| Author | Message | ||
| joe under (Undertaker)
New member Username: Undertaker Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2003 |
Good to see you had a good outcome Frank. Congrats ! | ||
| Bill White (Nc_newbie)
Junior Member Username: Nc_newbie Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank, Great looking Boxer... congrats on the service..and fun thread to read... Saw your post on your beach house. I'll do the same and offer 10% off my beach house to any FC members. Emerald Isle NC.... HTTP://home.ec.rr.com/southernexposure Bill | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2065 Registered: 9-2001 |
My Boxer service is complete and the car is awaiting to be carried to the body shop for some touch-up work and to repair the damage done by the tow strap incident. The service price was exactly as originally quoted except for the addition of the harmonic balancer and oil pressure sending unit that needed replacement. I'm leaving to go on holiday at my beach house on Thursday and will pick her up upon my return. By the way, don't forget the 10% discount all FC members get when they rent my beach house. Go to www.vrbo.com/18233 | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2056 Registered: 9-2001 |
I do not wish to belittle JRV and have already said that I suspect that he is a good mechanic. But to infer that mistakes and part failures never happen in car repairs, from Toyotas to Ferraris, is crazy. Even parts fail and mechanics make mistakes on multimillion dollar F1 cars. Remember the tire coming off Schumis car in a race a few years ago ? Would JRV consider those pit mechanics incompetent. While I would have rathered that the hose clamp not have failed ,things happen and since FOA owned up to it and agreed to repair it , I'm happy. I heard a story about another Ferrrai that was damaged by an independant mechanic who was trying to repair it without telling the customer when the customer walked in unannounced to see how his car was coming. Now that would have made me mad. My car was going straight to the body shop for other touch-ups/repairs from FOA regardless so I wasn't expecting to take possesseion of the car yet anyway. And,for the JRV imposter, I am very happy with the outcome of my claim against FONE, but agreed to keep the terms confidential. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 208 Registered: 8-2002 |
I also don't see why some of you guys need to belittle JRV, some of his responses may seem harsh but he tells it like it is, I'd much rather deal with someone like that than a BS side stepping wrench that will sock it to $$ you when he thinks he can, which has been my experience with performance car techs which many are complete fraud rips offs that charge you for things they never replaced or did Practically all of us here with the exception of a handfull are shade tree mechanics with fair to good mechanical basics but when it comes to Ferrari we are out of our league, JRV takes the time to give advice here and gives info thats very valuable $$ wise, 99% of exotic techs would rather keep a secret to keep you coming back for more $$ in their pocket,its hard enough for them to give you real info even when you are paying for it in their shop | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just curious as to where I can buy my Anabolic Steroids too.. Is it true they make you more agressive? | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 3341 Registered: 8-2002 |
Frank, Mechanic's are like Lawyers, you get what you pay for. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1199 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey imposter ....pretty gutless to hide behind an imposter handle....and get over whatever petty resentments you have by dragging up old history on Frank and trying to pose as me....lastly...this thread is dead...hopefully a lesson or two of value can be gleened from this unfortunate series of events...if not then the entire point of this discussion has been missed by any that can't learn something ! The lesson is simple for those that missed it...real mechanics work very hard on complicated difficult machines..they deserve to be paid fairly if they hold themselves and their work to the highest standards, LowBall bids and Slam Bam Time frames therefore are suspect! Doug, the general "Dealer" quote of $8500 is Parts & Labor and includes the cleaning/painting of all applicable items & whatever misc., the labor is generally considered to be approx. 55 hrs...start to finish. My general quote that includes everthing a Dealer would do with a serious emphasis on quality and attention to detail to insure my clients recieve the finest work and value money can buy is $6500. Now...as far as I'm concerned I'm done with this... | ||
| jrv (Jrvisking)
New member Username: Jrvisking Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hey Frank, You're a pretty swell guy. Question sport : are you gonna sue FOA for jackin' up your ride like you tried to sue Ferrari of Long Island was it ? | ||
| Doug meredith (Dougm)
Junior Member Username: Dougm Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2001 |
Sorry Previos post should say labor + parts. | ||
| Doug meredith (Dougm)
Junior Member Username: Dougm Post Number: 242 Registered: 2-2001 |
JRV Is the $8500 normal charge for a major service + labor or labor only? Frank actually said his is $5000 for both. Getting a little closer to what should be charged. Maybe FOA is trying to drum up some service? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1196 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank said on 2-17-03: >>I have been quoted a flat rate of $3k in labor plus approximately $2k in parts for a major service for my Boxer from FOA. How does that compare to the prices you guys are paying ? And it only takes 10 days total!<< JRV said on 2-17-03: >>Dealers normaly charge $8500 for a major on a BB512. Sounds like a heck of a good deal..60% off standard charge.<< Frank said on 2-17-03: $8500.00 for such a service is a crime. With the down economy I suspect Ferrari dealers are feeling the pinch in their service, parts and sales departments. This may be the time to use a dealer for work where you may otherwise use a privateer. << JRV says on 3-26-03: Not really a crime if they don't trash out your Ferrari by giving it the Tow Rope Special Tune!!! >> | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2055 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ben, no ones mad at JRV, at least not me. I believe a lot of people are just surprised that someone would claim that: 1) when a new part fails that it is the mechanic who installed that parts fault; 2) that JRV is immune from such an occurrence happening to him; 3) by paying more for labor somehow prevents a part from failing; 4) that a mechanic would call into question another mechanic's skill based on a failed hose clamp; and 5) that once JRV claimed his perfection that he refused to either admit or deny that he had EVER had a problem of any sort with a car he had serviced or repaired . | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2054 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, what say you now ? | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2001 |
