| Author | Message | ||
| Ed (Ecsjr)
New member Username: Ecsjr Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2003 |
ooppss forgot to mention model - 1990 348ts | ||
| Ed (Ecsjr)
New member Username: Ecsjr Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2003 |
Anyone know if there is an easy way to install the stock insulation without removing the entire lid? I am ordering the stock OE stuff (please leave me out of the concourse/non-concourse battle) and want to install it myself. I took a quick look, but did not see an easy way to do this. Am i missing something? or is the removal of the whole lid the way to do this? | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 236 Registered: 7-2002 |
Has anyone ever used this stuff? The underside of my 348 TT has NO insulation! I'm considering using this............ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3101050710&category=undefined | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2667 Registered: 9-2001 |
so Ferrari had no say in it? By the looks of the other post covering this topic it did. BTW I love that we have these discussions every few weeks | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1764 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom. Fiat authorized the change. Fiat contolled and still controls the production and marketing of all road cars. | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 366 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks Teach, but in fact I do know the history. I also know that the first production Ferrari was the 166 Inter. Yet I don't believe I have ever heard a Ferrari purist claiming that only 2+2 Ferraris are Ferraris and everything else isn't. By definition, a purist is one who adheres strictly and often excessively to a tradition. In this case, I prefer to highlight this definition mostly for the latter part, excessively. You may in fact believe that all 8 cylinder Ferraris are Dinos...you are wrong. Regardless of your interpretation of the events of that time, only automobiles labeled as Dinos are Dinos. In fact, you do a disservice to loyal Dino owners and dare I say it � purists. It is a simple fact that Ferrari (and yes, that is Ferrari, not Dino) has produced more 8-cylinder Ferrari production cars then any other in their history. All of those that reached the public as Ferraris are indeed Ferraris. In the end, nothing personal I just think you are wrong no matter how you argue it. The fact that you continue to argue simply indicates that you are excessive in your quest for purity. I suspect your next purchase will be a 456? - JMG | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2661 Registered: 9-2001 |
well, who authorized the change in badges? Ferrari or some aftermarket tuner???? | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 235 Registered: 11-2002 |
What is the big deal about a car being totally original? I think it is far more important for it to be right like Paul said. If you are serious about keeping the car original why draw the line @ tires and mufflers, sounds like a double standard to me. I would bet there are very few totally original cars out there. Why worry about resale as well. I for one did not buy my car with resale in mind, I bought it to drive and have fun with. I think keeping it all original is fine if you are trying to win car shows but makes no difference to someone like me who just wants to drive it. I am sure I will not get what I paid for it if I decide to sell it, original or not! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1761 Registered: 9-2001 |
89TCab, obviously you do not know the history of Dino V8 road cars. The 308 was originally badged as a Dino and from what I read it was Fiat's intentions to badge all V8s as Dinos and V12s as Ferrari. Is was only after FNA could not sell the V8 cars in the USA badged as Dinos did Fiat allow the rebadging of them as Ferraris. In fact, I personally know of the body man who at the direction of FAF changed the Dino badges to Ferrari badges on numerous 308GT4s as they were delivered to the FAF showroom. If FNA could have sold the cars as Dinos, there would be no V8 cars badged as Ferraris today. | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 365 Registered: 9-2001 |
Geez Frank, you have been on this kick for so long and it is asinine IMHO. Only an unelightened fool, snob or lawyer could make that arguement, and yet being any of the abov3 would still not make it correct. A Ferrari is any car that is labeled as such by the factory - end of story. - JMG | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1759 Registered: 9-2001 |
89TCab, You cannot be a purist and refer to the V8 cars as anything but a Dino. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1758 Registered: 9-2001 |
89TCab, You cannot be a purist and refer to the V8 cars as anything but a Dino. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 212 Registered: 8-2002 |
IMO upgrades to keep the car in better shape and better performance goes highly in my book. BTW - Enzo did alot of tinkering on his race cars (ie. lots of one off configs) | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 214 Registered: 7-2002 |
Does this mean my twin turbo 348 is without desire? :0 | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 364 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ahhh Frank, is it possible to be a purist yet label all 8s as Dinos? I didn't think so either... | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
New member Username: 348paul Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2002 |
