| Author | Message | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2002 |
By the way, JRV, F40 stock brakes last only four laps at Blackhawk Farms Raceway, 1.7 miler north of Rockford, IL. But, after proper ducting and addition of evaporative cooling system, change to slotted only (not drilled) rotors for longevity, buying from Brembo, (not Ferrari, $$$), you're good for an endurance race. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 172 Registered: 11-2002 |
I agree with most all of the previously posted information. So only have a couple of things to add: The OEM Galfer pads are fine (as long as they're thick) for a first event if you don't want to commit to any mods. I've had customers run them all day long at tough braking tracks like Road America and Blackhawk Farms. Yes, by all means flush the fluid. Do a search, I recommend the Ford Heavy Duty (mfg by Dow Corning) for best value vs. performance and Castro SRF for the ultimate. (I found my technical data from Dow Corning if anyone is interested). Pad recommendation is Pagid R4-2, their blue pad. This is OEM on the F40 and is designed for 1100oF rotor temperatures. Will stop just fine when cold. You can get them from Northstar Motorsports for the 512TR, 348, 355, 360 and others. http://www.northstarmotorsports.com/ I do like the Porterfields, too. Have fun and do a cool down lap! | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 320 Registered: 4-2002 |
If this is your first time at the track, you can get away with simply flushing the brake fluid in the track preperation of the car (make sure the pads have more than 1/2 there original thickness. After you get a few track days, you will begin to notice brake fade (pad fade) from street pads. At this time, upgrade the pads to a pad that will take higher temperatures before fading. There are a whole list of pads with these characteristics (Pagid, Ferrodo, EBC,...) Now, if you get the bug and start going to the track every month/weekend, then its time for the brembos, springs and shocks,........ | ||
| Peter (Bubba)
Member Username: Bubba Post Number: 251 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks for all the responses. You guys are most helpful. This is the first time I am tracking the 512TR, so I don't have any experience with non-stock brakes. What I am planning to do is to put on some new brake pads (not sure if rotors need replacing) and have the existing stock pads as backup. I think my existing pads are the existing ones fron 1994 and still brakes fine in the streets (the car only has 15K miles), but I am not sure how much more use they can take and they do squeak a lot. What I don't want is to have the existing pads give out when I am at the track, hence the replacement, and stock becomes spare scenario. I don't think I will go down the road of William's ultra Brembo option because there is only 1 track around here. Just need some brakes that are satisfactory for both track and street use. Don't plan to spend a fortune doing it. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yep can see your point, and I have been there myself due to budget restrictions. Much better to do the job fully and right in the first place. The biggest and best brakes you can fit inside the wheel, I say. But I find it hard to watch classic car racing anymore and watch people turn their nice 246 Dino into a race car (for example). Starts off as an innocent, gee I am having fun here and could improve if I did this ... and 5 years later the same car has a full rollcage, fibre-glass panels or flares, race type wheels and brakes, cammy motor and goes heaps faster BUT is no longer a nice little Dino ... worse still the owner gets a little too excited at the next meeting as he is really racing now, not just having fun on the track, and rights the car off trying to pass a Nissan race car. In the end one has to decide what they want to do with the car, race it or not, there is no middle ground. I remember my race engine builder saying that the first hole you drill in a road car for a track event turns it into a race car. Why I thought?, but what he meant is that your attitude to the car has changed (otherwise you would not have drilled that hole) and thus it has started the performance is everything path ... Better to stop with that car at that point, and think to oneself, 'Hmmm, I like this racing game, what series currently exists for real racing?, can I join that'. And leave the nice road cars to the classic racing (non-competitive but fun racing) days, where ultimate braking performance does not matter as much. Just my opinion, and I do believe in using cars and exercising them on the track, but why modify an old car for it (even a 512TR is an old car, because you would race a 360 if serious), when there are so many current race series crying out for more entries. Pete | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 735 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pete. we're on the same page pretty much. My original comments come from seeing MANY guys spend more in the long run trying "half measures", instead of getting the upgrade game over with they try to tippy toe up the ladder (not very cost effective imo), with the Brembos you're done, finished,...and they will certianly add to value and desirability later down the line. Unless the track is a one time thing or passing phase, bigger is better. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2002 |
Totally agree JRV:
That is my point, Peter (Bubba) stated he was taking his 512TR down to the track in 4 weeks, not embarking on a national racing series. Thus why mod the brakes for a 2 or 5 times a year track fun! I do not have your racing experience, mine was only around 9 years, and yes to get the very best out of a car, it must not be a road car ... totally different requirements. But I would not spend $10,000 on a road car for a 5 times a year blast ... who cares, you are not going to win anything. Thus yes, we are talking the same language, but I think Bubba needs to explain his goals more clearly ... otherwise lets burn some money. I also do not believe it is worth modifying cars at all (except for safety) for classic car events, just get used to your cars limitations and have fun. If you want to go real racing leave the classic cars alone and go and race a REAL racing car that already has the right brakes and is a 100% track car ... then performance is everything and originality is nothing  Pete | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 733 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pete, I've raced/race Porsches for 20+ years, numerous venues, built numerous DPV's (dual purpose vehicles)...brakes are the "First" mod, including PCA Club Racing. Truly..there are street specs and track specs. You want a little Sunday fun going faster than you would around your nieghborhood fine...but don't confuse street cars that handle and stop ok on the street with Performance Cars or Dual Purpose Cars that rip at the track, doesn't work that way. That's simply a Marketing Hype induced Fallacy to delude sports car buyers into thinking they now have it all. F40 is one exception to the general rule, but of course it's really a reverse, a Race Car you can drive on the street. The rest are just fast street cars, until upgraded. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmm, okay yes I am aware that Porsche have a really good selection of race parts ... so maybe the comment was not the best. But I do know of many Porsches that compete in Porsche club racing where most things appear standard (yes, I have not checked part numbers, etc. but know some of the owners and I am pretty sure the cars are standard, in the brake department anyway ... with race pads). My point is that instead of going for the fancy label and show modified brakes, there are many other avenues to continue down before deciding that a factory 512TR brakes cannot handle the ocassional Sunday track blast. For example after spending $10,000 dollars on new calipers and rotors, etc. what is the lap time difference, or is there even a lap time difference? Thus proper race pads and learning to brake correctly and hard would probably create a faster lap. Late and deep braking does not always make for the fastest lap (ie. you can brake too deep and ruin the exit of the corner), but useful for that exciting pass Heh, his money but again if a Ferrari is that sh&t in the braking compartment that a 180mph car needs to have new calipers and rotors for an ocassional track run ... well, then what a sad situation and I'll leave a 512TR off my shopping list. Pete ps: JRV, heh like that comment , very funny and yes they are a case of small continual changes and one day they will get it right | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pete, maybe you're not familiar with the famous descrpition of Porsches. They are called, a Triumph of Perserverance Over Engineering. Very apt description imo. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 731 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>If they can't handle that I would sell the car and buy a Porsche ... << Sh&t...whole catalouges of parts exist to make a Porsche fun at the track! You start with throwing all the stock parts on the shelf and replace almost everything underneath...brakes and suspension! Porsches as a daul purpose vehicle is a fallacy and a huge joke. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2002 |
Gee, have you tracked your 512TR before and the brakes are not good enough?. A pad change and some ducting will make a huge difference, especially the pad change. Standard brake pads have to be made to work okay at cold temps for around town driving ... this is the opposite to what you want on the track. Thus before you throw everything away, try a pad compound change ... say to Mintex M171 (I think) or others ... just be careful driving around town as they do NOT work when cold. I know of many cars that race VERY hard in classic car racing with near standard brake systems ... just with racing pads and attention to cooling. Surely a Ferrari system would be okay for normal track use ... okay if you are going to race in the next Le Mans ... well, er, maybe a change is required, but not for 5 or 10 lap sprints. If they can't handle that I would sell the car and buy a Porsche ... Pete | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 728 Registered: 11-2002 |
On a 512TR I'd go with a Brembo set-up. The parts are the highest quality and deliver as promised. Go with the best and enjoy your Ferrari to the fullest imo. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1811 Registered: 2-2001 |
Peter, I had the same quest as you. I asked Brembo and they used my car to design new brakes for the 512TR. So I have their first brake upgrade system. It uses 14" F50 rotors & calipers & it brakes MUCH better than before. I still have to do some work on the master cylinder cus the new brakes are so huge they suck all the brake fluid out of the 512TR master cylinder. In the US it costs around $10,000 for all 4 corners. If you want a lower cost option I would suggest you buy some rotors & race pads from Porterfield in California. Its a lots less $ than the Brambo system but its still a big improvement over stock and a lot less $ than Ferrari parts. Porterfield costs under $1,000 for all 4 corners I can actually outbrake BBLM race cars on the track now and they weigh like 1000# more than my 512TR. I would also suggest some nice SPARCO seats and some racing harnesses | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2002 |
Peter Have you experimented with the lower cost stuff first? Fluid - I have had good results with Motul 600 and pads - I have had good results with Porterfield R4-S Philip | ||
| Peter (Bubba)
Junior Member Username: Bubba Post Number: 250 Registered: 5-2002 |
I am taking my 512TR down to the track in 4 weeks. Which brakes would be good replacements for the factory standard ones? How much would it cost? Thanks! |