I read all the posts, I must of missed something why is everyone mad at JRV. Just curious I dont feel like trying to read 101 posts again | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2053 Registered: 9-2001 |
After reading his posts I would not let JRV work on my ClubCar golf cart ! | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2002 |
Tom Bakowsky wrote : "Just always remember that JRV is the only person in the world that is qualified to work on Ferrari's. And his shop is the only one that is equipped to do so." good one Tom ! LMAO !! | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 286 Registered: 9-2002 |
Guys haven't you all figured this out yet? JRV is God...He can never make a mistake and he never has..Heck he knows way more then the dealer and Ferrari for that matter. I believe that he builds all of Ferrari's cars right in his shop. The big factory in Italy is just a front. They really process potatos there. Just always remeber that JRV is the only person in the world that is qualitied to work on Ferrari's. And his shop is the only one that is equipped to do so. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 166 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wow took me 1/2 an hour to read this cat fight. Keep it up, its better then the news on Iraq  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2047 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, your lack of self confidence continues to amase me. I guess you have committed many errors which were not failed new parts. Be careful, maybe after 30 more years you will get it right. A major service by a FNA authorized dealer of over 30 years is hardly an experiment. I suspect they have serviced more Boxers than you have ever seen. And, I know they have more assets to stand behind their work than you could possibly have. As far as the tow, the car was less than 1/4 mile from the shop from where it was towed. If it would have been me I would have used a tow strap too rather than call a wrecker. You may be a fine mechanic JRV, but you are still not perfect. And to have a dealer own up to their error and stand behind it is all a customer can ask. I know I'm happy. From you're post you are apparantly not. By the way, their was no "bleeding" involved, it was coolant that was leaking. From my knowledge car engines have no blood. You should study up on that. Maybe that's why your services cost so much if you're having to buy blood from the Red Cross to put in the engines, coolant works much better. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1186 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>JRV, I do not consider the outcome as sad. In fact, it is even better than if the hoseclamp had not broke . << Sure it's better Frank, we knew going into this discussion that a bent bleeding Ferrari was a good thing. >>As a result of the paint damage caused by the tow strap I am now getting a whole panel repainted that had pre-existing imperfections that needed repair anyway at the body shop of my choice for free. I get a one year parts/labor warranty as well which should be plenty long to uncover any other possible problems.<< I'm not sure how comfortable most would feel driving a failed experiment for a year hoping nothing else takes a dump, you might want to add some extra coverage by buying a Rabbits Foot Key Chain. Did they at least buy a 'new' Tow Strap to drag you back next time? Are there any photos of the Tow? Ma & Pa Kettle Tows Beverly Hillbillies to Town? >>And, the fact that you refuse to answer the question I posed indicates to me that you must have had more returns that you can recall. Maybe someone from Valladingham,J.R. Co. could advise. I could research the issue and post the results if you like.<< ..threats now....frank...you research whatever the hell you want. This thread is not about me, never was. It's about your arrogance and outright beligerence and lack of respect for what a real service and real mechanics are all about. You are a jerk and now you're trying to shift the focus away from the subject at hand you/your service fiasco....I'm not interested in playing your game. BTW I give a 2 yr warranty on all my work...and after 30+ yrs working on these cars and 20 yrs in business for myself I'm not turning out rolling experiments so I could even extend the period and not even bat an eye! | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just being Devils Advocate not trying to take sides but, In all my years of working on heavy equipment, trucks, and cars I have never had a clamp break after it was on a water hose, I have had them break while tightening them though, this is not really a big deal but I don't think FOA is telling the real story, I'd say it wasn't tightened enough, not a concern other than if they did run your temp in the red after it failed which with a failed hose would only take a few seconds | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
New member Username: Agracer Post Number: 47 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank, I was being a smartass. I bad mouthed laywers in a post not to long ago and you took some offense to it. I indirectly asked you a question and you never responded. It was more of a rhetorical question and I didn't expect you to respond. Honestly, it was the venom in your initial response that twisted me out of sorts. But then, I got over it in about 5-minutes. ;) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2046 Registered: 9-2001 |