I believe there is a purist in all of us � it just comes out more in certain individuals. Don�t get me wrong - I have the highest respect for someone who has the persistence and the dedication to keep their car to absolute original specification. At the same time I have equally the highest respect for the people who go ahead and do these simple yet effective replacements for their cars. At the end of the day is �you� that has to live with it � so do it how you want to do it! � There will always be people who might not approve and others who wished that they had done it sooner! One scenario that I would love to ask a �true� purest is that if it was known that a certain genuine Ferrari Part had a tendency to fail prematurely � And a non OEM part was known to outlast the Ferrari part, would they still insist on installing the Ferrari part! I guess if its not seen we will never know!! Paul | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1751 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jeff, I'm sure you're correct that some people out there would not mind aftermarket parts on a Ferrari/Dino they are considering. Most potential buyers do care though. I sure wouldn't advertise it in the FCA Newsletter or FML as most subscribers to those publications want orginal cars. I know I would rather have an original car in average condition than a aftermarket infested car in great otherwise condition . From my 13 years of Ferrari ownership, I suspect I am the norm as far as Ferrari ethusiast go. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2002 |
Frank: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. My 348 is a well-used example, it was pretty much "rode hard and put away wet" prior to my ownership, but it fit into a price range I could afford and needed work I could do myself. I don't believe the engine lid insulation job that I did here would have any effect at all on the value of this particular 348, much less "destroy the resale value". I will agree with you that it is preferable to keep an original Ferrari in original condition as much as possible. Would I have bought this particular car if it was butchered this way? You betcha. Do I think Ferrari should have used a better/costlier product for this application? You betcha. Does it bother me that it isn't original? Not at all. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1747 Registered: 9-2001 |
Mayby I'm too conservative, but I have a real problem with all these modifications to these beautiful Ferraris and Dinos using non-OEM parts. Tire and mufflers are one thing, but changing the appearance of the car is another. Even if you do not plan of entering it in concours, you are still destroying the resale value of your car. Would you have bought your car if it had already been butchered with the aftermarket parts you have installed ? When I am in the market for another Ferarri originality is a big considerartion to me. Leave it stock, you will end up glad you did. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2465 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jeff B., I'm sure the insulation will survive Texas heat. Considering the highly reflective surface of the foil, it'll reflect the most intense heat its thrown at and stay up there. I too am of the anti-concours crowd. If it works, screw originality and KEEP IT. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 493 Registered: 5-2001 |
I saw Jeff's car up close on Saturday and the insulation repair he did is first class! Very professionally done. Dave | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 225 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here is another easy solution. All I did was use sheet aluminum painted black put over the old insulation. It will easily pop rivet to the supports. Requires removal of the lid itself but not really all that difficult to do with sheet metal sheers, a hand drill, and a pop rivet gun.  | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks for the nice comments about my little project. I had an opportunity to look at another 348 today, a 1992 ts, and its original foam insulation looked just fine. Go figure. DISCLAIMER: I can't guarantee that this job will last forever, and owners should use caution with any product they place into a warm/hot environment. That said, in this case I used simple everyday home insulation products from Home Depot/Lowes. I don't know what the actual heat ratings are for these products. I experimented by subjecting them to maximum heat output from my Wagner paint stripper gun (rated up to 1000 degrees). The foil backed foam that I used for the bases will melt easily at that temperature unless it is covered with the reflective insulating material. I gave this rolled material full blast with the gun for several minutes, and it had almost no effect on it. At the same temperatures, the factory foam blackens and melts. You won't reach anywhere near that temperature in the area this is located. I drove the car several hours over the last two days, and I each time I checked the new material, it was barely warm to the touch. Granted, I'm in Washington state, and it's about 38 degrees outside. I can't say how these products would perform in July in Texas. But I'm pretty confident they will perform as well or better than the factory foam, and they look much nicer. Now - on a twin turbo 348, I might be a bit more cautious, and use a material more like the covers above the mufflers. Same holds for the material on the inside of the rear bumper. I would consult McMaster-Carr or someone like that for advice on a truly high-temperature application. If it gets hot enough to damage the pieces I've installed, it will also blister the paint off everything in the vicinity. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 532 Registered: 11-2001 |
