| Author | Message | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 207 Registered: 8-2002 |
<<ferrari>> IF this is true Ferrari is lurking. Maybe they should try to make a decent product and we would not have to fu*k with it. | ||
| anthony s (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2003 |
I am rigging up a 256 eprom emulator using 256 ram and a bit of hardware logic, to make changes a little quicker, than UV erasing everytime. | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2003 |
I am Here Bill. Ferrari did not take kindly to me cracking this simplistic code. I promised them "mum is the word". These discussions are way overthought. simple rs-232/lpt1 eprom chip burners do the job quite well. old school ascii i/o simple to dumb out in c or pascal. even ol' fortran can decompile/recompile in real time. | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2002 |
In the initial reply there is no CRC's at all. ISO-9141 (the Pre-OBD-II generic version) is a WAY old protocol. I'll be curious to see what Keyword the 512TR gives back. In the end, I can always reverse the 348, 355, 456, and 512 brains to completion. Actually that was my intent a while back, as I was trying to help a "very well known Ferrari mechanic" (you'd all know whom I was talking 'bout) but the project never seemed to go anywhere and I have way more things to do with my time than wait for someone to get things going. ;) Jim | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 205 Registered: 8-2002 |
gee all of a sudden roger who ripped a chip is gone. I e-mailed him but no reply. | ||
| anthony s (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks Jim for the heads up. I haven't been able to get the 9141 standard, unless I buy it from SAE. That's because I wasn't sure whether it will apply to the OBDI cpu. Now that you have given me a better clue  , I will go ahead and purchase a copy. One last question, is there any CRC type replies I have to provide, or is that specified in the standard as well? There are 2 (or 3 can' remember, I have to check again) lines on the 512 cpu. they are not labeled K and L in the schematics, and I wouldn't expect them to be so. But I can work out which is which, just from the way you can retrieve the fault codes, by toggling one of the lines. Anyway, thanks again. really appreciate it. | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2002 |
Anthony, If I gave you any more of a roadmap, I'd be building the road.. LOL Listen: This is SIMPLE.. GO LOOK UP ISO-9141. IF I had an electronic copy of the standard (which is available in the USA from ANSI) I'd *give* it to you, but I don't.. paper only and no scanner. It details the voltage levels (but you can buy a nice convertor for under $50).. the handshake etc. That's the whole point of the "standard". What you keep missing is that ISO-9141 IS NOT AN OBD-II STANDARD.. it was "borrowed" and a specific implementation of it (called 9141-2) is USED in OBD-II. The SAME standard was used by Bosch on ALL their ECU's from about 1987-88 thru 1995. So, what do you have to do.. get an interface, plug into your car.. and try all the addresses from 00 thru FF until you get (a) response(s) Note the two bytes you get after the synchronizing 55 and get back to me. Maybe I can help with the rest if they are as I suspect. If you READ the standard I keep telling you to READ (9141) you'll understand what those 2 bytes are. They are called KEYBYTES.. but not KEY in the cryptographic sense.. KEY in the "pointer" sense. They indicate the format of the rest of the data and how you communicate. A friend of mine even has an interface available (Don't let "OBD-II" confuse you.. the underlying PHYSICAL LAYER of the protocol is identical!) http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/obdii_hardware.htm Ferrari's aren't my livelyhood.. I'll be happy to help ANYONE figure out diagnostics for them gratis... but being NOT my livelyhood, I can't really devote massive effort either. From the wiring diagrams for your car, you should be able to figure out which pins on your diag connector connect to the ECU.. and whether you have just the K line or both K and L. Get your interface.. attach it properly.. and try all of the 5 baud ADDRESSES. If you don't feel like whipping up software from scratch.. see: http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/obdii_software.htm Again: Don't let the OBD-II moniker fool you. The OBD-II ISO protocol is just a special case of the generic one.. aka ADDRESS 33 (I think it's 33) Many BOSCH ECU's are on Address 10. Cars with DUAL ECU's are usually 10/11, 10/12, or 10/14. BTW, the 5 baud isn't a heartbeat. If this protocol is as I suspect, it works as follows.. send the ADDR at 5 baud, with specific parity/etc down L, ECU replies down K with "55" at a specific baud rate.. you need to autobaud to that rate and listen.. it will then send you (after a short delay) 2 bytes.. the KEYBYTES. You then send it the INVERSE of the last byte It sends another byte.. And so on.. with the Inverses.. until you get an 03 (this is from memory). That completes the "sync" you get a bunch of numbers from the ECU. I just took a look.. the ADDRESS for the DME in the 512tr should be 0x10. Now, there are two of them, so either there is a connection to EACH individual ECU. I would try 0x10 for the 348 as well. Jim | ||
| anthony s (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2003 |