I agree Tom and in my case it was a failed part as well. FOA called me on the phone and told me of the problem before I had any idea. They could have just made the repairs and never told me and I would have never known. I respect their honesty and feel even better about my choice to use them as a result. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 283 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm a mechanic as well had have serviced a fair amount of Ferrari's. I can say that I have never had one come back on a hook, but I have had one or two return for failed parts. But I think the worst one was on a M-benz 300e twin cam engine. I missed on the variable cam timing and smashed all the intake valves. But that was when I was still learning about all that stuff. Basicly everybody makes mistakes (espeacialy in this trade with over bareing service advisors) and it takes a person who is honest to admit they screwed up, and is willing to repair the damage with a smile on their face. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2043 Registered: 9-2001 |
Sean, its queer when a mechanic bad mouths another mechanic for something that happens such as a failed new hose clamp. And, while they infer their work is of a higher quality, they refuse to answer a simple question as to whether they had EVER had a car returned to them with a problem after they had done a repair or service. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
New member Username: Agracer Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2003 |
People ignore questions they don't want to answer all the time on this board. Right Frank? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2041 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, I do not consider the outcome as sad. In fact, it is even better than if the hoseclamp had not broke . As a result of the paint damage caused by the tow strap I am now getting a whole panel repainted that had pre-existing imperfections that needed repair anyway at the body shop of my choice for free. I get a one year parts/labor warranty as well which should be plenty long to uncover any other possible problems. Before my car went to FOA I needed the same panel repainted at my cost and had no one year warranty. Needless to say I am now thrilled and happy as a pig in slop. And, the fact that you refuse to answer the question I posed indicates to me that you must have had more returns that you can recall. Maybe someone from Valladingham,J.R. Co. could advise. I could research the issue and post the results if you like. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1185 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hi Frank, no ...cat doesn't have my tongue....I simply have no desire to change the subject from the sad outcome of your service. have a nice day. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2040 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, what ever are you talking about ? A brand new hose clamp breaking can hardly be traced to a poor job unless it was overtightened I suppose. The mechanic is very experienced and in fact worked on the FNA Challenge team last year. IMHO my service is in fact FIRST RATE and better than any work I have seen from a non-dealer shop. I did note that you failed to respond as to whether or not you had EVER had a car come back with a problem of some sort that you had worked on ? Cat got your tongue ? That being said, I would still choose to have the service done at FOA at whatever price over a non-dealer shop including yours. By the way, I looked back at all the posts and didn't see a single "prediction" from you ? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1183 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, this thread from beggining to end is fully self-explanatory. Predictions were made based on my many years of experience, they came true. Real Proffesionals quote "realistic" time frames and numbers from the outset..it's called "honesty". The beauty of experience and honesty is the car can be serviced and repaired using the "highest quality" standards thus there is no need for body shops and road tests that only last a few blocks before the unraveling begins. Experienced professionals spend the extra time and money ensuring that the operation has a beautiful, succesful, happy conclusion instead of breakdowns and trips to body shops. The overall cost and time you will have in this disaster when it's finally finished is more than I originally guesstimated what FIRST RATE Boxer Service costs and takes, less time than your fiasco, to which you alluded I was full of it and you knew better, well, looks like I was right, yet you try to excuse this poor outcome away. Was the engine overheated before the burst/clamp/leak was noticed? Let's hope for your sake it was shutdown before the temp was in the Red Zone. The guys who do the best work imo are the ones that know in advance the difficulty of performing perfect flawless work, "and plan for it in advance", those that try to minumalmize the task at hand end up with the results your situation so sadly shows. Lowprice and unrealistic time frames generally have the sad outcomes your situation exemplifies. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2039 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, so you have NEVER had a problem come up with a car after you have worked on it ? An oil leak, failed new part, lose nut, strange noise, nothing ? If not, may I bow to perfection ! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1182 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hi Frank, You're a real cool guy. Most Ferrari customers expect a much higher degree of care, concern and proffesionalism for their Ferrari when it's in for service. Seems you might be getting the Dino treatment but you're taking it in stride good for you. Have a nice day, I'm sure eventually all the damage and problems will be worked through. And look at the bright side...after this practice run, the next guy might have better luck. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2038 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jeff, it turned out to be the hose clamp that broke, not the hose. JRV, you're full of yourself aren't you? The car was only a few blocks from the dealer and I have no objection to them using a tow strap rather than a tow truck. And I would hold up any work done by FOA against any other shop, including yours. The paint work will be done by the same guy I have used for 10 years for all of my cars and the same one FOA f/k/a FAF has used for 25 years or so. And, $3k is not only enough for the labor for a Boxer major service, it is more than enough. Just because you are overcharging your customers doesn't make it reasonable. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3082 Registered: 9-2001 |
