| Author | Message | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 222 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill, Read some of this thread about power gains. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 316 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ric, I can't find my 348GT data sheet, I think weight is around 2700lb wet. This is one reason they were not too succesful. Justin, that looks very home-made, grassroots installation. Non-turbo. Note the laundry dryer ducting available at hardware stores, tacky. Sucks in nice hot exhaust-heated air, poor intake design. Looks like an additional oil cooler on top the gearbox. Built or finished by someone with limited resources or/and abilities. | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 187 Registered: 10-2002 |
Is this a F348 Turbo Engine Mod ???  | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 504 Registered: 2-2002 |
How much did the 348 GT's weigh? | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2002 |
The exhaust cam modification is only for US spec cars as Euro's already are this cam timing spec from the factory. In the US, Ferrari reduced valve overlap period to clean up emissions and give a slight, slight boost to lower end torque, thinking that the US driver will not notice or use all the top end HP, though IMHO, this is emissions related mostly. The exhaust cam is advanced to increase valve overlap period, a well-known method of increasing high rpm HP, basically shifting the power curve up. It works due to the shortened time at high rpm for the A/F mixture to enter the combustion chamber. Justin, your car most likely has this spec already. Ps, I am familiar with the 348 GT spec, as I had a customer interested in purchasing one, and researched / advised him at that time (1994). | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rob, I have never heard of this exhaust timing specification works. Please explain. The larger plenum I thought was on the 348 GTS and GTB the later models 1993 onwards ? I undersatnd that is where the 20 BHP increase came from. 300 BHP on the TS and TB models 1989 to late 1992. Is this correct. The F348 GTC Competezione was 320 Bhp, but only 50 were built. They had F40 brakes, kelvar seats, enamal scuderia badges, chrome gearknob and peddals and not forgetting carboin fibre front fenders and door and kelvar sills. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2002 |
Justin, you just reminded me that in the US, we never saw the larger intake plenum for the 348, though a couple of Challenge competitors tried this. I never saw the specifications and differences. BTW, I'm trying to come up with the euro exhaust cam timing specifications allowed in the US for Challenge. If you're droping the engine for service, that's the time to do this modification. It's worth some top end power and nice idle rumble, too. The only cost is time and new belts. You just re-index the cam pully as it's built to do so from the factory. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
Junior Member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2002 |
Justin, You've got mail - My questions were a little long for here. Thanks. | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 167 Registered: 10-2002 |
David, I have a 1994 spider. Look at my post on this thread. The Spider had 320 BHP like the 348 GTS and GTB 1993 onwards. The 348's TS and TB from 1989 to late 1992 had 300 BHP. The 320 BHP was a more advanced/newer Bosch montonic injection system and the Plenum chamber was larger. I had my 348 spider chipped. They results are on this thread. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
Junior Member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2002 |
I was told that the chips used in the 348 Spiders already have the improvements that these after market guys make. Is this true ?? Most of the posts here that talk about improvements on their 348's are on the 89-92 models. Before I buy the new chips I would like to know for sure that I am not just buying a similar chip to what the factory provided in the later 348 Spiders. Any comments | ||
| Dino Micalizio (Ingenere)
New member Username: Ingenere Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2001 |
Swapping out the chips on the 348 is VERY simple. The first one took 45 minutes..the second 10. Once you figure it out...it's a piece of cake. Mine is a 2.5 and was just a snap in/out process. The results were brilliant. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 372 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bruce, From what I understand you can get a chip upgrade for both the 2.5 Unit as well as the 2.7 Unit. Powerchips as well as Koenig both sell chips for both units. Walter Koenig told me that you actually can get more of a power gain out of the old 2.5 systems than you can out of the 2.7 systems. I would give either of these companies a call, if you are interested I can get you their numbers, so you can talk to technical people not sales people. Big difference is installation. I am pretty sure that the 2.5 units must be soldered in place and are not a chip/socket design. | ||
| Bruce R. Morehead (Brm)
New member Username: Brm Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2002 |
Does anyone know the difference between the Motronic 2.5 and 2.7 units? My 1990 348tb has the 2.5 units. Will the chip upgrade give the same results or do I have to get the 2.7 units and then the chip upgrade? | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 371 Registered: 1-2002 |
If I remember correctly most of the changes that are made in the ECU for non-turbo cars are advancing the igntion timing curve a significant amount to create more power. I dont think this really results in a difference in the AF ratio, but then again I have nothing to base it against as I first tested the stock chips and didnt even thing about measuring AF. Does anyone know the AF from the factory? | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 369 Registered: 1-2002 |