I am aware of the baud rates. Like a 5 Baud heart beat that needs to be sent to keep the comms alive etc. so you mean to tell me that 03H is not a hex sequence? I think we are getting tied up on mnemonics. As for leaving me breadcrumbs it's really not helping much. This is you livelihood, and I appreciate the fact you not divulging anything. That's cool with me. Amongs my questions were: do I need a level shifter to interface to the Packard connector? what is the voltage swing on this connector? this will hepl me assertain how I tackle the RS232 interface to this. I am not asking how to do this. You gave me a OBDII standard, when we were discussing what is obviously a OBDI computer on the 348. Do these two standards behave the same, electrically and on a protocol level? no one ever seems to know this answer, or is not willing to let on. That's why we ask in a forum like this. We are sharing information. I don't mind doing all the work, but if someone already has done this, why re-invent the wheel. If a professional doesn't want to give out any info, please don't tease with breadcrumbs. Please, don't take this the wrong way. | ||
| Jeffrey Davison (Jeffdavison)
Junior Member Username: Jeffdavison Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2002 |
Rodger, If you're putting these things together in a "group purchase" thing, count me in Got's me a 355 that I like to keep tabs on. Thanks, Jeff Davison | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2002 |
Anthony, It's not even really a "hex" sequence initially All ISO 9141-2 is, is a specific implementation of ISO 9141 comms for OBD-II. You need the generic comms. Send out a single byte address at a specific baud rate/bit length and such.. sync to a new baud rate and then go from there. I'm more than happy to hand you a road map, but it's your job to drive there. ;) What I was trying to explain to you is that it isn't just a simple case of having the right bytes flowing, there are baud rate, autobaud, and parity/etc concerns to make it "go". | ||
| anthony s (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2003 |
isn't ISO-9141-2 the OBDII standard? these computers are OBDI. does this still apply? Also, I did correct myself in a later message saying hex/ascii, just in case there is no ascii equivalent of the hex sequence. | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sorry, but it's not an "ASCII sequence" Go look up the following: "ISO-9141" and for the OBD folks "ISO-9141-2" You send the control unit a wakeup message, then sync to it's return.. then start the data Doable with a PC, better in dedicated hardware. Jim C. (Designs diagnostic equipment for a living ;) | ||
| anthony sarkis (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2003 |
it's more for the sensor readings. It makes it easier to monitor and adjust the TPSes. I have used voltmeters before, but on the 512TR, it's a pain to get to them. They are under the air intake manifolds. They are definitely easier to get to on the 348. So it would be good to have all the data coming in at once, on one display, like a laptop or something. Hence my question on the hex/ascii sequence needed to start dumping data from the ECU connection. I guess it alos doesn't hurt in fault diagnosis. | ||
| James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
New member Username: Dr_ferrari Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2002 |
with regard to the SD1 system, what information are you looking for? diagnostics or sensor information? Quite honestly, the self diagnostics of the 1990 348 is adaquate for most customer related problems and the workshop manual for the 348 details the procedure for flashing the codes and a code list. | ||
| anthony sarkis (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2003 |
Roger, Do you know the ASCII sequence that is needed to start the flow of data from the Packard connector? Also, is there any voltage level shifting needed from the connector to an RS232 interface? or is it pretty much rs232 level compatible. Anthony | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 542 Registered: 4-2002 |
Roger, nice one, keep us 348 boys informed of progress | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 184 Registered: 8-2002 |
Where is roger? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 429 Registered: 8-2001 |
Roger: Can you do anything for an 88 TR, or an 83 Boxer? Thanks. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 182 Registered: 8-2002 |
Roger, Very cool!!! Can you rip me two spyder ECU chips? I'll pay! [email protected] | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2003 |
Billy: just sucked the 94 Spyder config from a friends ECU !! Have it running on the 90' 348ts. Seems to run well. Median Cat temp seems lower though. | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2003 |
the eprom chip is fully programmable with the right equipment, I have managed to now adjust idle speed, fuel, cat exhaust temp sensor. Check it: A hand made EPROM reader. It can read and burn 27256 / 27512 EPROMs. Connects via LPT port.  | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 181 Registered: 8-2002 |
Roger, I did not think you could tweak the ECU without changing the prom chip. Also, an easy thing to do would be to copy the spyder ECU chip to be replaced in all earlier ECU's this would give the best programing to date and the most HP/torque. Can you do that? Do you have the chip buring /reading tools? Also the SD1 reads everycode in the WSM plus some others that are not in the manual. Of course you want them all. If you have an SD1 in your possesion you can copy that? | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 476 Registered: 3-2001 |
