| Author | Message | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 283 Registered: 9-2001 |
I've noticed the same problem w my '85QV--only when hot, it hesitates to start readily after being shut off for a brief period of time. I usually have to stop cranking and start over--after that it starts right up. How difficult of a job is it to replace the fuel pump check valve and accumulator? Does one have to remove the fuel pump to replace either? How does one depressurize the system before doing these jobs? A step by step instruction would be appreciated. | ||
| Terry V. Johnson (Tvj)
New member Username: Tvj Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2003 |
TO: Phildo Did your mechanic solve your hot-start problem? | ||
| Phil Bryson (Phildo)
Junior Member Username: Phildo Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2002 |
I've had the hot start issue since I picked up the car last summer (85 308QV). I hope to get it back today after having the warm up regulator replaced and the rest of the system checked out. As I understand it, the issue is a leak down of fuel pressure. The task is to find the mechanism for the loss. My mechanic put gauges in multiple place to isolate the issue. I've been told by both my mechanic and a Bosch specialist that it is typically not the injectors themselves as they close tightly upon shut down - but that could indeed be a cause. Hopefully, I won't have to worry any more about it starting up after running into a store or filling the tank. | ||
| Terry V. Johnson (Tvj)
New member Username: Tvj Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
1984 308 QV GTSi, 40K miles. Two previous owners report this hot-start problem and I have had it also and it was getting worse. Three "expert" third-party mechanics have attempted a fix. No joy. Last third party reported accumulator and check valve were fine, "fixed it" via mixture adjustment but it would barely start on his shop floor. Vehicle is now in the hands of a western state dealer. He avers "new design injectors" will solve 99% of problems. Whaddya do? He is doing that. "New design?" Same part number but made of brass rather than steel like originals, he says. Change of metal, without internal design change, makes no sense. But if it goes "vroom," it's jake with me. I can't imagine Bosch would make bad injector in the first place. I am a first-time owner and very much appreciate this thread. Can anyone advise me on alleged "new design injectors?" Thanks. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 691 Registered: 3-2001 |
Right next to the fuel pump. It is located under the driver sides at the bottom close to/toward the firewall. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2002 |
Where is the accumulator located? Ken | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 609 Registered: 5-2001 |
This may be a bit off subject but I had a really bad COLD start problem with one of my Sciroccos once. It absolutely drove me crazy. The colder the outside temp, the less likely it would fire up. It was very predictable: 50 degrees=hard to start, 40=VERY hard to start, 30=no start. Always the same. I checked everything I could think of including making my own test light with LEDs and resistors from RadioShack. Everything tested good but the damn thing still wouldn't start if it was freezing cold outside. A mechanic I use sometimes kept saying the CO was off and I kept thinking he was full of ••••. Finally I took it down to him. The second we put the probe in the tailpipe (no cat) it clogged the tip. It was running that rich. We adjusted the CO (and absolutely nothing else) and it completely solved the problem. All this winter never a single cold start issue. Like JRV is saying, don't overlook the basics. Double check there first. (By the way, a 308 FI and a VW FI from the 80's isn't that different.) | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1031 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stephen, if the tech adjusting the mixture didn't take readings pre-cat and adjust accordingly = pre-cat....that would be where I would start looking for answers. It's sometimes easy to overlook the obvious. 308QV pre-cat @ 1000 rpms = .80% - 1.0% CO oxy sensor disconnected, access hole in FD plugged. | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2002 |
JRV, You raise a pertinent point in my case; I recently had a smog test and the car was leaned out. Could this be the culprit? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1028 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm sure everyone knows this, thought I'd mention it anyway.....The Fuel Mixture is 'very important' to hot starting, about 1% CO warm/hot is optimum. | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mitchel, Was the fuse tied to your hot start problem? I'll check it out tonight. Thanks again to all the suggestions. Steve | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member Username: 4re308 Post Number: 776 Registered: 6-2001 |
Stephen, please don't forget to check the fuel pump fuse in the box. I had a hot start issue, until we found my fuse holder was a little tarnished and we sandpapered it, and it fired right up. Also check your cold start valve, the blue thing on the side of the red intake. | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 409 Registered: 4-2001 |
Steve M. - that is exactly what my pump looks like> Stephen - brothers indeed! It is interesting that they made a Euro and US car so close together. Perhaps the numbers are not really what the seem to be? And thanks, it called Sera Blue. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1450 Registered: 1-2001 |
No problem Steve R. -- if you or anyone else is interested in one or both 120098 check valves just shoot me an email. | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Junior Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 178 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oops, the part was for Steve C, not me. No worries and have fun you two. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1020 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>1. leak down is not caused by injectors, unless its the cold start injector. This is because in the fuel distributor the plunger closes off the small slits that feed fuel to the injectors when not running. << The Above is Correct!...I didn't want to offend some by posting the correct info..but now that the "truth" has been revealed I'll concur. | ||
| Larry Fletcher (Fletch62)
