| Author | Message | ||
| Bill White (Nc_newbie)
New member Username: Nc_newbie Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2003 |
I broke one at low RPM on a Fiat and only bent a couple of valves. The previos owner of my Ferrari broke one at cruising speed and only broke a couple of valves on one side with no piston damage. The previous owner of a Porsche 911 I one owned had a chain to skip due to a colapsed tensioner and it got the bulk of the engine.... Bottom line is it depends on the RPM, load, throttle, etc... basic physics... something has to absorb enough energy to stop the engine... If your foot is in the gas then it is the energy to stop the engine plus the energy the pistons firing deliver. If your foot is in the gas plus you never push in the clutch then all of the above plus the energy to stop the car. If you can not drive the car the way you want to without worry then replace the belts. Personally, I think 5 yrs or 30K is a worry free amount of risk.... There are all ways bigger worries... Moral: If you hear a bad engine noise take your foot off the gas and mash the clutch... | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2001 |
If one is VERY lucky like Sparetireless apparently was, the belt only skips a few teeth. Just enough to let the valves kiss the piston without breaking through or snapping the valve itself. A nice mechanical lock, definitely better than doing a through job of destroying the innards of an engine. | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2001 |
I know what it sounds like from personal experience too, fortunetly not in a Ferrari. I had a piston break at speed in an Alfa Romeo and I dropped a valve in a Jaguar at low RPM. I stopped the Jag quickly but smoke was pouring out of the exhaust pipes almost instantly. I pulled the spark plug and inserted the entire length of an 12 inch screwdriver without hitting anything. I ended up with a nice paper weight, a piston with a 2 inch diameter hole in the top. I gave the pieces of the valve to my uncle who was a metallurgist. He said that the valve stem had been cracked for some time and the valve head literaly fell off. I ended up buying a used short block from a friend for $30, try that in a Ferrari. | ||
| John Moretti (Moretti)
New member Username: Moretti Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2001 |
I get the belts done every 2-3 years as that is what the manual says and having owned many FIAT124 sports I know that if you leave the belts for more than 20-25K kms it WILL break and the belts in the 3x8s are the same. My brother and i had 2 belts break (at exactly 22K kms !!) on our cars and were damn lucky both times where all we needed to do was put new belts back on and off she went. We checked the internals (pulled the heads off/on in <2 hours!) retensioned the belts and replaced the tensioner bearings (these are cheap and should always be changed I would recommend) BTW just had the Gt4 booked in for a belt and tensioner service which includes all the belts in the car and it cost $780 everything included. This is about $450 USD so I see you guys are paying top dollar and you have a bigger market and many more dealers so I would have thought the price would have been lower, oh well  I would have done the belts myself but I ran out of time thanks to fixing the headlights (thanks Ferrarichat guys!) | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2002 |
At 8000 rpm it sounds just like Mike said. Never done it to a Ferrari motor, but done it to other motors (Note not because I was a dork and ran the belts forever, but other race related failures caused belts to brake) and it is not a pleasant sound at all ... especially when you can hear bits hitting the bonnet, and then have to walk the back straight them and others up ... The only correction I would make to Mikes amusing but accurate steps is: step 4: Optional, but for the true effect,,, empty bank account! But maybe some of you have bigger wallets than I  Pete | ||
| Gomer (Sparetireless)
New member Username: Sparetireless Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2003 |
It does not sound like that, its just smooth running and then it stalls, then it won't turn over. It happened to me when I tried to do a rapid take off, not a full burn out but just a rapid take off with 47,000 miles on the original belt and about 6 years of age. So you need to change it, but not every 2-3 years. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2002 |
Excellent Mike, excellent. Sums up this stupid thread perfectly! Pete | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2001 |
>>> Not that I want anyone to relieve a nightmare, but can someone describe the symptoms of belt failure/slippage? Thanks. >>> step 1: Obtain 1 gal metal paint can or large metal coffee can. step 2: Toss in a handfull of marbles, close lid step 3: Shake violently (This is what it sounds like.) step 4: Optional, but for the true effect,,, empty wallet! | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 120 Registered: 11-2002 |