Steve, I am still running with the O2 sensors plug in, they reside in the 348 ahead of the cat anyway so are meant to deal with the pure engine exhaust versus some of the O2 sensors which are meant to deal with it after it has passed through the cats. I measured the AF ratio on the chip runs and they were between 12.5:1 and 13.5:1 throughout the whole run. Seemed to be a little lean at idle but once the gas pedal started getting stepped on evened out. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 265 Registered: 11-2002 |
Steve, IME, the OEM Bosch lambda sensors are not designed to give good mixture quality information. One needs at least the Bosch 5 wire "wide band" (OEM on lean burn economy cars) and even better a true UEGO sensor for $500. The OEM Bosch is great for what it was designed for but is not sensitive enough in the area we're interested in. Beware the $100 A/F meters at they also use a sensor not optimized to read mixture for best power. Go to a shop with an expensive Motec A/F sensor and rent dyno time to get the date we're all interested in.  | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1435 Registered: 1-2001 |
John -- You mentioned "no Cats" in both your test configurations, but does that also mean "no O2 sensors" or are the O2 sensors still hooked up to the ECU? If the O2 sensors are still there and hooked up have you ever measured their output voltage difference with and without the ECU chip change to confirm the lower AF ratio with the powerchips? | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 368 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dan, They were $990 bucks including next day shipping. I have a whole pdf from them laying out the testing they did and what not. If you are interested drop me an email or post here and let me know and I will send it to you. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 367 Registered: 1-2002 |
Well everyone here are the lone awaited dyno charts that I have gotten back. I hope this picture isnt to small and you can actually see the data. Bottom line 354bhp assuming an 18% tranny loss from the start on the dyno. Pretty damn impessive if you ask me! The baseline comparison you are looking at is my car with the K&N, Tubi, no Cats running 95 octane gas. The powerchips numbers are my same car in the baseline with the powerchips in, and a 20 minute highway burn in for the chips to relearn after having the power disconnected.  | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 366 Registered: 1-2002 |
sorry the god damn images are to big to post by a few pixels here and there....I will resize them and get them up to the board tonight. I will post the dyno results soon though, cause I know that is what everyone is really interested in! | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 365 Registered: 1-2002 |
remove ECU cover behind passenger and drivers seats. There are two flat head screws holding each cover in place I found the easiest way to remove the cover is to get a finger underneath the cover and as you are unscrewing the screws slowly pull up.  Each motronic unit is held in by two 10mm nuts backed by washers. Be careful not to lose the washers as it is really easy to drop them down in the carpet (I now have two down there!). After the unit has the two 10mm nuts remove pull it away from its mounting on the firewall and remove the actual ECU cabling the runs to the engine. This is done by pulling back on the aluminium clip and then pulling the connector out by moving it in a downward motion. You will easily see which way the connector comes undone once the aluminum clip is released. Once you have the box out of the car take it inside to your table or somewhere same....you really dont want to drop this thing, I think the cost from Ferrari is 1k per box. The BOSCH number on the yellow sticker is the ECU box identification number. Most chip companies require you to give them this number to determine which chip they need to sell you. I know that Superchips, Koenig, and Powerchip all require this chip, Powerchip also required the actual software number as well which is on the ECU chip itself contained in this casing. To remove the lid of the casing flip the box over on its back and you will see that the top of the casing is held on by about 10 metal clips. You need to bend these back with a small flat tipped screw driver till they are vertical and look like they can slid out of the hole they are in. These little buggers are a pain in the ass to get undone sometimes. But persistance pays off young grasshopper, and once all the tabs are bent back you can pull off the top of the casing. Be very careful handling the internals of the Motronic unit as they are just like anyother computer system and very sensitive to static. You first need to remove the platic thing-a-ma-jig on the bottom of the casing with a flat tipped screw driver. This secures the top PCB to the bottom PCB, to make sure vibration doesnt hurt the unit to bad. Once this clip is removed you need to pull up gently but firmly on the side away from the actual connection to the engine. There are two plastic plugs that secure the top PCB to the bottom here. There are cables runing between these plastic parts, make sure you dont pull to hard as to pull of these. You should hear each side pop out of its holder. Once you hear these two clicks and see that the PCBs are free there is one more step to complete before you can actually open up the unit fully. Move to the connector end of the motronic unit and you will see that the top level on pins is actually connected to the top PCB and is not part of the full unit. To open the case you need to release the two tabs on each side of this set of pins, and then take the trusty flat tip screw driver and again wedge the pins down so that they slide underneath the edge holding them in place, all this needs to be done while you are gently puling back on the top PCB (the one connected to the pins). This is probably the trickiest part of removing the whole unit just take your time and be patient it will come undone. When it finally