Frank, thats why I said suspected - I was not there but he did try to blame me since I was the one paying for the PPI. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 245 Registered: 7-2001 |
Sorry to hear it Frank. I hope they do a good job rechecking the work and being upfront in person about the whole situation when you finally pick it up. There really is no excuse for this to have happend anyway. Attention to detail is a must. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1181 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, if they were pinching pennies by not using a Tow Truck, make sure they don't chince on the paint/repair job. Guess they will be a little over schedule now rechecking all the work to make sure nothing else bursts or comes unglued and with the little side trip to the body shop. That's why it's better to quote realistic times from the git go and take the time to do it right...once, the first time. Well, so much for low ball estimates for Major Services. | ||
| joe under (Undertaker)
New member Username: Undertaker Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2003 |
 | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 200 Registered: 8-2002 |
How does a new hose burst? I'd say they forgot to tighten it fully Wonder what else they forgot? They towed the car with a tow strap and it broke ?Musta jerked the car pretty hard a time or two The service manager may be a first rate guy but what about the tech? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2037 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom, I find that hard to believe about FOA. Not only did they own up to the tow strap damaging my front bumper over the telephone before I even saw it, I know of another occasion where a salesman dropped something on the hood of an old 308 and caused a little chip and they called that owner and told him and paid to have the entire hood repainted. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3080 Registered: 9-2001 |
interesting - the PO of my car suspected the car was damaged in FOA's PPI care but they would not own up to it. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1180 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>when FOA test drove my car today one of the new water hoses they installed as part of the service burst. To top that off, when they towed the car back to the shop the towing strap snapped and knocked some paint off the front bumper.<< OUCH... hope nothing serious. Someone should mention to them just as a suggestion...that Tow Trucks can usually do a good job without any damage. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2034 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well as luck would have when FOA test drove my car today one of the new water hoses they installed as part of the service burst. To top that off, when they towed the car back to the shop the towing strap snapped and knocked some paint off the front bumper. The good news is that they owned up to it before I even knew and are paying for any needed repairs. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 243 Registered: 7-2001 |
Nice to hear Frank. Glad the overall cost seems to be inline with what FOA was telling you. Post some pics after the required touchups are complete. Id like to see the motor and any of the exhaust since its been coated as well. Im sure you will be happy to have it back for spring/summer drives | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2030 Registered: 9-2001 |
The engine is in my car and running. Final tuning is being done. They did have to replace the oil sending unit at an additional cost of $60.00. The labor remains at a flat $3k so I'm happy. It will be detailed out tomorrow and ready to pick up on Wednesday. But, I will only deliver it to my paint man to do a few little needed touch-ups. Then she will come home to daddy. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1974 Registered: 9-2001 |
Drew, you DO NOT have to remove the engine to remove the headers on a Boxer. My refinished calipers and cermanic coated mufflers were just delivered to FOA. She should be ready later this week. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 118 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks Frank, Drew | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1964 Registered: 9-2001 |
Drew, you have to take the headers/exhaust off to get the engine out. I'm sure there is a cermanic/powder coating company near you. If not, try Miller Coating at 770.931.1505. He did a great job on mine for $450.00 for everything. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2002 |
Frank, I must admit you're making me a bit jealous and now have me thinking about coating my exhaust system. Can anyone on the board tell me if the headers can be removed from a Boxer without removing the engine? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1961 Registered: 9-2001 |
Drew, I had my headers and mufflers coated with a "Jet Hot" type cermanic coating. The headers were coated inside and out with the mufflers only coated on the outside. The color is aluminum which looks just like the stock color. The cermanic coating helps with heat and prevents corosion. Plus it looks great. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2002 |
Frank, What did they coat on the mufflers and what color? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1959 Registered: 9-2001 |
I got the mufflers back from the cermanic coaters today. Man does that cermanic coating look good on exhaust parts. The calipers are supposed to be ready tomorrow. So I should be driving her late next week. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1951 Registered: 9-2001 |
I dropped off most of the refinished engine parts to FOA yesterday. The only hold up now is getting the calipers refinished and getting the mufflers back from the cermanic coating place. I hope to have that finished and delivered this week. Then, FOA can finish up the service so I can get her back on the road. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 375 Registered: 4-2002 |