And amazingly this thread continues ... how many times does everybody have to chime in and say replace the belts as part of normal servicing to enjoy your Ferrari to the fullest. I guess I will find that brick wall and hit my head against it really, really hard ... Infact drive on, yep destroy another Ferrari motor and the we can all laugh and say I told you so, and buy it off you for near to nothing ... the cost of the engine fix will be high but will still work out cheaper than buying one that has been maintained! Pete ps: Would love to go racing again | ||
| Gomer (Sparetireless)
New member Username: Sparetireless Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2003 |
My experience is that the car does not run funny, it does not slip, it does not do anything weird, its just runs fine and then the motor quits. It will not start. It will not turn over. It cannot be pushed in gear, it is just locked up and it does not make much noise. When you look at the geared teeth on the belt, it looks like maybe 5-8 teeth came off. This happened on a car I had some years ago. It is not that hard to fix. Just pull the heads, change the affected valves, do all new valve seats as long as its out and then change the one or two pistons that got hit and then change the rod bearings. It quite simple to repair really. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 867 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>The valves will hit the pistons; Trust me when it happens you will know.<< Yep...and the bill will take the funny right out of funny noise...LOL. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 523 Registered: 10-2002 |
The valves will hit the pistons; Trust me when it happens you will know. | ||
| Leonardo Soccolich (Lens)
Junior Member Username: Lens Post Number: 239 Registered: 3-2001 |
Not that I want anyone to relieve a nightmare, but can someone describe the symptoms of belt failure/slippage? Thanks. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jim, I never would of thought of that one. Its the first time it happened, but extremely worthy of checking out next week during the 30K..Thanks... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 521 Registered: 10-2002 |
Peter If that happened after you hit a bump it may be caused by chassis flexing due to rust. That happened to my TR. When your engine comes out for service check this out. If needed clean up rust, weld reenforcing braces and repaint. This could be the cause I'm not saying it is. Hope not. Best Jim | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2003 |
While driving last night, my 308 popped out of gear and made a noise that I thought was one of the belts. The ' Ohhhh 'F' word phrase was the first thing that came out of my mouth. Once I realized what actually happened, my pulse went back down to its usual 90 from about 200! This will certainly make me get the 30K mile service a bit sooner | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks for the detailed breakdown, Tom. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 459 Registered: 10-2002 |
Valves hit pistons,gets a bit noisy. | ||
| Leonardo Soccolich (Lens)
Junior Member Username: Lens Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2001 |
Any particular sounds, smoke, etc? Does the car still start, run? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 455 Registered: 10-2002 |
Worse than digiplex failure, a little better that ventilated block. | ||
| Leonardo Soccolich (Lens)
Junior Member Username: Lens Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2001 |
What exactly are the symptoms of a timing belt failure? | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2002 |
I do not think the prices quoted for a 30K service are out of line for a FoX service. I was quoted by one FoX for 30K service at 32 hours of labor (at $110/hr = $3488) parts were $700 excluding any work to the WP, and excluding cam belt tensioners. The same shop identified the shift shaft seals as needing replacing and quoted 6 hours of labor ($654) and about $75 in parts (ratio more in line with Henryk's experience). I do think Ferrari's tend to be labor intensive, in part due to the packaging constraints of the mid-engine set up, and invariably with 308s which this post focuses on, due to older designs which are more labor intensive (vis shims versus HLAs on 355s/other more modern machinery). I am also gradually doing more work on the car myself but, due to lack of knowledge and time, I have drawn a fairly tight line to date between what I'll do myself (e.g., control arm bushes) and what I'll have someone do for me (putting on an HPX, machining new distributor cover plates etc). One of the things that makes this possible is this forum and the ability to drawn on the experiences of others here. Keep it up. Philip | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2524 Registered: 9-2001 |