pulls free, open the unit like a book using the wiring as the binding and lay it flat in front of you. Take a deep breath and admire the 1980 techonology that runs your 348!! Working at IBM as I do I was amazed at how simple the technology was in this case. These processors and chips in here were over 10 years old when the car was new! It is amazing that all the chips were made in 1980 with the ECU being made in 1984! Anyway the main ECU is hidden underneath a plastic cover. This cover is easily removed by gently pulling each side up a little at a time around the ECU using either a screw driver or your finger nails. Once again I have to tell you to be careful in here and not bang the ECU or PCB to hard with a screw driver and what not, just take your time and be careful. Once the white plastic case has been removed from the ECU, you will be able to read the actual software number on top of the chip. To remove the chip just simple place the flat tipped screw driver under the edge of the chip and gently pry up. Do this slow on each end of the chip easing the pins out of the socket. Eventually you will get to the point you can just grap the chip and pull upwards to remove it the rest of the way. Now you can go about replacing the chip with your new ECU. First set the new chip on top of the socket and make sure all the pins line up. If they dont use your fingers to bend them slightly till they do. Once everything is lined up grap the PCB in your hand and push down on the chip while supporting the underneath of the socket (bottom of the PCB) with your hand. You will know when to stop because you will see that the thicker part of the pins is all that is remaining exposed. Now its time to package everything back up. First put the white plastic cover back on the ECU, then posistion the top PCB board so that you can push the row of pins it has back through the connector. Basically all you have to do is everything in reverse and you will have it all back together in now time flat. Enjoy the new found power!!!! | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hey guys sorry about not getting the info posted this weekend I had to run off on a business trip. I will be back tomorrow and have all the info posted by tomorrow night along with pictures and the dyno charts. Lets just say 354 horse power assuming a 18% loss in the tranny is a nice start, and Gtech noticed a nice difference as well! | ||
| Dan Marlett (Ferrari_dan)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_dan Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hey John, I am very interested in the procedure to upgrade the ECU's. Please post whatever information you have. Also, what did the power chips run? I would like to do this to my car in the near future. | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Junior Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 250 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey John where are you having the dyno ran? Is there possibly room to come and watch the 348 get dyno'd? If not no big deal just never seen the process | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 361 Registered: 1-2002 |
Damn Justin man if you are pushing down 350 NA at the rear wheels I am seriously amazed! The head work that was done must have really worked some magic. I am hoping to be putting down near 280-290 at the rear wheels. Jeff you car sounds awesome I think I am going to call Norwood tomorrow and just chat for a little bit to get some ideas of what they can do. Besides that I will have the read me for the ECU install with pictures posted tomorrow I am transfering them from my digital camera as I am typing this. Dyno numbers will follow shortly! :P | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 243 Registered: 7-2002 |
I bought the car with the twin turbo work already done. The Motec was also installed. The only upgrade I bought, was the intercooler. It was about $3500 installed, and tuned. I'd guess the total upgrades on this car would be in the area of $25,000. To get it from "stock" to this level. Keep in mind the hardware is in place on this car to bring MUCH more power. I am running boost of 14.8 psi. It is water/air intercooled, boost could be run much higher. I would need to make a few small adjustments to make it happen correctly, ie. up the fuel pressure, higher volume fuel injectors, and remap the motec........ | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gents, My figures are taken from the Rolling Road Rollers. As I would understand that would be from the rear wheels ???? I have seen and read about some racing 348 pushing out 450 BHP plus, I actually posted the information not long back on a Thread... | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 359 Registered: 1-2002 |
Neal, I have a Gtech as well and am going to do some runs there, however I hate to beat the tranny a lot so getting good performance numbers is a little tricky. I will though get some Gtech numbers tomorrow night maybe, and then get the real Dyno numbers this weekend. Jeff - if you dont mid me asking what does the Norwood conversion run? I am intersted in it for another 348 a friend is building up. But man 415hp is sounding very temping to me!! John | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 83 Registered: 3-2002 |
i would be interested to see what these mods do when tested on a gtech analyzer or similar device on the street | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 242 Registered: 7-2002 |
