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Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010

Post Number: 138
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 8:08 am:   

Lee
308's in common I suspect with many Ferrari's and most street cars are built with understeer in the chassis settings. My experience is that it gets noticeably worse when the 205/70s get heated up (more flexible) too at the track. Fatter/lower profile tires on 16 inch rims help a lot. I upgraded to 16 inch rims and stickier rubber for most usage, including at the track but kept the 14 inchers for show/resale.

Either way, you can influence the amount of understeer through the alignment settings, anti-roll bar sizing and so forth and there has a fair amount of discussion on this forum on how to do that - search the archives. Generally most people want some understeer or possibly a more neutral car in most condition - it is a lot easier (safer) for most of us to drive that way. Clearly, if you are talented you can exploit inherent oversteering tendencies to go faster, but personally I'll leave that to more proficient drivers.
HTH
Lee Pierce (Leepierce)
New member
Username: Leepierce

Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 7:15 pm:   

Terry:
Do the terms (and the physics) still apply before the car actually "cuts loose". In other words, I've noticed some cars seem to accelerate their turning as you turn, like the tires and suspension give and suddenly you're turning MORE than you intended. I've always thought this might be what's called "oversteer", culminating in the back end spinning around.

Similarly, some cars will tend to stay planted and actually steer LESS, want to straighten out, the more you push into a curve. I've always considered this understeer, which like you mentioned would culminate in no steering if pushed too hard; the car would actually just started pushing the turned wheels straight, like on that hilarious F50 video someone posted. Easy to see how that could happen with wet streets.

Please let me know if this seems correct. Thanks so much for the descriptions.

Oh, quick question: should I expect my 308 to oversteer? Should I be waiting for that back end to come around if pushed too hard?
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer

Post Number: 390
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 6:33 pm:   

Lee:

Understeer is when you go into a corner, turn the wheel and the car keeps going straight. The front wheels lose traction before the rear wheels and you lose steering ability.

Oversteer is where the back end wants to swap places with the front. The rear wheels lose traction and the car wants to spin.

In a nutshell: Understeer is when the front end of the car gets smashed into the outside wall of the corner you just totally blew. Oversteer is when the backside of the car gets smashed after you have left the road going backwards.

Most street cars are setup to understeer. This is because understeer is easier to correct for the novice: just slow down. Oversteer is what you get with many mid and rear engine cars at the very limit of the cars capability. Much of the magic associated with driving a 911 on the limit is the trailing throttle oversteer. When pushed really hard, a 911 is steered as much with the throttle pedal as the steering wheel.
Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member
Username: 308gtb

Post Number: 407
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 6:11 pm:   

Mike P,

I have a 1976 308 GTB with the optional 7.5" X 14" Campagnolo wheels. I have Michelin XWX 205/70VR14s mounted. For my driving style, they're fine. And the sidewalls have that 70s style bulge.

Barry

Lee Pierce (Leepierce)
New member
Username: Leepierce

Post Number: 21
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 6:03 pm:   

Barry:
You're right, also. Yet another reason I could and should have kept them. I've read this site for months and it just hasn't been long enough. Doh!
-Lee
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 2259
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 5:56 pm:   

At first I hated the 205/70's but after the high speed drive (125 for 20 miles)and mountain roads on Sunday....I really love them. I do not miss the 225/60's

DISCLAIMER: None of the speeds quoted in this thread were acheived on public roadways and DEFINITELY not while participating in any FCA or FOC sponsored events
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member
Username: Coachi

Post Number: 205
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 3:06 pm:   

I have P 4000 and find them much better than the Goodyear tires that were on the car when I bought it.
Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member
Username: 308gtb

Post Number: 401
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 12:15 pm:   

Lee,

Those original XWXs had to come off to make way for new rubber. Perhaps you could have found someone who wanted them for show purposes. But an important reason for keeping them would be to help document the mileage on your car.

Michelin XWXs are still available. Anyone interested can check Michelin's Vintage Tire Division at Michelin's portal website:

http://michelin.com/portail/index.jsp

Barry
Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member
Username: Atlantaman

Post Number: 95
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 11:50 pm:   

Mike, If you hunt around on E-bay or some place like T-Rutlands--there are several original unused Michelin's still around--I have one here that I will gladly sell--from my spare--still has the white waxy coating on it.
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 2001
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 6:38 pm:   

The HTR200 ate excellent in the rain. I have been driving them the past couple of days and they stick (for lack of a better work) really well
Lee Pierce (Leepierce)
New member
Username: Leepierce

Post Number: 16
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 1:13 pm:   

Mike et al.