here are the basics of 30k on a 8 cylinder - some will vary - Replace Air Filter - Replace Fuel Filter - Replace A/C Belt - Replace Alternator / Water Pump Belt Replace Spark Plugs - Replace Timing Belts and Tensioner Bearings - Replace Cam Seals and Housing O-Rings - Replace Valve Cover Gaskets - Replace Distributor Seals and Housing Gaskets - Replace Distributor Cap Gaskets - Replace Cam End Cover Gaskets - Adjust Valves - Bleed Brake Lines/ new fluid - Change Oil/Filter - Change Tranny Gear Fluid - Inspection/Service of Air Conditioning System - Inspect all Lines (fuel, oil, water) and replace if necessary - Replace entire Coolant - Pressurize Coolant System, check for leaks | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think that this thread has been really helpful. In particular, I really appreciated Henryk's responses. JRV, what exactly is done in addition to a basic "belts and tensioners only and the AC service on 2V 308" that would constitute a full service? Thanks in advance. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 427 Registered: 8-2001 |
JRV: Overall I would tend to agree with most of what you say. Your advice in the past has been most helpful. Thanks. While my experiences with cars are not nearly as extensive as yours, I can give some very recent concrete examples: FIRST: Replaced an inner drive shaft seal on my TR, going to the differential.....seal was $32, $38 with shipping.....dealer quoted about 4 hours worth of work. I did this myself, and even used the lathe to machine a seal driver, out of aluminum, to make the job easier. Dealer's hourly rate is $100+ per hour. SECOND: I inquired about a major service for my TR, which will probably need it soon....was told about $7500, assuming just the basic service. From reading posts on Fchat, it seems that the parts are anywhere from $750-$900, assuming just the basic service. There are no doubt many examples where the part is very expensive, compared to the labor, in which case your formula would definitely apply. Maybe I have been lucky so far. I can relate a few more examples, but these would be from years ago, in which case, I do not recall the costs off hand. I have learned how to use these tools. I have gone to adult evening classes for instruction on welding, and many classes in machine shop training. These were all hands on courses. "Catastrophic Mistakes" are made by "catastrophic ineptness". The Ferrari engine is a MACHINE, NO more and NO less. If one doesn't take the necessary time to properly take something apart, and put it back together again, then, YES, mistakes will occur. But then, this is also true of a Chevy motor. There is nothing "mystique" about a piece of machinery, such as a car engine!!!!!!!! How can you compare working on a car, to that of a doctor working on a patient? While I have done BOTH, I don't think that you have. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 765 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I have a 308, and I'm unsure about taking it to the mechanic because I fear him saying "that'll be $5,000 to fix up".<< Randall, First off find a mechanic you trust and that you're not afraid of. Any "good, professional" mechanic is all about building a long term client/mechanic 'relationship', not about 'hitting homeruns'. If the mechanic is experienced with Ferrari's and honest, he'll inspect the car, usually no charge or minimal charge and provide a comprehensive list of "service operations and parts" that your particular car needs. When I give a report to a client (like a PPI), it includes everything I see as needing attention, weak or questionable as to longevity. No one however is under any obligation to address any issue. However if one was to address the issues the list has a desending order of importance to bring the car back to tip top shape. Guys on a tight budget simply work down the list of needs as time & money permits. I own cars also and can't always just cut checks. After you recieve your list of needs from one source it's easy enough to get a second opinion. Personally I like to show the customer what is wrong and fully explain why it is important or relivant to overall condition and reliability. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 764 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>mainly because everything on a Ferrari fits just right......hard to make a mistake.<<< Oh really...then why does this board exist filled with questions? If I'm not mistaken there are even threads descibing catastrophic "mistakes". >>. It seemed that about 90% was in labor....VERY high<<< You might need to check the batteries in your calculator...I just posted some actual numbers, based on full and complete servicing of several components and the mix was close to 60% Labor - 40% parts, not bad considering that labor includes the shop "buying the tools & equip" neccesary and paying all the overhead. >>>I am on my 8th Ferrari.