| Author |
Message |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1214
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 6:08 pm: | |
I have one of these solenoids in stock if anyone should need it. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 695
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 4:59 pm: | |
Ben L. -- Just wanted to report (before this thread goes to the archive) that the Ace Electric 7-851 solenoid has worked absolutely perfectly up to now (not a single hot mis-start). I also found another Bosch -to- Ace solenoid cross-reference on the Ace Electric website:
http://www.aceelectric.com/PDF/S/SolBG01.pdf
(about page 67 in the .pdf file which is page 65 in the catalog)
that shows the Ace 7-851 replacing the Bosch 0-331-303-032 like you said. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2591
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 11:21 pm: | |
Absolutely as Steve and Bill say, All else is in vain if you don't have a solid ground from the starter to the frame. |
Anthony Randazzo (Antroc)
New member
Username: Antroc
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 9:02 pm: | |
I fixed the TR and my friend has had it for a week. No problems so far. What I did was install a bosch relay in line to the starter.
The car starts alot faster now.
The relay gets wired by taking the wire coming from the ignition to starter and using that to engage the relay. The relay gets 12V directly the battery through the main 12V wire to the starter. Then you run a wire from the relay post that has power when the relay is energized and run that wire to the solenoid. Don't forget the ground wire for the relay.
I hid the relay under the intake runners so you can not see it. I also put heat shrink on the wires so they match the other wires. The only thing you see is an extra blue and red wire to the starter.
This was my last resort because I really didn't want to modify the car. But I allready had the car for two months, checking and rechecking everything so this was the most viable solution without taking the whole car apart to find such a minute loss in current.
hopefully this helps you billy if the new starter didn't. |
billy zissis (89tr)
Junior Member
Username: 89tr
Post Number: 160
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 6:51 pm: | |
Anthony, I've been having this problem for about a year and a half. It started doing when hot now it does when cold as well. I have asked FNA how many ignition switches they have sold to see maybe this was the problem, and they haven't hardly any. Since I have been having the starter rebuilt about three times and still the same problem. I found out that when they rebuild they do not replace everything and sometimes the armature goes bad. I just bought a brand new starter and I am planning on installing it over the weekend. Hopefully this solves all my problems. |
Bill Burris (Bill)
New member
Username: Bill
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 12, 2002 - 10:51 am: | |
Steve's got a great thought here. The engine-to-chassis ground has to be able to handle the load. Check carefully to see if this ground strap needs to be cleaned, tightened or replaced. This is a common area overlooked particularly after the engine or transmission has been out of the car. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 664
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 9:47 am: | |
Anthony -- on reflection, maybe a couple of things to consider:
1. When you measured the "low" voltage on the #50 solenoid terminal during cranking where was the ground probe located? -- if on the solenoid body, the voltage drop could be a high ground resistance between the solenoid-to-starter and/or the starter-to-engine physical connections (rather than the input not being +12V). I cleaned up both of these interfaces very well so I really don't know if this "fixed" my problem or if I really needed a new solenoid. My symptom was exactly like you describe -- when hot, it would always refire OK if done immediately, but if allowed to soak for 15 minutes to a few hours then it might not. And since I never ever had a no start when cold I just couldn't see how it could be the ignition switch (or any other part of the upstream electrical system). I also "tightened-up" the #50 and #15a female spade terminals a bit.
2. The resistance from the #50 terminal to ground measured about ~1.5 ohms (cold) on both my new and old solenoids (although I didn't measure this on the old one in the as-mounted condition). Perhaps something to check cold (just to confirm the solenoid installed during the rebuild is similar), hot when OK, and hot when not starting -- just a thought...
|
Anthony Randazzo (Antroc)
New member
Username: Antroc
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 9:24 pm: | |
The solenoid was replaced on the second rebuild, it has a golden color to it. Today I took the car for a long ride and got it good and hot. It started when I turned it off and then a couple minutes later, but after 30 minutes of sitting it would not start. We checked voltage at the input the starter and it was low, then we tapped the solenoid and it started. When it starts the input voltage is 12v. Now I am going to put a relay in line to the input to the solenoid so that it gets more direct 12v. Hopefully this works, because I have been diagnosising this car for a month. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 663
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 4:44 pm: | |
Ben L. -- ~$35 + shipping (from an A-1 auto parts store in Denver). At least today it's been perfect (with the old solenoid I probably would have had 1 or 2 hot "misses" based on my usage), and it seems to hit as soon as I move the key into the start position; whereas, with the old solenoid, it wouldn't hit until I "bottomed" the key in the start position. I'll give an update in a few months... |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 4:42 pm: | |
I can get any ACE parts at wholesale if anyone ever needs them. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 533
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 4:19 pm: | |
SteveM -
Retail price of ?
I used the keeper.