I don't know understeer from oversteer; I've read about it for years and have driven hard and fast on the street for years, but don't really understand the terms. Is there a nice primer online someone could point me to so I can understand what it means in practice?

You're right, Mike; I should have kept those damned XWX's. You're right; I could have cleaned them up and probably sold them. As it is I guess they're headed for the tire graveyard about now.

Definitely call me when you're in town; I have a great friend in Oak Ridge who's a real enthusiast; we could all get together for some pizza and beers at Big Ed's or something!

As for noticing the car wanting to "give" too much around corners, probably I'm just too new to know. I feel the g's build around a turn and imagine the heavy rear end's momentum carrying me into a nice 360 and probably I let off too soon. The mechanic said the springs and shocks looked great so I hope nothing is wrong with the suspension.

I REALLY need to get it on a track to get to know its limits more. I thought about the Talledega thing in March but it's just too soon for me. Maybe I can find something closer and a little less formal. Also, need to get the "brake failure" light figured out. Probably a short from what I've read on this site, but I'll get the system bled soon to be sure.
Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member
Username: Tifosi1

Post Number: 549
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 8:20 pm:   

Mine is wearing the P4000. I am very satisfied. I run them on the track too.
Mike Fisher (Mikef)
Junior Member
Username: Mikef

Post Number: 163
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:51 pm:   

Interesting story: When I had the old XWX's on my car, I was driving one day and felt like I had a flat tire. I got out and looked, but they all looked like they had proper pressure. When I got home, I checked the pressure, and one tire had 10# air pressure. These things were so stiff the sidewall didn't deflect enough to even indicate such a low pressure!!
Unless you care about concours or track, in my opinion an H rated tire should be more than OK. Pirelli makes a P4000 205/70/14 which I have in My Maserati and am very happy with, especially in the rain.
Remember, the speed rating of tires is for "sustained speed", not just an occasional burst up to that speed.
Mike Fisher (Mikef)
Junior Member
Username: Mikef

Post Number: 162
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:28 pm:   

I was able to find five Yokohamas 205/70VR/14 new old stock from Jesus Flores, at 4 Day Tire Store, somewhere in California. I can't find any of the old information, but you might try a search to see what you can come up with. They were expensive, but not as much as the old XWX's and in my opinion a much better performing tire.
Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member
Username: Dom

Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:14 am:   

I just got the Sumito's 205/70 HR from Tirerack. Cost was $41 each. I only had the car a week before putting these on, and 2 days with the new tires so I can't really tell the difference yet.

Pricewise is great. I am a little worried about H-rated, though, because I would like to do track events. I think 130 will still be hard to reach (due to my ability), but I guess I'll be keeping a close eye on the speeedometer.

Maybe after these wear out, I will try to upgrade to 16" wheels.

Dom
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308

Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:57 am:   

Lee,

You and I are a lot alike, I think. My 78 308 GTS is "new" to me since August of 2002--I've spent what you've spent getting it in tip-top shape. This just comes with the territory--ironing out all the glitches on a car, that, while fundamentally a Ferrari, is also fundamentally 25 years old ;).

Congrats on your purchase, though! That's really great. You need to update your profile so we can all gawk, too! Crazy that it had the original Michelin's on it--you should save those, put themk in a museum. Hell, somebody who's REALLY an originality freak would probably buy them--I'm being totally serious!

Interesting your notes on the handling. These cars are basically understeering cars, with overseer coming on like "power oversteer" (gunning it, getting high torque and acceleration around a tight turn), and then throttle-modulated oversteer (understeering with strong throttle, then letting up on the gas)--the weight transfer to the front will lighten the rear wheels, oversteering (nice and easy to control!) and tighten up the line quite nicely. This is considered an handling asset of the car. "Natural" oversteer at the limit is not the personality of the car. Your first autocross event will convince you of all of this.

So I'm worried that you feel the back end getting loose to soon--that something most 308 owners would say is NOT a problem! Definitely check your tire pressures. The "stickiness" / composition of the tire obviously has lots to do with it, as well.

As for me responding to my own questions, I try to give back as much to Fchat as I take. I don't mind doing a little research and compilation and putting it in one nice, easy place that will be found quickly through a search. Though it's my problem now, it will be many people's problems in the future, and hopefully my work will pay off for future Fchatters. I'm convinced I know a few things that my mechanic doesn't, all from sifting through the 1400 threads that come up doing a search for "308" in the subject line!

Oh yeah, and I wouldn't call it long winded, either--there's some semblance of useful information in each sentence, right? :-)

On a different note, I was born and grew up in Oak Ridge, TN. I'll actually be there (in Knoxville) weekend of July 18th for my stepbrother's marriage (Jason Cruize?). Would be great to catch up then.

