| Author | Message | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
New member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2002 |
Paul, I posted a photo on my other post, (timing gear pulley question). Yes both pulley are butted up against the outer bearing, they are within .1 mm of each other. The nuts are torqued and the same # of threads are showing on each. The gears are all metal and positioned correctly see photo. Everything was ok before I started the repair even though the outer bearing was toast, it was still tracking correctly. Rob | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 242 Registered: 12-2001 |
Robert, when the pullies are installed, are the threads protuding through the ring nuts the same on both gears? Is the rear shoulder of the gear against the inner race of the outer bearing? Are the gears the same depth from the front case to the outer lip of the drive gears? If all is ok then I would look elsewhere. This may be stupid but the cam gears have 1 lip each to guide the belt but are apposed to each other. How are yours arranged and are the gears plastic? | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
New member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2002 |
Timing Gear Pulley Bearing Drama (Part II) Thanks to all for their input so far! To update everyone on my current situation. I recently replaced all the bearings & seals in my timing case after the rear outer bearing failed. After driving 200 miles I noticed that the belt was riding right on the inside edge of the rear pulley. At first I thought that I had not put the pulley on all the way. I removed the pulley and seal and the bearing looked fine, however I noticed an almost imperceptible axial movement. I tightened up the pulley and the play seemed to go away. Even though my gut feeling said that there was something wrong (?) I reassembled everything (including new belts, seal and nut) and started the car. Everything was running great and I was very excited until I checked the timing belt, which was still running at the rear edge of the pulley. I have digital pictures I took after the outer bearing failed which show the belt tracking near the middle of the pulley, as is the front belt currently. I guess I will have to take everything apart to see if I can find something wrong. Have any of you seen anything like this before, or can you speculate on the cause. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 184 Registered: 11-2001 |
Robert Mine is out in my hands now and it has a slight amount of wiggle too. I am inclined not to worry about it. The bearings are all new now so it will at least last ... 15K miles. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
New member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2002 |
Verell, I am sorry I have not been more help but I have had some problems. Have you checked out my post on my timing gear pulley problem? You could be of some great help to me at this point in your assembly. 1. I am curious which outer bearing failed on your car. Mine was the rear one which had been replaced 15,000 miles ago on my car. 2. I am experiencing a very small amount of free play in the rear timing gear pulley shaft with the pulley and nut off. Could you grab one or both of the shafts and try to wiggle them. Mine is moving a very, very small amount, but enough so that I am considering disassembly all over again. The more I think about this the more I am thinking that my timing cover and engine block are slightly miss-aligned causing the small amount of free play and the failure of my last bearing on that side. If yours has any free play or wiggle than I will be less concerned, but if not then I am unsure how to proceed. Thanks, Rob | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2001 |
BOTTOM END IS BACK TOGETHER AGAIN After 3 weeks distraction with Non-Ferrari activities, I'm finally back on the job. RE-INSTALLING OIL PICKUP This was much bigger PitA than removing it. STUD INSTALLATION Hand threaded a new nylon lock nut onto the end of the stud just to the point where the stud hit the nylon. Object was for the nylon to provide enough resistance so the stud would screw into place rather than the nut screwing onto the stud. Then was able to put the nut end of the stud into the flex socket & use a pair of 10" extensions to screw the stud into place. The nut nicely backed-off of two of the studs. On the 3rd stud I had to use a pair of long angle tipped needle nose pliars to hold the middle of the stud while I backed the nut off. Then used the pliars to firmly seat each of the studs. Wasn't too bad once I'd ground down the socket so it'd flex easier. I ended up grinding down a Craftsman 10mm 1/4" drive flex socket. I ground it two ways: - About 1/8" off of the end to shorten it. This was just enough so that the flex would work easily on the front-right stud. Wish I'd done it before taking things apart. Made for fewer contortions. - Ground the socket wall down to about 1/3 or less of it's original thickness in order to fit between the nut & the tube wall. SNAP-ON ALTERNATIVE: I believe the snap-on shallow flex socket might work