<<< Uhhhhh...Hmmmmm....worked on all yourself? Reminds me of the super stars that apply with me from time to time, I ask about qualifications, they reply...I'm The Worlds Best with Tons of Experience...why in the last 5 yrs alone I've worked in more than 20 shops....!!! >>>If it wasn't for me doing the repairs, I would have had only one Ferrari, <<< One still running I'll bet. Read above. Reminds me of the country Doctor that taught himself everything he knows. He says, I used to have 10 patients, but 9 got sick and died. >>>>This savings allowed me to buy things like a car lift, lathe, vertical mill, welding equipment, and a lot of tools. I figure I got these all FREE!!!!......<<< And taught yourself everything you know about using them to boot!! Free Tools, Free Education, Next It's Free Parts...then FREEEEE FREEEEE FREEEEE everything!!! WooooHooooo | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 425 Registered: 8-2001 |
There must be a trend in people doing their own service on a Ferrari, including belts. I am on my 8th Ferrari. When I bought my first one, a 308 20 years ago, I "cringed" at the repair prices quoted to me by the dealer. After doing them myself, I laughed at how cheap it was to do. It seemed that about 90% was in labor....VERY high. After doing several repairs I have concluded that the Ferrari was easier to repair than a Chevy......mainly because everything on a Ferrari fits just right......hard to make a mistake. If it wasn't for me doing the repairs, I would have had only one Ferrari, and then would have sold it. I can understand someone taking it in to a dealer to service, if that person wasn't mechanically inclined.....but, be prepared to pay, and pay a lot. Maybe I'm missing something, but replacing cam belts is relatively easy....I have done this on a Dino, 308, 328, and Mondial. During the years I have saved a lot of money, and enjoyed having a number of Ferraris. This savings allowed me to buy things like a car lift, lathe, vertical mill, welding equipment, and a lot of tools. I figure I got these all FREE!!!!......just with the labor savings of doing the work on the Ferraris myself. Of course, this is now one of my hobbies. | ||
| Randall Booth (Randall)
New member Username: Randall Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2003 |
JRV- What do you mean by ".....brought back to decent condition, which requires extensive servicing." What type of costs are you talking about here? I have a 308, and I'm unsure about taking it to the mechanic because I fear him saying "that'll be $5,000 to fix up". | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 759 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Sounds too good to be true, even though I know you are a sincere person. <<< Dr. I, it's true but if you read it carefully it's basically belts and tensioners only and the AC service on 2V 308's. Generally a 'belt only job' is on very low mile cars that have sat around and the guy just wants "belt comfort", just in case he ever wants to go past the speed limit. Actually a lot of the older cars I service have had one to many quikie services and need to be brought back to decent condition, which requires extensive servicing. But once in awhile there are garage queens that don't need very much to freshen them up. BTW: how did the Daytona carb tuning work out? did you get a Color Tune and give it a whirl? | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 189 Registered: 5-2002 |
JRV why don't you visit SC and do three of my cars that need bels...etc,, I will pay the 1200 per car gladly, in cash no less...Sounds too good to be true, even though I know you are a sincere person. Where are you located? | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 655 Registered: 3-2001 |
Lawrence is right. It doesn't take too long. I pulled the pass. tank to change the a/c hoses. The worst part is draining the gas and many of the hoses are stubborn. The only difference is that I didn't remove the caliper. My tank cleared without too much trouble. It would be much easier with the caliper removed though but it can be done without removing it. It does give you a lot of room to work. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 486 Registered: 4-2002 |