The Baum Tool does work to read the codes as I have one (I had to make a custom harness as Ferrari puts it data out on non standard pin). The problem is that once you have the code there is no source to convert it as Ferrari does not publish it codes. The SD 1 & 2 do not give out code #'s but actually an engish description. I can reset the check engine light and read exhaust info with the Baum. | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2003 |
Greetings: also working on an "ECU Tweaker". Simple software to adjust ECU settings. | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hans: Forza Data ? | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2003 |
Rob: I am in the business. I have have been building complex wide area networks for years. Worked with Cisco Systems for 10 years as a field consultant. I have numerous vendors that have access to all types of systems from ATM to Diagnostic tools. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 842 Registered: 4-2002 |
Baum has been advertising such devices in Forza. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 184 Registered: 11-2002 |
Roger, how did you get hold of BOTH SD1 & II in less than one day? | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2003 |
Baum has no devices for Ferrari. http://www.baumtools.com | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2003 |
I will try to port this EPROM code into a text editor. If i can gain access to the raw source code, i may be able to port it over to PalmOS or even better PocketPC/Windows. The key issue will be to make a cable that pins out to RS-232 to CF or PCMIA. A notebook could run directly from RS-232. Give me about 10 days....I will post my findings. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 840 Registered: 4-2002 |
Seems to me that I remember Baum Tools selling a generic Ferrari-friendly diagnostic tool. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2002 |
Roger, are you planning on producing some copies? | ||
| bob snow (Resnow)
New member Username: Resnow Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lots of '90 348 parts being sold by [email protected] | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2003 |
Rob: never had an eclipse. I would never drive a mitsu in public !! BTW, i have in my posession an SD1 & SD2. Programming is simple since the memory is EPROM/Flash. I am able to also change the code result to a more logical name. Very simple devices. I could make one of these easily. I am using Packard to RS232 connecting via VTY1100 Terminal Emulation. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2002 |
and, btw, speaking of sourcing from ex-Fcar dealerships, Gentry Lane appears to have closed their Fcar dealership portion of their operation(they're selling out lots of goodies on ebay). Thinkin' that an ex or soon to be ex-dealer might part with proprietary goodies. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2002 |
someone might wanna contact Ferrari of Los Gatos(in CA), as i believe there was a post on Fchat talking about how they're giving up(or having it jerked) their Ferrari authorized new car sales operation(altho i also think they'll still be in the repair biz & used Fcar biz). They might be a source or know of a source for one of these gizmos. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 180 Registered: 11-2002 |
The system can certainly be reverse engineered, but at what cost? What's the market? Volume? I've done a little research. One thing I came up with is one can buy a complete OBD1 diagnostic set up for the Diamond Star Motors cars, Eclipse/Talon. Cheap, too. Works on a Palm. Beautiful. It's because a guy like you (Roger) has an Eclipse and reverse engineered the system. He put little value on his time 'cause he's an enthusiast with a full-time gig. But the market is huge, tens of thousands of potential tuners with $400 who love the system. For Ferrari tuners, different story. Market is smaller. So who's game? Let's see: How many of you would invest $2,000 into a full blown SD1 or SDII system? How about $10,000? Now I guess the market is near nil. How 'bout $200, now maybe we can sell 2000 systems, which is $400,000 gross. Does that recoup development costs and a fair profit for all who contributed? The DSM guys probably sold 5000 or more, bigger market. Inquiring minds would like to know. ps. SD1 communicates via Packard connector, two prong, one for each bank. Connector is near each ecu inside the driver compartment. | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2003 |
what about aftermarket/third party ? Does anyone know what type of interface the connection is ? I am a network engineer....so if there is an ability ro connect via RS232 or TTY, i can make a cable and interface with a terminal emulation program. Also, where is the interface located ? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 743 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>As far as I've been able to find, it's a dealer only deal. << I'd make sure any units floating around were'nt obtained in a very questionable way. I'd reccomend getting the original Bill of Sale from the Dealer to whomever. Otherwise one might find themselves involved in a "recieving stolen property" quagmire. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 171 Registered: 11-2002 |
As far as I've been able to find, it's a dealer only deal. Call around, see who'll be able to sell one. Please post your results and/or send me an email, I think there is enough interest that if organized, could help all. I have the experience on both SD1 and II and will be happy to help anyone in the independent zone set it up. | ||
| Roger Green (Rogerg)
New member Username: Rogerg Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2003 |
Greetings: I have a 90 348ts and would like to find one of these SD1 computers. Does anyone know of any sources. I will pay "top dollar" |