And... rumor has it that I am now no longer in the market for 14" tires. This after doing all that research! 16" tire recommendations, anybody? (sigh) I guess I'll go search the archives... :-)

In conclusion, if I were to get a set of 14" rubber today, I'd go with the Falken ZIEX-60s, 225/60-14 HR.


Mike
Lee Pierce (Leepierce)
New member
Username: Leepierce

Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:32 pm:   

Mike:
I'm a newbie to this whole beloved Ferrari thing, but I'm understanding all the more the passion we all feel for these cars.

Anyway, I just got a '78 308 a few weeks ago after a 2-month stay in the shop for some major service. What other car would you buy used, spend $6000 to get it running, and be happy as a clam to own?

Anyway again, this car had the ORIGINAL tires on it, the Michelin XWX's. They were hard as rocks, believe me; the tire dude had a really hard time getting them off. I just wanted this car on the road so I went with the $40 Sumitomos from Tirerack.

I've only drive the car a couple hundred miles over the last few weeks (lousy weather), but my first impressions are that they give quite a bit around corners. The back end wants to let loose a little earlier than I think it should. But then, could that be the car's personality? I haven't been in this long enough to know. All in all, a decent riding and feeling tire, but to appreciate your car, I might try some 225's. The tire guy (who is the "official" tire guy for the BMW racing club in East Tennessee) said 225's should work fine for the size of the wheel. That's probably what I'll do next, since I'm not eager to spend 2-3 grand on 16" rims yet, either. Maybe after the repairs get paid for...

Good luck.
BTW, I think it's hilarious you've responded more in your own post than anyone else. That's the way I am, thinking at the keyboard; easy to get long-winded that way.

Think I'll wander off to the garage now to gawk a little...
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 2463
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 3:03 pm:   

Mike, don't be too concerned about the "H" rating. This is good for 130MPH. How many times do you drive +130MPH?....

Peter R.
(Wearing 205/70HR-14 Pirelli P4000's)
david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda

Post Number: 490
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 2:25 pm:   

Mike,
My wheels were "take offs" from a 84 QV and where completely refinished before mounting the new Bridgestones. I paid $3k for the wheels plus tires and balancing. I recently sold them with the tire (about 8k miles) for $2600. My loss...I have a 328 now.
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 1884
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 1:54 pm:   

Mike,

I just got some Sumitomo's in the 205/70-14. HTR-200's I like them but you need to run 43 psi in the rear and 41 in the front our the sidewalls flex. When these wear out I am going to get them in the 225/60-14 size. The car is lower and the jack does not fit BUT, if you lift on the rear you can get the jack under the car.
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308

Post Number: 79
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 1:47 pm:   

Well, it seems that--and it's still early to come to this conclusion--if you want OEM spec 205/70R-14 (V-rated), you have to go to Coker. (Unless you can find Yokohama A321s, now discontinued for several years.) This I've read is very expensive.

Barring that option, and assuming we're looking for tires for 6.5" or 7.5" by 14" standard rims, so far we've got:

Falken: 225/60-14 (H) ("ZIEX-60")
Firestone: 235/60-14 (H)
Dunlop: 245/60-14 (?)
BF Goodrich: 245/60-14 (?)
Mastercraft: 215/60-14 (H)
Sumitomo: 225/60-14 (H), ("HTR 4")

I read about the Mastercrafts here:http://www.ferrarilist.com/?query=recent&action=display&mid=24081

This guy had them on his 308GT4, and was very happy with their performance.

As for the Sumitomos, Matt Lemus (a Fchatter) ran them, 225/60-14s. They're discussed here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/189889.html

Apparently, there can be some issue with 225/60s having a tendancy to scrape more over speedbumps, etc.; one guy had a problem getting his factory jack under the car.

I also found a guy selling discountinued new Yokohamas, 225/60 14 (H), model A008RS. Apparently a guy named Lashdeep (from the FerrariList) ran these for a while.

Interesting that Dr. Ibrahim found Pirellis, I did't have much luck finding anything. I also just pulled a set of 4 Pirellis off my SAAB early that were just horrible, out of round, vibrating, etc. My confidence in the brand is out the window right now. Replaced with "store brand" Yokohamas.

I'll contact Dr. Ibrahim and ask him to post the specs of his 14" Pirellis. Actually, I can't--don't have his email... We'll hope he'll follow this thread.

My main concern is having a tire, say, a notch better than just commuting tires--tires that will do well in the mountains, and on concrete-barrier, divided highways at 3:00am for 120mph sprints for when I let my friend drive.