I can get the tank out in a morning. I have done it twice. The tank comes out through the wheel well with the rear brake rotor removed. I also remove all fan belts and the big aluminum coolant line in that area. The tank can be removed through this space. Put your tongue on your third molar on your upper right side and turn the tank just so to get it out. But it will come out. Make a mental note of how you got it out (its rotated position) so you can easily get it back in. Or take a picture of its position as it comes out. I replace the 4 small hoses at the top of the tank. There is a larger hose (also fabric covered) behind the compressor. I cut this one off and replace it as well. The hoses harden and are difficult to deal with. A ratchet type box end wrench is very useful for removing the clamps that hold the tank straps to the body. I remove the drain plug from the crossover pipe between the two tanks to drain any remaining fuel. Don't mix up your compressor shims. I mark them as they come out. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lawrence, how 'bout a time/pain estimate on removing the gas tank as you described? Thinking about doing a belt service with this approach. thx | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2002 |
Guys, You're supposed to replace the oil uin the AC compressor...Oh...what...every 10-20 years or so. or a perfect oppurtunity would be when doing the belts anyway. service specs are in the OM or WSM...doesn't hurt the compressors feeling to get new o-rings and schraeder valves once a decade either. keep them doggies rollin, RawwwwHiiiddde ;-) | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks, gents, for the good technical information. This was the kind of stuff I was looking for. (I wasn't looking for a fight, just facts instead of theory.) Can you use a stud puller, or is best just to use the traditional 2-nut method? Does the gas tank drop down? (I'll have to look at the car to figure it out.) Thanks again. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 485 Registered: 4-2002 |
I take the long way around. I remove the gas tank and set the compressor on wood blocks where the gas tank was located. It is time consuming and a PITA but gives really good access and I don't open the refrigerant lines. I have no way to collect the refrigerant and I don't want to use an alternate refrigerant in the 328. Fortunately, I only do it once every 5 years. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 653 Registered: 3-2001 |
The compressor can be held on the side with heavy duty wire ties. It makes for a tighter workspace though. The carb 308s have studs that hold the compressor to the bracket and the QVs have bolts. For the studs I have would put 2 nuts on the stud and unscrew the stud from the compressor. Also if you wanted to remove the compressor and have the equipment you can recover the freon and then hold it in a tank and put it back in when you are ready. R-12 is getting more and more expensive. Last time I checked locally it was $38 per can with a 609 license. | ||
| Randall Booth (Randall)
New member Username: Randall Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2003 |
cars count as one | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 178 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV, "I charge about 10-12 hours to replace just belts, tensioner bearings and recharge the AC." JRV save yourself some time and pull the studs. Have you tried this? No more A/C R&R just move a side. I | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 751 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>You said you charge about 10-12 hours to do the belts, how many have you done?<< Randall, How does the count work...each belt counts as one or each car counts as one? | ||
| Randall Booth (Randall)
New member Username: Randall Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2003 |
JRV- You said you charge about 10-12 hours to do the belts, how many have you done? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2002 |
If you cannot afford to play properly please let the car go to somebody who can. Simple as that. Performance cars cost a little more to run than your average A to B'er. If you do not maintain them correctly your risk serious damage, and also ruining the cars value (yes, prospective buyers will be interested in seeing receipts, etc. for NORMAL maintainence). In the end short cuts cost money, and should not be what Ferrari (or any car, let alone a decent one) is about. Thus please sell and buy an '70s Corvette that will perform similar but has nothing anywhere near as exciting to play with that can go wrong. The longer you neglect, the closer to the dump this poor little Ferrari is getting. Also please refer to my last post in the other 512tr cambelt thread. The belts on a 308 do not cost anywhere near what (some) people are quoting on this board. Pete BTW: Throwing paint on a car does not work with 95% of Ferrari buyers, I personally would much rather buy a mechanically sound and well looked after (rust free) car than a tarted up skin deep wonder. Thus you will not get your money back for painting her, unless you do the maintenance too. One last thing. When you buy a Ferrari you are buying an engine with a pretty body on it ... neglect the engine and what do you have left ... Steve: There is around 10 hours of time on top of the parts as JRV pointed out earlier. The man has to feed his children ... it all adds up and is alot cheaper than the rediculous $4-6,000 quotes earlier. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't see where the $1200 cost comes from. Is it a DIY or did you pay someone to do the service. If you look at it the cost to DIY is $200 for belts and tensioners , about $20 for Freon , and $10 for antifreeze. If you do valves maybe another $50 for gaskets and $25 for oil and filter.So looks like $300 in parts and maybe 20 hours of your time. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 691 Registered: 10-2001 |