New member Username: Fletch62 Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have read several messages about hot start problems and need to clear up some things about the k-jetronic aka CIS fuel injection. 1. leak down is not caused by injectors, unless its the cold start injector. This is because in the fuel distributor the plunger closes off the small slits that feed fuel to the injectors when not running. 2. To check the accumulator remove the small hose from the steel nipple and plug the hose. Then jump the fuel pump so it runs and if fuel leaks out of the nipple then the accumulator is bad. 3. Test the pressure regulator (its in the fuel distributor) by running the fuel pump and then shut the pump off and immediately remove the return fuel line from the fuel distributor and there should not be more than one drop every ten seconds. 4. If these tests pass then replace the check valve in the fuel pump. The pressure regulators and o-rings in the fuel distributors could be getting bad now due to age and limited use of these cars. These are the things I find when rebuilding fuel distributors and information from experience on this system, and tech service calls from shops all over the US and Canada. Anyone needing more info contact me. Larry Fletcher CIS Flow Tech Llc 225-273-0331 | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1449 Registered: 1-2001 |
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| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2002 |
Stu, Our cars are practically brothers; 5 cars apart! Interesting that yours is a Euro and mine US car. Guess they're all on the same assembly line. Terrific color!! What is the name for that color? Steve | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1448 Registered: 1-2001 |
I think the '83QV and '84-'85QV might use different approaches (i.e. '83QV uses fuel pump with internal check valve and external fuel union per Greg's description; whereas, the '84-'85QV use the fuel pump with the external banjo style check valve). Unfortunately, the 308QV SPCs on the Owner's site are a little confusing in this area, but I just wanted to point out there might be a difference depending on year. I believe this is what the '84-'85QV fuel pump (121727) with the external check valve (120098) looks like:  | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 408 Registered: 4-2001 |
Hummmm......I have the same issue with my 85 and I replaced both the fuel pump, check valve and the accumulator with no results. I give it a few pumps when warm and that does seem to help a bit, however I then can smell fuel which makes me think I shouldn't be doing that. BTW - 55541 here  | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2002 |
Phil, Our QV's are only 98 cars apart! (55551) Anyone with 55553 or 55549 at Fchat? Steve M. I'm going to inspect the fuel pump tonight. I'll email you if I have the banjo valve. Thanks for the generous offer! Steve | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Junior Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 177 Registered: 4-2002 |
Steve M, Many thanks, will check tomorrow and my service records tonight... EDIT... Just checked with Ferrari UK parts and yes, it seems my 308 employs the 120098. As Jeff did a MAJOR fuel line redo on his (now my) car, he may have done the valve as well. Calling him now... Left message, please hold part for me for 24-48 hours. MANY thanks. ALL help is ALWAYS appreciated. Enjoy the Drive, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1447 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve C. -- if your '85QV uses the later banjo style fuel pump check valve like this (F PN 120098):  and you want one give me a shout. I accidentally ordered 2 not realizing that the two TR fuel pumps I also ordered already came with the check valves installed -- I'd be glad to pass them on for less than my cost ($10 each) plus shipping ($5). | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Junior Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 175 Registered: 4-2002 |
Stephen, The owner's manual clearly states you may need to give the car a little gas while starting when warm. This appears to be normal or they would not put it in the manual. Hope this helps. Enbjoy The Drive, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thanks all, Phil, you hit it on the nose my friend; nothing worse than walking out to the shinny Ferrari and getting a no start. Luckily, hasn't happened yet, but I know it's just a matter of time. I'll be sure to get the car in asap to resolve this. Fchat is one of the best communities around. All the best to you guys/gals! | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 680 Registered: 3-2001 |
I had the same problem on my QV. (check valve) The trick is that 2 check valves are made. I didn't want to buy the new pump with the banjo line. It took me a while to find the check valve that fits stock with out any mods. It will look just like the union piece that connects to the metal line which goes to the accumulator. It is around $34 if you can find it. Solved my problem. I tried winding the spring back down in my pump before I installed it to see if it would help but it didn't. Just to let you know my pump came with an internal check valve. HTHs. | ||
| Phil Bryson (Phildo)
Junior Member Username: Phildo Post Number: 79 Registered: 8-2002 |
Steve, Believe me, I have felt your pain. My 85 308QV (s/n 55355) wouldn't start when hot - frustrating and quite embarrassing as well. It is not normal. The problem is a loss of pressure in the fuel system. It could be the check valve or accumulator as mentioned. Another option is the warm up regulator. This is what the culprit was on my car. It's in the shop as we speak being replaced. It took setting up gauges at various points to isolate the problem. Check out this thread for additional information: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/153890.html I'm told pumping the throttle has no effect, but others have had success in doing so. Good luck, phil | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 522 Registered: 4-2002 |
I think Jeff is right on target. Check valve or accumulator probably leaking. This happened to another car of mine that uses the same FI system. It was accumulator leaking externally. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 176 Registered: 8-2002 |
I would check your fuel pump check valve, they keep the pressure if the car is warm, on cold starts it uses the cold start valve to give it fuel It may also be the accumulator, you can check it by disconnecting the line from the fuel pump when the car is warm and seeing if fuel leaks or by testin with a vaccum pump for leaks, you need to do this while the car is warm, if it leaks its not holding pressure and you should replace it | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 519 Registered: 5-2001 |
My 328 does the same thing. I have to give it some throttle to start when hot. My mechanic didn't have his diagnostic tools working when it was last in the shop, so I need to bring it back. He said it was either leaky injectors or bad fuel accumulator. Said his tools would tell which it was for sure.... | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2002 |
Hello All, I have noticed that the last few times out that the car has difficulties starting up once warm. Cold starts are no problem. The car needs to crank longer than a few seconds and eventually fires up. It runs fine and doesn't smoke at all. Any ideas would be most appreciated. Steve |