing will burnoff enough HC's to mask a miss. HC's are the key # (unburned fuel denotes a miss)to work on when taking readings and adjusting using at least a 4 Gas Analyzer. Start by getting HC's to at least 400-600 range with mixture screw tweeking...then, one cylinder at a time SLOWLY make small corrections at a time bringing the HC's down...do one bank at a time until you can see what is helping and what is hurting, then the other bank (switching tailpipes). I just did a 77 B monday and ended up with 1.5%CO and 150ppm HC's. without the air pump connected at the tailpipes. Many things can cause poor readings, like air leaks, bad plug, bad plug wire/s, bad points/poor dwell, so don't just jump to conclusions until you've gone around the carbs a few times and understand what appears to be working just right and what may not.. Even a 308 engine in generally decent condition should produce numbers about 3%-3.5%co & 3-400ppm HC's..above that something likely needs more direct attention to correct. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 303 Registered: 6-2002 |
David - I do not understand why higher octane would help. Furthermore, it would seem that advancing the timing would provide more burn time. Perhaps Ric could elaborate. Finally, by leaning out the carburettors, there would be more oxygen molecules per HC molecule, providing an oversaturated (greater than 14:1) condition. This would, in theory (if I have got it right), give more opportunity to burn HCs. Input from those with greater expertise is appreciated. Jim S. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 577 Registered: 11-2002 |
retarded timing raises the combustion chamber temperature. >>>**Retarding** the timing gives the fuel air mixture **longer to burn** (earlier spark = more time per cycle). <<<< HUH????? | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 396 Registered: 2-2002 |
Retarding the timing gives the fuel air mixture longer to burn (earlier spark = more time per cycle). More burn time means more "consumed" HC's (HCs are unburned fuel). CO and NOx increase, but should be converted to CO2 and N2 if the catalytics are up to temp. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1031 Registered: 12-2001 |
Making sure the converters are up to temp to burn off HC's is critical. I would thing HC is going to be your biggest concern. One thing I have found to cheat and pass is to retard base timing. This reduces HC's as well. Doesnt do much for performance but Ive seen it work more than once. Why does it work? I have no idea and if someone could explain it in detail, I would love to know. I would think it has the opposite affect but it doesnt. | ||
| David Lewis (Davidlewis)
New member Username: Davidlewis Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2002 |
I am facing smog check for my carb 308 here in Calif. and this nightmare always has me knocking at the knees. Aside from the obvious of having all original smog equipment in place and insuring your machine is in top tune, what are the "tricks" that ACTUALLY work? Based on my experience and a search in the archives, I find the following: 1. Run it hard/hot prior to the check 2. Use a smaller air pump pulley (more CFM) 3. Use Techron for 200 miles prior to check 4. Burn a 50-50 mix of gas and Iso-Prop. alcohol during the check 5. Burn 104+ prior and during the check Which of these have been shown to actually improve the numbers? Are there any other tricks that work? Thanks |