Let us all know if it solves your problem, both SteveM and Anthony.
-Ben |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 662
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2002 - 11:43 am: | |
Ben L. -- I owe you one! Just installed the Ace Electric Accurate 7-851 solenoid, and like you indicated, it had the exact same terminal configuration as the stock Bosch TR unit (#50 -- for start command and #15a -- an isolated cranking only output). Had to pay the retail price (you must have a business reseller license as the distributor wouldn't sell direct to the public) but still a great deal IMO -- thanks again. I didn't use the keeper as I thought it might interfere with the casting slightly in the unenergized positon -- did you? |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 528
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 5:09 pm: | |
SteveM - I knew you would catch that it's not directly listed in the table. I don't really recall how it was matched up, I think that they actually had to find a bigger Bosch guidebook, nonetheless that is the cross ref. And I'd venture to say it's been about the best ~$20 I've ever spent on the car. Took at most an hour to do the entire swap (incl. clean and lube) at home with no special tools training required (other than how to use a wrench).
Anthony, let us know if that solves your problem or what else it turns out to be.
-Ben
|
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 649
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 3:37 pm: | |
Ben -- thanks a lot for the very complete cross-reference information. I'll try getting one (my TR has a similar "hot" symptom, but usually catches with a few extra start tries so I'm not having to wait -- yet). You didn't hijack this thread -- for ~$20 Anthony you should just try a new solenoid too IMO. One question though Ben -- the 0-331-303-032 number (same on my '91TR) isn't actually shown in the Ace Electric cross-reference tables -- did the local alternator guy just match it up visually? |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 527
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 11:50 am: | |
Sorry to hijack the thread Anthony. But this is a common problem area for TR's, and this is a simple, cheap and sometimes effective solution. Of course it helps to figure out what the real problem is. In my case the old soleniod was getting a bit worn and the heat stress wasn't helping the issuse, it kinda "locked up" when HOT.
I would usually hear no sound at all, and occasionally a clicking when it felt like it wanted to. Once the soleniod had cooled and began moving the car started right away. Was quite embarassing at a gas station after a nice run to sit there with my engine cover up taking up "pump space" for 20 mins. waiting to cool down, so I could take off.
My old unit was a Bosch 0-331-303-032-(532). I replaced it with an Ace Electric "Accurate" 7-851, the local alternator shop wanted $35, the not so local distributor wanted $15.xx + $5.xx shipping. They are exactly the same except for 2 things, the Ace part has a "keeper" to secure the fork and it's a shiny almost chrome silver, the Bosch part is black. Make sure you (clean &) lube (with the proper goop) the starter shaft so that the gears can move without much resistance.
You can see a pic of this part on page 58 (of a 65 page PDF file) here:
http://www.aceelectric.com/PDF/S/Bosch.pdf
for a list of where you can pick one up try here:
http://www.aceelectric.com/Dist.htm
Heck even if it doens't last as long as the Bosch one, I can always pickup another (few) more without spending the ~$100 on the Bosch unit, altho it's been trouble free for almost a year.
-Ben
|
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 648
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 11:44 pm: | |
Ben -- please do. The Bosch part my local auto parts store could get had the right shape, but was missing the extra isolated +12V cranking line output. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 526
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 6:07 pm: | |
SteveM -
The solenoid is a Bosch part, and crosses over to any current maker of solenoids, local cost ~$20. If there is interest I can dig up the make and part number of the one I replaced mine with. Came with a year warranty for that price too.
-Ben
|
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 645
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 12:20 pm: | |
Although you mentioned that you checked the wiring, perhaps all you can do is try to measure the start command line at the starter itself during hot cranking to see if it is actually getting close to +12V under load. Did the "rebuilds" include a new solenoid? (TRs have a rather odd one with an isolated extra output line that only goes +12V during cranking) -- if not, I've noted that http://www.ferraripartsexchange.com lists them for (a reasonable IMO) ~$100. |
Anthony Randazzo (Antroc)
New member
Username: Antroc
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 9:27 pm: | |
The clicking is more of a soft sound because you can not hear it very well if the cooling fans are running. We jumped the starter with a remote starter button when it happens and the starter will engage and turn over the motor. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 640
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 11:20 pm: | |
Anthony -- by "clicks" do you mean:
1. the solenoid plunger actually moves very strongly, but the starter motor doesn't then spin?
or
2. the solenoid makes a soft clicking noise like the plunger is trying to move but it actually doesn't? |
Anthony Randazzo (Antroc)
New member
Username: Antroc
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 10:13 pm: | |
I am working on a 1985 testarossa for a friend of mine and the car will not start when it is hot. the starter just clicks. I had the starter rebuilt twice. Checked all wiring from the ignition switch to the starter.Installed new battery also. Any helpful advice or solution would be appreciated |