By the way, I've got 7.5" x 14" Campagnolo rims all around--these are the wide optional factory wheels.

Anybody else out there with a 308GTS/GTB and 14" rims? What tires are you running? What are you going to get next?

Steve (Steve)
Member
Username: Steve

Post Number: 299
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 8:07 am:   

Mike if you want the OEM Michilen's (sp) you can go to Coker tire who has the mold and will give you the orig. v-rated tires. I have Firestone 235-60-14's , H rated and do not have any problems. When they wear out I will go to a 245-60-14 in either dunlop or goodrich.I have not checked falken but they make a good tire. I find that any of these tires give the desired performance if you are a casual driver (2500 miles/yr)and in street mode. Iusually don't break 100mph to much so these are just fine for 70mph rides back and forth to work in the summer months.
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member
Username: Coachi

Post Number: 196
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 7:23 am:   

Better still, email me. I have a very hard time finding posts a few days later...because this site, as good as it is, is hard to search for the multitutde of posts.
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member
Username: Coachi

Post Number: 195
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 7:21 am:   

I bought Pirelli tires for my car from the tire rack a few months ago. Standard size wheels... had them installed and they work fine...if you need more information, let me know and i will dig out the details. I have a 79 308 GTS.
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308

Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:46 pm:   

Dave,

I'm jealous of your 16" rims. They're definitely a big upgrade. 16" OEM rims--that means NOT superformance aftermarket rims and the like--correct? Your rims were probably pretty expensive, then... Are your 16" OEM rims the "keep searching ebay, ask around, find a used set of QV rims for sale" rims, or are there actually new OEM 16" rims still being produced?

david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda

Post Number: 489
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:38 pm:   

Mike,
I had those Michelins on my car and they were fine for most driving conditions, including rain. When pushed hard they did squeel a bit more than I liked though. I eventually broke down and bought a set of factory OEM 16" QV wheels and some Bridgestone RE730's 225-50 front, 245-45 rear. WOW, what a difference. A highly recommended performance and cosmetic upgrade.

Dave
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308

Post Number: 71
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:29 pm:   

A little more digging around on the FerrariList archives, I found one guy who, since the Yoko A321s were discounting, took a chance on some "Falkens." He was raving pretty heavily about them... John Asselta was his name (reputable guy).

Here's the tire info:
http://www.falkentire.com/html/products/ziex/ziex60/ziex60.htm
Falken ZIEX ZE-60, 225/60R14 94H
Diameter=24.7", approved for rim widths from 6" to 8".

This tire will work with all standard and optional factory 14" 308 GTB/GTS rims. I believe the front tires will be OK as far as no "rubbing"; 308 GT4 owners report rubbing with 225/60s in the front when turning.

Also, according to a tire size / difference calculator located at:
http://www.c5-corvette.com/tirecalc.htm

225/60s will introduce a speedometer error of +2.7%, making the speedo "overread" slightly. This isn't all necessarily that bad, since some have said that 308 speedos "underread" slightly, that is, indicate a speed slightly slower than you're actually travelling. (Not sure about this, though...) In any case, we're talking about a difference of 2mph at 70mph.

Has anyone had experience with the Falkens (or known of somebody who has)?

Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308

Post Number: 69
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 10:45 pm:   

It's getting close to time to put some new shoes on my 78 308 GTS.

These are standard 14", non-metric rims. That is, not the 390mm ones that are "impossible" to find tires for. OEM spec was for Michelin 205/70R-14" VR-rated tires. My rims are factory standard 6.5" widths all around (I do not have the optional wider rims in the rear).

The trouble is, I really, really, can't find suitable tires for the car that match this spec. I've had some luck finding HR rated tires, but they look pretty pathetic.

In the past, my 308 and other 308 "classics" that I've seen have run Yokohama A321s, which are correct OEM spec 205/70R-14 V-rated tires. These are now discontinued. Haven't had any luck finding new old stock.

I did a thorough archive search, and found some people running 225/60 14s, but HR. Actually, I haven't had much luck finding these, either. Other than that, I couldn't find anything else.

I'm willing to settle for HR if I have to, but I was really hoping for a higher-performing tire.

I've found a Michelin "Energy MXV4 XSE" HR rated tire 205/70R-14, here, that seems *OK*:
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/dtd/findTireDetail.do?step=details&source=size&productType=TIRE&index=8&productCodeIndex=35286

Other than that, I'm out of ideas. I'm waiting a while to put on 16" rims--they seem to be the rave, yet I'm worried about the compaint I've read about various 16" aftermarket rims, and am not ready to invest in original QV rims. (Subject for another thread.)

What in the world are you guys running for 14" tires?

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