As each cylinder burns its charge a power pulse is transfered to the crankshaft through the connection rod. There are certain frequencies that the crankshaft will resonate (not damp). If the crankshaft absorbs energy at these frequencies, the undamped behavior allows large stresses to accumulate and break the crankshaft. By attaching a weight to the crankshaft one cam change the resonant frequency, hopefully moving it away from a typical operating RPM. By attaching two weights with a controlled amount of damping between, you can desensitize the crankshaft at several RPMs and allow a wide operating band. Therefore, the harmonic damper prevents the crankshaft from absorbing energy at certain (bad) RPMs. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1917 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ken, the harmonic balancer fits on the end of the crank and balances out the viberations caused by the engine. Almost all engines have one. If they fail , you can damage the engine by the severe viberations that result. The rubber tension springs in mine have been saturated with oil over the years. While it still works, I am having it replaced while the engine is out. Otherwise, if it failed in a year or so I would have to have the engine removed again to replace it. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 265 Registered: 2-2002 |
What is a harmonic balancer and what does it do? Ken | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1911 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bob, they're all money pits be they Ferarris or Dinos. I knew the car needed a clutch and major service when I got it. The harmonic balancer is being replaced as insurance since the engine is already out. I'm pleased there is nothing else wrong. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 1065 Registered: 3-2001 |
Frank, I hope your flat-12, non front-engined Dino BBi doesn't turn into a money pit (ouch). Hope they stop finding problem areas and let you drive it home soon so you can enjoy it! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 733 Registered: 10-2002 |
These days I'm confused too... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2002 |
James The exhaust parts he had coated. Headers, muffler clamps. Best Jim | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1910 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks JRV, but the entire clutch was replaced in December 2002. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1074 Registered: 11-2002 |
BTW, A BB/DD clutch tip: it's not a bad idea while the engines out of a Boxer to measure the wear on the clutch discs, and if they dictate, remove the "shims" under the PP and Intermediate Plate to give the clutch pac it's second lease on life. I'm not sure mabny are aware that the DD clutches come with shims so that when the discs wear down the shims are supposed to be removed, restoring proper working clearance. By removing the shims in time prevents very premature slipping and the consequent wear to the disks, neccesitating replacing the whole unit. If any of your mechanics didn't mention the neccesity of this check, they might be some of the ones that don't know or aren't familiar with this aspect of servicing Boxers. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 428 Registered: 6-2002 |
James G. - your post suggests re-torqueing after 300 miles. Are you referring to heads, or other parts that were restored? I would assume that it will not be necessary to re-torque the heads, as that is to be done while the valve shims are re-adjusted. Pardon my confusion. Jim S. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1072 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>FOA is being very kind IMHO to allow my Boxer to sit in one of their bays waiting for me to get the parts back to them<> By the way, I did just get an e-mail from FOA advising that my harmonic balancer is oil saturated and suggested that it be replaced for an additional $825.00. << Good thing they decided to have a better look around while they were waiting, missing that balancer problem wouldn't have been a good thing.. Here's one rebuilder I pulled off a search engine(Harmonic Balancer Rebuilding) DAMPER DOC 530-246-2984 California I know there are probably others as this is a common deal on Old American Car restorations. Must mention though, I'm not a fan of installing balancers that were'nt Dynamically Matched to the crank. However, if the new & old balancers are checked against each other and matched it will be better than a bad balancer. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1067 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>advising that my harmonic balancer is oil saturated and suggested that it be replaced for an additional $825.00.<< If it's bad it should be fixed while the engine is out, never seen that problem on a Boxer, as the oil has very little way of getting out to that part of the pulley, have seen them go bad with age on older Ferrari Engines though. They can be rebuilt as new for about $250...just had one done for a 246 Dino. I'll get the rebuilder contact info if you're interested. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1890 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks for the advice James. By the way, I did just get an e-mail from FOA advising that my harmonic balancer is oil saturated and suggested that it be replaced for an additional $825.00. What do you guys think ? Should I replace it now and is that a good price ? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 719 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank Cycle the parts you had coated carefully. Full warm up. Full cool down. Don't short trip. Avoid cold water. (Washing) on hot coated parts. Do not clean when hot. Torque evenly. Retorque after 300 miles. Best Jim | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1884 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, no because I am the one who picked up all the parts at FOA and carried them the places I am having them refinished and coated and I will carry them back to FOA for installation once complete. Where do you get that I made a special point that the job be done in 10 days or that I required any such assurances ? I never placed a 10 day requirement to have the job completed anyway. That was FOA's estimate before I even mentioned all the refinishing and coating I was having done independantly of the service work. FOA is being very kind IMHO to allow my Boxer to sit in one of their bays waiting for me to get the parts back to them. The delay is on me, not FOA. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1065 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, you made a special point about insisting it would be done in 10 days..'because of assurances', Running, Finished, Out The Door. I suggested that seemed a little fast based on the fact I've done many of them. Seems not done with excuses is the same as not done isn't it? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1881 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, the service itself is complete but FOA is still waiting on the cam belt covers, runners/plenums, valve covers, calipers and headers/mufflers to get back from refinishing and jet coating so they can put it all back together. As for the cost, I have a written agreement that labor will not exceed $3000.00. That does not include the cost that I am paying Bo Pirkle and Miller Coatings seperately for the refinishing work. Parts are expected to cost $1700.00 or so. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1062 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Well I dropped my Boxer off at FOA this morning. They said it will be ready to pick up in 10 days or so. I'll let you know if the $5k total price works out.<< How's it going? 11 days now, guess they should be completly finshed with the service and the engine back in the car minimum and firing it up at least, Ahy? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1874 Registered: 9-2001 |
Peter, are you referring to the heat shields that are welded to the headers themselves ? They are being coated along with the headers. It is costing me $450.00 for the headers, exhaust pipes and mufflers. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2002 |
frank, what are they doing w/heat shields on the headers? i am having mine done also...how much are they going to cost? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1859 Registered: 9-2001 |
And, I dropped offf my headers, exhaust pipes and mufflers off to be Jet Hot type coated. My car will be looking good once it is completed. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1817 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am having the water pump seal replaced. And, I am also having the calipers, runners/plenums, cam covers and timing belt covers refinished while the service is being done. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi Frank, I have been meaning to post when I saw you were going to put your car in for a major service. I had a major done on mine about 2 1/2 years ago. One of the things that was recommended and that I did was to replace the water pump. It turns out this is relatively inexpensive once the engine is out. But if it fails or develops a leak I was told the engine must come out. Just wanted to mention it. I imagine it will come up in your discussions with Ferrari of Atlanta. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1810 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well I dropped my Boxer off at FOA this morning. They said it will be ready to pick up in 10 days or so. I'll let you know if the $5k total price works out. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 490 Registered: 8-2001 |
Frank: I agree with you completely. Soon after this major, he DID put the car up for sale. That is why I feel I got a GREAT car at a fair price. What more can I ask for!!!!!! Coachi: I bought the car last July, and have driven it in the Midwest summer......I recall 95 degree days, in Chicago stop-and-go traffic......the engine never overheated......very cool inside the car, even with the windows up......of course, the air worked perfectly. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Frank, wait till the summer. If you have never owned a Boxer in the summer, then welcome to hot interior, bright reflection from the severely titled windows, then you will wish you had not spent all that money for all those services...5 grand though is quite nice...if they do a good job. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 1019 Registered: 3-2001 |
It's called FUD. Their goal is to instill Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1806 Registered: 9-2001 |
If my bill comes close to $27k I will soon have a Boxer for sale. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 487 Registered: 8-2001 |
I agree with Jim S. I bought an 83 BBi, which had the major service done, with the engine out. After looking at what all was done, by going over the service reciepts, I couldn't believe the EXTRA things that where performed. The guy ended up paying $27,000 for the major service.......and nothing was really wrong with the car!!!!!!!!! Of course, part of it was to get the engine (and area) in concourse condition. I'm glad HE did it and not ME. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1803 Registered: 9-2001 |
I would suspect that $6k parts/labor in S.F.,Ca. four years ago is close to the eqvialant of the $3k labor and $2k parts price I'm getting in Georgia now. | ||
| RANDOLPH MADAMBA (Pogibm)
New member Username: Pogibm Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2002 |
i've had my 79bb for 18years now i can tell you theres no shortcuts when it comes to 30k service with this car, engine needs to be pulled out and then start the service. as far as major service i started with $3500 back in 1985 to almost $ 6000 four years ago,maintanance of a boxer was never cheap. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1798 Registered: 9-2001 |
Yes I suspect that something will happen to cause the cost to increase. But, hopefully with a fixed labor price I can keep the cost down some. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 349 Registered: 6-2002 |
Frank - sorry - I thought I read someone's post that yours was a carbed Boxer. All the more problem. You may likely find that the pressure regulators, injectors, fuel pumps, etc., are in need of replacing or rebuild. I mention these things only in a constructive manner - I went into mine with a fixed bid, but got led down a path that resulted in substantially greater costs. The increase was not necessarily related to labor, but to parts and rebuild costs out of my or the service shops control. Sounds as though you have a handle on the project, and our experience is already factored into your project planning. Good luck. Jim S. | ||