w/o modifications. Or would only need the sides ground down a little bit. It's a 12-point socket, & this is one time that would have been handy as well. GASKET TIP: Give one side of the oil pickup tube gasket a thin coat of RTV, then slip it into place RTV side up. The RTV will hold it while you're installing the tube. TUBE INSTALLATION TIP: Prior to installation thoroughly degrease the flange & the washers that go under the nuts. Glue the washers to the flange w/Crazy Glue. Now you only have to worry about getting the nuts started. Again, use the long extensions & cut-down flex socket with a thin magnetic insert to hold the nut in place while starting it. Still took a lot of tries to get each nut started. SUMP COVER INSTALLATION Since the sump cover gasket was in one piece & firmly attached to the sump. I just degreased it with brake cleaner until it dried oil-free. Put a ~1/8" dia bead of Permatex Ultra Black (very oil resistant) RTV down the center of the gasket, & routed it on the inside of each stud. It just barely extruded a bead when I screwed the cover down. I still think this way is a lot less work than pulling the engine & separating the halves. Thanx to Ric Rainbolt for letting us know it could be done this way. STUD LEAK In my post #126 in this thread I mentioned I thought a timing cover stud that might leak w/o an o-ring. Sure enough, It had a drop of oil on it last weekend. I pulled the nut off, sprayed brake cleaner up all around the stud, then blew it dry w/compressed air. I forced RTV up around the stud, then left a generous gob around the stud. When I screwed the nut on it appeared to force most of the RTV up around the stud. So far no further sign of oil. I'm happy to say that I'm done with the timing cover part of this project except for torqueing the ring nuts & flywheel damper bolt down once I've got the cam belts replaced & the tensioners tightened. Hope this is useful to someone else doing this project. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2001 |
PULLY-CASE MISSALIGNMENT WAS FALSE ALARM Sure 'Nuff, when I pushed the crank timing gear back into place(DUH), it rotated the belt drive pulleys. The marked grooves now are only miss-aligned by about 10% of the groove's width. The timing-crank gears are properly meshed after all. I think I'm going to slip a spacer into place instead of the crank pulley until I've got the timing belts installed. That way I can clamp the new belts into place on the drive pulleys while setting up the cam pulley pin locations. This should make belt installation a lot easier! Also, I'm going to take a section of used cam belt & make a tool that I can use to turn the cam pulleys. Something like an old-style oil filter tool. Now that I know it's there, It should be possible to take advantage of the drive train gear lash and the tool when installing the belts. For example, if the engine is rotated clockwise untill it the drive train lash is taken out. Then the clutch held in while aligning the flywheel to PM1-4. The crank can't move clockwise past PM1-4. But the lash would allow a few degrees of counter-clockwise rotation. When the crank is then rotated clockwise until it stops, it should be on PM1-4 again. For example, You need a small amount of belt slack to slip the belt into place. I could back the crank off 3-5 degrees, install the belt, then advance the crank until it's stopped on PM1-4. Any remaining timing gear lash would be taken out by rotating the timing gears clockwise with a wrench on the timing pulley ring nuts. Thanx for the help. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1855 Registered: 12-2000 |
Verell, for my rebuild I made a simple aluminum bar, with accurately drilled holes to bolt to the flywheel and the bellhousing stud, to prevent accidental turning:  Now, I realise you don't have the bellhousing off, but I think one of the Pressure-plate screws is visible through the timing window at PM 1-4. You may create something that can bolt to it and securely rest on the edge of the window to prevent accidental turning (?). | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2001 |
PULLEY ALIGNMENT MAY BE A FALSE ALARM, CAM PULLEYS CAN BE USED TO COMPENSATE. I just realized that I haven't installed the crankshaft damper. It will probably shift the drive gear further back on the crank which may bring the drive pulleys back into alignment. After reflecting some more since my post,reading Mitchell's post, & a helpful conversation w/Ric Rainbolt, I'm going to compensate for any remaining drive pulley miss-alignment w/the cam pulleys & their pin holes. REMOVING DRIVE GEAR LASH Since I've got my cam belts off, rotating the engine to take drive gear slop out is infeasble. However, I believe I should be able to remove the lash by using the ring nut to rotate the timing pulleys clockwise thus taking the lash out of their mesh w/the crank gear, and the crank gear-woodruff key slack. At worst, I'll discover that I need to re-position the cam pulleys after I've installed the belts & rotated the engine a couple of times to get the belt slack evened out. It's likely to be the case that a post-rotation 2nd adjustment is needed anyway. ENGINE ROTATION WHILE IN GEAR W/E-BRAKE EXPLAINED. Ric pointed out that there's enough gear lash in the power train to account for the PM1-4 movement I observed. The half-shafts + differential + tranny + the drive gears down to it from the clutch allow several degrees of lash. Probably noticably more lash than in a conventional in-line solid rear axle-differential-engine-clutch-tranny setup that most of my experience is with. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 164 Registered: 11-2001 |