That was my first thought. However, he states bhp or "brake horse power" ie at the wheels. Thats what threw me. I agree 415 seems about right for the motor. We guessed, (with Bob's input) that it was in the vacinity of 410-425 at the crank. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 358 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jeff I think Justin is showing adjusted horsepower to the crank where as you are talking good old rear wheel numbers. If you are pounding down 350 at the rear wheel you are way above Justins car and putting out somewhere near 415 at the crank. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 357 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob - I agree with you about the cold air! My baby loves the nice cold air up here in the winter...however it doesnt deal to well with the snow. The seat of the pants opinion was based on me taking the car out before hand (about 8pm) and driving around then going home and changing out the ECUs and driving around again at about 10:30. Granted ambient temperature dropped about 5-6 degrees in that time but I dont think it made that much of a difference. I wanted to make sure I got a good feeling for both with and without the chip on the same day so I wasnt relying to much on my memory. Everyone else - I have the dyno lined up for Saturday morning and will post the results as soon as I get back Saturday evening. I have a Tubi no cats, K&N, and Magnecor wires already on the car so I will do two pulls with the old chips and then two pulls with the new chips. Of course I will give each chip a burn in period of 20 minutes to reset itself after being plugged back in before getting back on the dyno. I figure this is going to give me the most accurate and reliable information doing back to back pulls. I plan on adjusting to crank hp based on 18% loss in the tranny. I look forward to getting the numbers off to you guys. I will put the pictures and a write up up tonight or tomorrow about the procedure. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 240 Registered: 7-2002 |
Justin, These results are IMPRESSIVE to say the least! My 348 twin turbo'd with Motec engine management, custom mapped fuel/air mixture by Bob Norwood running with the boost set to 14.8 psi Dynos at 350bhp, (I know it's redundant, but yes, at the rear wheels). This of course on the Chassis dyno, (redundant again). With very simpiliar upgrades and no boost how do you achieve these type results? | ||
| Chuck Rine (Chuck348ts)
Junior Member Username: Chuck348ts Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2001 |
John S, Please post the procedure and dyno results. | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2002 |
Guys, These are my fiqures on my 348 Spider.  My F348 Performance Data 0-100 km/h - 4.7 sec / 0-60 mph - 4.6 sec Top speed is 295 Km/h / 183 mph Max Rpm Limit - 8200 rpm Max Power Output � 269 Kw / 365 bhp (PS) at 7,800 rpm Max Torque � 375Nm / 278 lbs/ft at 5,200 rpm Graph Representation Data Blue Line represents the standard Power Output Red Line represents the increase Power Output � ECU/Ignition/Injection Mapping Upgrade ONLY Further Power Output increase � As per Performance Upgrades listed below My F348 Performance Upgrades 1. Dimex / H&S Electronik Engine Upgrades ECU/Ignition/InjectionMapping Upgrade, Adjustable Bosch Fuel Regulator Upgrade, Tubi Design Non Cat- 316L Polished Stainless Steel �Free Flowing� Exhaust System, Optimisation of Airflow with K&N Filter System, NGK Platinum Racing Plugs, Gas Flowed heads with polished valves & seats. Regards, Justin | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 295 Registered: 11-2002 |
I am also interested in the data. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 238 Registered: 7-2002 |
I've gotta believe there is a possible difference. My car is twin turbo'd BUT boost below 2500 RPM's is slight. However, it is MOTEC controlled- that's right no 348 ecu's. The difference in low rpm throttle response between mine and a "stocker" is large. Seems much quicker. | ||
| john beaucher (Spider348)
New member Username: Spider348 Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2002 |
I would be interested in seeing the data. My new to me 348 spider has "silverstone" ECU chips installed by the Ferrari fanatic original owner. He claimed these are the chips run in the challange cars and provide a measurable gain. True or not? I have no clue. I will say that of the 5 348 spiders I test drove, this was the srongest. Again only my seat of the pants opinion. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 244 Registered: 11-2002 |
Part of what your pants felt is good quality, dense, cold air, which is great for power. You can pick up 10 hp if your engine's gulping 28oF air vs. 90oF air in the summer. Plus, the humidity is way down, and water vapor in the air reduces the available oxygen for the engine to eat. Dyno'ing is a great idea, though there are correction factors plugged into Dynojets to "corect" for ambient conditions and estimated drive train losses. Remember, this is an estimate, so the best comparison is back-to-back same day with the different components. I look forward to seeing the data. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 356 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hey guys - As most of you know I fudge around with the 348 quite a lot trying to get the most out of her without an drastic changes to the motor. This past week I ordered a set of PowerChips from the powerchip group and installed them in the 348 tonight. Living in the great state of Minnesota as I do, I am not to able to drive the car during the winter but tonight was a beautiful night and I had to see if the seat of my pants felt like there was the performance gain the powerchip group was claiming. So far all I can say is hell yeah by the seat of my pants, off throttle responce is so SO much better and there is a feeling of more power being made between 3500 and 6000 RPMs. Powerchips factor claims are pretty high (something like 20bhp), which I am going to try and verify for the good Ferrarichatters this weekend if the weather cooperates at a dyno up in Minneapolis. I was just wondering as I documented the whole proceedure with my digital camera if any one is interested in me posting a how to? It is about a 2 hour proceedure to change both chips out being very careful with the ECU and what not, but so far it feels like it was worth the money. Let me know if any of you 348er's or others out there are interested and I will be more than happy to post the proceedure along with the dyno results I get this weekend. John |