| James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
New member Username: Dr_ferrari Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2002 |
Frank, If you are having it done at FOA, then i feel you are in very good hands. they do great work and the price you have is a good one. - go for it. Best regards, jim | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1792 Registered: 9-2001 |
The $3k quote for labor is an agreed price in writing(not an estimate) for what the factory specifies for a 30k major service. I do plan to pay extra to have my calipers, plenum/runners and cam covers refinished. James M, the work will be done by an authorized dealer with a 12 month guarantee and cam seals are a part of the deal. James S., my car is a BBi so I doubt the "carbs" are dirty. The clutch was rebuilt last month so it should be OK. Tensioner bearings are part of the agreed labor price. My water hoses and shocks were replaced in 1999. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 348 Registered: 6-2002 |
Frank - I have recently completed two 12 cylinder services (TR and Boxer). Here is what happens. You are quoted a price for labor. Not complicated. But once the engine is out (and I would suggest not approaching it any other way), you will be asked whether to replace water pump bushings, and how about tensioner bearings, and what about rebuilding the alternators while it's out, and these hoses are lookning a bit sorry, beginning to leak gas/water/hydraulic fluid, etc. Hey Buddy, do you want to detail the engine bay while we are at it? These carbs look dirty, should we clean them while out? You know, these clutch slave and master cylinders are leaking, and by the way, the clutch pedal has to travel too far, and perhaps we should inspect the throw-out bearing. We should change the transmission axle seals, and of course, wouldn't it be prudent to replace the main seal with the upgrade? Sorry for the dark cloud, but I chose to approach each service as an opportunity to get things back to factory specification, assuming that I won't ever (a long time) have to do it again. Once I knew everything was right - I could drive it for a long time and not worry about doing it again. The cost, when amortized over the life of ownership or when recaptured during resale, is reasonable. This presupposes, of course, that one can afford to do it correctly at this time. Nothing you don't already know. Jim S. | ||
| James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
New member Username: Dr_ferrari Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2002 |
Frank, I would worry more about who is doing the service and less on the cost. I know these days that price is an issue, but having the wrong guy doing the job will cost you more in the future. The value of the service will affect the value of your investment. As for engine in or out service, I would opt for removing the engine. you can at that point address all issue of the engine(i.e. cam seals, water pump seal, hoses, electrical connections, check oil pump, internal engine inspection etc...). you just can`t do it complete enough while engine is in. best regards, and good luck... Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 967 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>"Major Service In A Can"<<< Ha Ha Ha Ha...I know were're laughing but that happens far more often than we think. I've seen countless 15K services done with 4-6 cans of carb spray, cheap too...lol. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Now that VW is making Lambo's maybe they'll use that Audi system. Watching them remove and replace the entire rear from the engine back in the pits in a matter of minutes was really something. Once again thanks for showing how it should be done. Best Jim | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 587 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt One of those nanobots could get in there easy. Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 965 Registered: 11-2002 |
Matt, it is "possible" to get the covers off and adjust the valves, even the exhaust. I have done it before. However when denied full acess and a comfortable working position it's very difficult to produce the same long lasting quality results one can achieve with the Engine Out, and on a stand. The ability to see and reach everything to inspect, clean and service just can't be matched trying to leave the engines in. Quality, Long Lasting Results are what most owners expect when getting their Ferraris serviced, and taking shortcuts just can't deliver equal results. Here's a pic of an Engine Out (TR) on a Stand.....it's the single best way to do a quality long lasting oil leak free job.  | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2210 Registered: 8-2002 |
Frank, the engine is against the firewall with about 2 inch clearance  | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2209 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, Costco sells that for $800. You got ripped!!! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1789 Registered: 9-2001 |
I know Shelton did the cam belt service on my ex-348 Spider with the engine in the car by dropping the fuel tank. I do not know if that can be done on a Boxer. But, the price I have been quoted for my Boxer is for an engine out service. FOA guarantees all its work for 12 months. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 586 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Of course you can do a major service without removing the engine. You don't even have to open the hood. Go to Pep Boys and buy "Major Service In A Can", pour it into gas filler and give customer a bill for $1000. He'll be thrilled. Best Jim | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2206 Registered: 8-2002 |