Jeff Sweet job man. I'm am the owner of a 348 with NO insulation. The way you went is the way I will go, when I get the itch to do it. As far as concours goes, well they can bite the big one. My mechanic restored a 330 and it places 98 and 99 all the time. What they get dinged for is, get this, too much armoral on the dash or the tires, and there is barly any on in the first place. They are way to anal retentive at those things. Do what you want to your car. If anything it will be better than the crap job, and stuff put on at the factory. Speeking of insulation material, what is the stuff that they used on the inside of the rear bumper, to protect it from the heat the muffler produces. My bumper is currently getting fixxed and we took off the material that was glued onto the bumper. I found some insulation material that can with stand 1000 deg F. But is that enough or is there something better? | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 212 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jeff, The car looks great. Could you be a little more specific on where you bought the insulation, brand name, etc. Also, the reflective surface, and tape, adhesion method, same info? I will need to treat the bottom of mine for the engine compartment in my 348 TT. Thanks, Jeff | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2002 |
Frank: There are hundreds of 348's out there that would demolish mine in a concours. Why bother to pretend it will ever be a concours competitor? If I wanted a concours entry, I would have purchased one of the many low milers for sale out there. To put this car into concours condition would literally cost more than I paid for it, and I'd be afraid to ever use it! This is a driver, not a show car. I wouldn't have put that cheap foam back onto the car if they were giving it away! I don't think I agree with the point about leeway for older cars, either. Would any concours judges care to make a comment about that one? From what I have seen, there is so much competition between really, really accurately restored cars that the judges will ding you points for ANY deviation from originality. If the other guy has the original part or took the time, effort, and expense to have it reproduced as original, you won't get leeway because of "lack of parts". | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1738 Registered: 9-2001 |
John, just the opposite. A concours judge will give more leeway toward an older car than a newer one because of the lack of parts for some 1950/60 era cars. Everything is still available for a 348 so any non-OEM appearnace part will cost you at a concours. | ||
| john beaucher (Spider348)
New member Username: Spider348 Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff, Nice job. Probably a more effective insulator as well. Regarding stock appearance. I would be concerned on a '59 TR but not a modern 308, 328, 348 etc. As to Porsche, have owned several 911's and 930's. Same problem after several years. The engine compartment insulator pad fails, pad drops and deteriorates. Quite a mess. Engine out repair/ replace. John '94 348 spider/ stock insulation. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1737 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am always against changing the stock appearance of a Ferrari road car even if it is for the better. I always use OEM parts for anything that is visable . After all, you may want to enter a councours one day. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 197 Registered: 8-2002 |
" I mean, come on, Ferrari, a $100,000 car with about 25 cents worth of the cheapest foam you could find? " LOL... Jeff... all Ferrari are POS. They have great motors and a cool suspension when they work. Think awesome bombshell mistress with 1/2 the complement or teeth and braided hair down there. Its a Ferrari! If you want a decent car get a Porsche. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jean-Louis: It's a very late 1990 348ts, just turned 45,000 miles. Most of its life was spent in California and Florida, the last three years here in Washington. The deterioration wasn't due to outside influence (oil leaks, overheating, etc.), it just started sagging and crumbled away. | ||
| Christopher McCormick (92_348ts)
Junior Member Username: 92_348ts Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2002 |
Very nice job, looks better than stock. Mine hasn't yet got to the point of corrosion, however it sags about 6" in the middle. Not what you would expect for a ten year old car that cost over $120k when new. | ||
| Jean-Louis (Jlm348)
Junior Member Username: Jlm348 Post Number: 212 Registered: 11-2002 |
Looks Good Jeff, Let us know how it turns out. The insulation on my car has not yet started to corrode, but I always like to be prepared. Can you please let me know what year your 348 is and about how many miles? | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2002 |
I finally took the time to do something about the horrible looking insulation on the underside of the 348's engine lid. I mean, come on, Ferrari, a $100,000 car with about 25 cents worth of the cheapest foam you could find? I removed the entire lid for easier access, scraped off all of the old foam, and made some templates. I bought a piece of 1/2" foil-backed rigid insulating foam ($1.54), cut out the six pieces, and glued them into place with latex silicone adhesive ($1.25). Then I took a roll of reflective insulation material ($9.95), cut matching pieces, and glued them onto the foam blocks, trimming them to fit nicely. Total investment: about $14.00, and I have most of the roll of insulation left over. It will take a few long test drives to make sure everything stays in place, but I'm pretty confident it will last a long time, and it looks 100% better!   |