JRV, my understanding of F1 is there is so much secrecy that they are not allowed to tear apart engines at all. The teams wrap them up and return them to Ferrari (whomever) and in the secret room at the factory they are torn apart, inspected and rebuilt. The teams get new stuff out of nessecity to keep the technology from becoming known to the other teams. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 744 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>> I still think it would be better to buy a freshly rebuilt engine for $7.5k instead of paying 4-6k for a preventative maintenance.<< Randall, you might be on to something there. I know in the upper forms of racing, F1, etc., they don't bother with maintanance, they just 'unplug' the old used units and 'plug in' the brand new stuff and off they go. Hasn't caught on for street cars for some reason though. | ||
| djmonk (Davem)
Junior Member Username: Davem Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2002 |
JRV I think the dentist saying you are referring to is: "You don't have to brush all your teeth, just the one's you want to keep" | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 742 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Is that $1200 w or w/o parts? << With parts - 2 Belts, 2 Tensioner Bearings (complete), 3lbs Freon, 1 Gallon coolant. Includes: 1 - R&R AC Compressor, 2 - Evac Freon, 3 - Drain Coolant, 4 - Pull Housings, 5 - Replace Both Belts & Tensioner Bearings, 6 - Re-Install AC Compress. , 7 - adjust all belts, 8 - fill with coolant, bleed cooling system, 9 - evacuate & recharge AC system, 10 - check oil. 11 - check tires & lights, etc. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 222 Registered: 2-2002 |
Matt: Since your dad is 71 and does not want to spend money on the car, why don't you do the following. Sign an agreement that you will inheriant the car, or have him gift the car to you. This way you have a free Ferrari and can recoupe your investment towards the service. Worst case is that you have free use of a Ferrari and only have to pay for the service. Not a bad deal. | ||
| Randall Booth (Randall)
New member Username: Randall Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2003 |
Is that $1200 w or w/o parts? I still think it would be better to buy a freshly rebuilt engine for $7.5k instead of paying 4-6k for a preventative maintenance. Then at least you have a spare engine to rebuilsd slowly to your own liking. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 741 Registered: 11-2002 |
Matthew, Ferrari service is not radically more expensive than many other types of High Performance Engines. The quotes for $3K - $6K are for COMPLETE SERVICES (at honest shops ) and are FAR MORE (at honest shops) than putting on two belts and slamming the hood. EVERY CAR requires SERVICE to Maintain it's reliability and overall condition. Fudge on Service, Reliability goes down along with resale value. People don't mind buying "used cars", but No One wants to buy a "Used Up Car". The comparisons in price you are trying to make aren't really the true or whole story. You need to start thinking about Machines from a perspective that can stand back from only the $$$$$ to do your learning curve justice, Machines have Thousands of parts of which Hundreds of those parts needs serviceing and attention now and then. If those hundreds of details don't get attention in a timely manner "they can break", when that happens it's unavoidable that the cost will include the original part pushed beyond it's limit and all the collaterel damaage created. Service is Cheaper than Repair, and as the other old saying goes (from Dentists I believe) You can pay Now, or You can Pay Later, But You will pay. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1608 Registered: 8-2002 |
Matt, Get the belts done. No point in having a great looking car if it just sits around. JRV, can you cut costs by reusing the belt? ;) | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2002 |