Guys, two words... VALVE SHIMS It cannot be done correctly with the engine in the car | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 964 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I would pay to see a 30k done on a 512bbi with the engine still in the car.<<< So would I Matt. and definately require a side bet on leaking oil at the end. ;-) Now I've seen plenty of services where the cam covers never came off (cheap prices too)...maybe that's "the secret" I've been missing out on all these years! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 963 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> you do not need to pull the engine on a Boxer to do a 30K. Everything can be done properly with the engine in.<< BALONEY!! There's doing things fast and doing things right! They are far from being the same. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 200 Registered: 5-2002 |
JRV I like your last post. Doing a good job in a timely manner is the way to go. You are a pro. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2205 Registered: 8-2002 |
I would pay to see a 30k done on a 512bbi with the engine still in the car. It's close to impossible to do the service and NOT pull it out. Hell, getting the cam covers off is hard. There is about 1 1/2 clearance from the engine to the wheel wells. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2002 |
Guys: Here is a big secret that good Ferrari mechanics do not want to be made public - you do not need to pull the engine on a Boxer to do a 30K. Everything can be done properly with the engine in. Many of the old timers do this and have been doing this for years. It is only the new guys, or the mechanics who do not know what they are doing, that take the engine out. The numbers you have been quoted Frank are very fair and reflect my facts above. FOA is a good place (from what I have heard). Ken | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 962 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, that's great. I think $6500 is a very realistic number with $8500 being expensive and $5500 being the very low end. However the average dealer labor rate is $100-$110ph...while the average independent is $70-$85ph...the parts are a somewhat fixed number for a 'standard' service, while time and quality is not a fixed situation. Having done quite a few personally and worked on Ferraris of almost every make and model for many years daily, I tend to try and leave room labor wise for keeping quality as the overiding factor on time rather than the clock. In my years I've given away lots of hours, but that doesn't mean that the free hours weren't part of what it really takes. How long it really takes and what the parties agree the charges will be in advance aren't neccesarily the same thing. When I work, the first thing I do is clean everything....for one thing I can't stand working on a dirty Ferrari engine, for another I don't want to deliver back a dirty product and thirdly I'm not in some kind of a race to get finished. Being careful and doing a perfect, beautiful job is far more important to me personally than trying to beat some clock or set some record for how fast the job can be done. And in my years of experience, when perfection is the goal for the end result, things just take longer than one thinks they will. Wham Bam Thank You Mam, just isn't the way one achieves a high degree of quality and satisfied clients on Ferraris imo. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 198 Registered: 5-2002 |
Frank, is the work guaranteed? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1788 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, the quote is via e-mail and he says he will adjust his hourly rate down if necessary to keep the labor at $3k max ! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 959 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>IMHO 32 hours total time is a little high ! << If you say so. I've done quite a few personally and never felt like they were as easy as pulling a chevy V8. Let us know...personally I think the final bill will be more representative of reality than the phone quote. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1786 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, from what I have been told by several Ferrari techs, the Boxer engine is one of the easiest to remove of all Ferraris, even easier than the V8 Dinos. After the rear hatch is removed, the engine is easily accessable to get to and remove. About like removing a small block Chevy engine from a Camaro or something. It only has a total of 24 valves which is 1/2 of the 328, 348 and TR engines. IMHO 32 hours total time is a little high ! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 958 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>$8500.00 for such a service is a crime. << I don't know if it's a crime or not, just what the going dealer quote is. Call around to other dealers, maybe they all got religon simualtaniously in the last couple months? 32 hrs seems on the unrealistly low side of the spectrum to me, 32 hours for a carbed 308 or 32 hrs for an engine out BB512?. Maybe with two guys going balls out...and only charging one for two. Most shops charge one hour per man, but maybe they're not? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1784 Registered: 9-2001 |
$8500.00 for such a service is a crime. With the down economy I suspect Ferrari dealers are feeling the pinch in their service, parts and sales departments. This may be the time to use a dealer for work where you may otherwise use a privateer. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2755 Registered: 9-2001 |
When I made inquires about this I was quoted around 5-6k so sounds about right | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 955 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dealers normaly charge $8500 for a major on a BB512. Sounds like a heck of a good deal..60% off standard charge. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1782 Registered: 9-2001 |
Matt, yes it is an engine out 30k service that includes valve adjustment, new cam belts, fluids/filters, ect... I have been told that it takes 1 day to remove the engine, 1 1/2 days to do the service and 1 1/2 to put the engine back in and get it running properly. Thats 32 hours total time. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2198 Registered: 8-2002 |
If they are doing an engine out, It's a steel. Pulling the engine is a 20 hour job. I need a major next month. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1780 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have been quoted a flat rate of $3k in labor plus approximately $2k in parts for a major service for my Boxer from FOA. How does that compare to the prices you guys are paying ? |