I am about to reassemble the engine too and I have looked at this pretty closely. On my crank, the main drive gear on the crankshaft rotates slightly even with a new wooddruff key. What that tells me is there is enough slop on the main gear to accommodate the other 3 drive pulleys during assembly. It also means that you may not be able to get all the pulleys to line up perfectly with all the marks straight up. I also noticed that the pulleys at the cam shafts have 3 interference holes to adjust the timing of the cam/valves. You should be able to use those holes to reallign the cam so that the timing is perfect when TDC is achieved. Oh, only turns the crankshaft in the forward direction when you are doing any of this, otherwise the slop will screw you up. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 127 Registered: 5-2001 |
HOW MUCH DOES 1 TIMING GEAR TOOTH CHANGE TIMING PULLEY ALIGNMENT? I double checked the flywheel PM1-4 timing mark, and discovered It had shifted some time during the re-assembly. After I nudged it back into alignment, I discovered that the drive pulley grooves are now mis-aligned by ~1/2 of the groove. How much of a groove does shifting the timing gears one tooth on the crank gear rotate the pulley? Unfortunately, I think it's 1/2 groove in which case I've got to pull the cover again & re-mesh the gears. I t definitely shifted about 2 flywheel teeth. I had the car in 5th gear, with the parking brake solidly on. I've never had an engine move when using this method. I checked the PM1-4 mark just before I started removing the timing cover. Hmm, the crank may have shifted when I raised the lift after lowering it to check the PM1-4 mark. Being short, In order to look into the engine area, I brought the car down to where the wheels took up some weight. Maybe when I te-lifted the car, the left rear wheel rotated enough to shift the engine. BETTER WAY TO PREVENT ENGINE ROTATION? How can I better secure the crank against rotation? I don't want it to move while I'm pulling/re-installing the cover, & while I'm installing the belts. SILVER LINING.... Only up-side is that if I have to pull the cover again, I can heli-coil the loose stud hole while It's out(sigh). | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter - Tnx, I was afraid of that. I saw the conical taper in the sump cover & couldn't figure out what it was for(DUH). There wasn't an o-ring stuck in the RTV when I pulled the cover off. I think I'll pull the nut out & force some RTV up around the stud to ensure a seal. Hmm, I should be able to squeeze a small o-ring onto the stud & have the nut's washer squeeze it up into the sump housing hole. The combination should ensure no leaks Paul - That ring nut torque number is right! The spec in the 308/328 Tech Specs is: ___ITEM_________________THREAD__Kgm(Ft-lb) Securing Timing Belt Driving Gear_17x1__12(86.5) The 308 GT4 Service Manual Spec is: Timing Belts Driving Pulley_______17x1 13 The 308/328 Service manual instructs: "= Tighten the ring nuts to the prescribed torque (13 Kgm)..." | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 343 Registered: 3-2001 |
I don't think you torque number is correct! Better verify your reading newton meters, inch lbs. or ft lbs.........something not right since at the # you state you will split the nuts. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1854 Registered: 12-2000 |
Verell: "...DOES SUMP-TIMING COVER STUD GO THRU INTO OIL PUMP INTAKE PASSAGE?..." Yes it does. That's the reason for the little O-Ring they place in the chamfered recess on the sump case, where the stud passes through... But seeing as you're all gooped-up now, You'll just have to keep an eye on it and wipe up any leaks now-and-then (which I'm sure it really wouldn't). | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2001 |
DOES SUMP-TIMING COVER STUD GO THRU INTO OIL PUMP INTAKE PASSAGE? While re-installing the timing cover, I noticed that the Stud that's under the oil pump intake passageway went in exceptionally easily. The nut torqued down ok, but I'm wondering whether that's a blind hole, or if the stud protudes up into the oil intake passageway. My worry is about air leaking past the threads into the suction area, and/or oil leaking out. Wouldn't you know it, I missed the only loose hole when I checked the others while the cover was off, otherwise I'd have installed a heli-coil(sigh). Of course it would be the last stud I installed, so everything's in place, gasketed, sealed, & torqued down. If it's a blind passageway I can stop worrying. If it's not blind, I've got to decide whether to try to install a heli-coil w/o