JRV, thanks again for the detail. $800 to $1200 sounds significantly more reasonable. (I got the $4-6k figure from a post below.) That may be a good place to start with this car. Get the mechanicals in order, then maybe paint this fall. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 740 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>$4-6k seems like very, very expensive insurance against $8-12 in a worst case failure.<< Hey that's half price even with those unbelievable numbers and about 2 months less time in the shop. >>How many hours does a cambelt change take on a 2-valve V-8?<< I charge about 10-12 hours to replace just belts, tensioner bearings and recharge the AC. I suppose you could do the rear belt in about 2 hrs, leave the old front belt on, then the worst case only one side of the motor can have catastrophic failure..(only one side>>hehehehahahahohoho)... If a belt breaks (shears it's teeth) the minimum damage is bent valves with a high degree of possibility that a valve can crack a piston crown, which nessecitates pulling the engine to replace the piston/pistons, valves and any possibly bent rods. The normal fee range I've seen to "just replace belts" on a 2V 308 is $800-$1200, Parts & Labor..pulling ONE Head prices start At about $4K and can escalate rapidly depending on circumstances. | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks for posting the thread, Matt. I didn't mean to be inflammatory earlier. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that I didn't believe James. (My apologies to you, James. I didn't mean that at all.) Let me explain. My dad is 71, and although his 308 needs some help, he isn't going to spend any money on it. Its cosmetics are bad, but I've always thought of it as reliable mechanically. I suppose I'm trying to justify putting the first money towards paint instead of belts. I'm only trying to gauge the likelihood of belts failing, and whether this is a scare tactic to make owners pay for costly services they wouldn't otherwise opt for. (I also don't mean to paint all service departments with the same broad brush; I just want to know the realities. I'm sure that there are very honest mechanics here. But I also feel that many Ferrari owners pay far more than necessary for their peace of mind, just as they do for exhaust systems. ) To tell you the truth, I forgot that had posted the same question a week. I also apologize for my poor Ferrarichat manners. Also, thanks to those who have posted helpful replies. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2485 Registered: 9-2001 |
a 30k (more than belts) at a dealer for a 2 valve 308 is prob less than 3k. Not sure sure where the 4-6k cost is coming from | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1605 Registered: 8-2002 |
Matthew Ring a bell? http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/195827.html | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1603 Registered: 8-2002 |
Matt, Your dad has a 308. And referring to James, you did not believe his belt broke...remember? You were asking about VIN's and some other BS. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 649 Registered: 3-2001 |
If the timing belts teeth shear off then yes the cams are out of time with the crank (pistons). Then some of the valves will meet the pistons. Are you wanting the hours for a 30K or just for changing the t-belts/tensioner bearings? | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2002 |
Sorry, James. Did I double post? | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2002 |
JRV, Does the piston crush the valves, tappets, and other things? Does this only happen on one bank at a time? I have an 81 GTSi. If you go by the milage, it probably doesn't need new belts. If you go by age, it definitely does. $4-6k seems like very, very expensive insurance against $8-12 in a worst case failure. How many hours does a cambelt change take on a 2-valve V-8? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 398 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matthew By asking the same question again do you think you're going to get a different answer? | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1598 Registered: 8-2002 |
If he did, his dad would be mad | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
New member Username: Peters Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dear Matt; I hope you have not experienced this yourself. I just purchased a '77 308 without records. Its ready to go to the shop for a 30K mile service. Like most owners, we spend $4-6K for peace of mind! | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 444 Registered: 2-2002 |
Not me but a close friend, on a Mondial QV. Net repair was a little over $10K. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 739 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Has this happened?<< Uhhhh yea. >> If so, what was the extent of the damage?<< bent and broken bits & pieces - $8K - $12K on the ones I've repaired. | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2002 |
I'm looking for anyone who has had a cambelt fail on any model Ferrari. Has this happened? If so, what was the extent of the damage? Thanks in advance. | ||
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