pulling the cover again, or just watch things for a while. There's a pretty good chance that enough RTV was squeezed around the stud to seal things anyway. BTW, in case anyone's interested, I used Loctite 518 as a dressing to seal the timing cover gasket, after cleaning the timing cover flange w' KleenNPrime. Used a generous smear of Permatex Super Black RTV (very oil resistant) in place of a gasket to seal the timing cover bottom to the sump. DRIVE PULLEY MARKS WON'T ALIGN W/COVER MARKS: BTW, I couldn't get the grooves in both pulleys to simultaneously line up with the marks in the cover. When the the flywheel's PM 1-4 mark is aligned, the left pulley's mark lines up exactly, but the right pulley is advanced clockwise (towards the front of the car). by about 20% of the groove's width. Discovered this when I test installed the cover after re-assembling the cover pulley/bearing/gear/seal stack, but before I installed the inner bearings. Marked the timing gears & crankshaft gear teeth, then tried shifting +/- one tooth each way. As expected, shifting by a tooth in either direction resulted in even worse miss-alignment. I even tried orienting the drive pulley marks/keyway straight down the way I found them. Didn't change things. Finally decided that either it's normal, or else the keyway must have been miss-cut on the rh shaft. In either case, I'll just deal with it using the cam pulley holes. BTW, I was surprised at the 86 ft-lb torque spec on the timing cover pully ring nuts! It's even higher than the cam pulley bolt torque! Ferrari certainly doesn't intend for there to be any possibility of them vibrating loose! | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 121 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ric,Ed- I'm not so much worried about start-up wear as I am about ensuring that the pump will have full suction with dry lobes. Also, the engine's thoroughly drained at this point as evidenced by the thoroughly soaked cardboard & cat litter on my garge floor. I want to get it filled with oil as soon as possible to minimize other startup wear. While I tend to agree w/Ric,I'm a belt-n-suspenders type. I think I'll just push some Vaseline up the intake hole into the lobes & work the pump around a few times to give them a good film. That should ensure plenty of suction while I let the starter spin the engine over w/ the plugs out & the Marinelli's unplugged until I've got oil pressure up. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2002 |
OIL PUMP There's no need to prime the pump. It will pull the oil from the pan with no problem. As far as "dry wear" goes, the brief second or two that the pump is empty won't hurt it. The non-driven gear is completely unloaded (it turns freely). It's not likely that any significant wear could occur running it dry for that short a period of time. ANY TRICK TO SEALING THE BOTTOM OF THE TIMING COVER TO THE SUMP? I use ThreeBond 1211 (Silicone RTV). I've done three covers and had no leaks. I don't use a huge excess, as this can present other problems. Put a light dressing on both surfaces and assemble before a significant skin forms (contrary to instructions). | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ed Will automotive grease work for priming the pump? and Why is it any different than leaving the car sitting for 6 months, having all the oil drip down to the pan, and the entire pump just dry as can be? Mitchell | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1369 Registered: 2-2001 |
In order to prime the oil pump and not allow it to drip out you will need to disassemble it and lightly pack the gears with petroleum jelly. I would lightly chamfer the edge of the cover on the leading edge with a file to allow it to slide over the pan gasket without gouging it. Use RTV sealer around the pan area and a hardening sealer on the timing cover gasket as RTV can cause the gasket to be forced to slide out under oil pressure. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2001 |
ADVICE NEEDED: ANY TRICK TO SEALING THE BOTTOM OF THE TIMING COVER TO THE SUMP? I plan to use Loctite 515 to form a gasket in place & as a very thin dressing on the engine gasket. (White RTV was used the last time.) However, I'm wondering how to avoid scraping a lot of it off as the cover slides into place. Best I can think of is to give both surfaces a liberal coating. Then, once the cover's in place, force as much as I can into the gap with my fingers before installing & tightening the studs. Is there a better alternative, or some assembly trick that will ensure a good seal? PRIME OIL PUMP? Before re-installing the timing cover, I plan to prime the oil pump to ensure it has a good coating of oil on the lobes. Is there a better alternative to motor oil? I don't want to get oil onto the gasket area on the bottom of the timing cover while doing this tho. Any suggestions? | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2001 |
BEARING INSTALLATION: David-Tnx for the 350 degree 0ven trick, very nice. They really do just drop in. Should work nicely for removal also. A SPUN BEARING Unfortunately, couldn't use it for one of the bearings. The failed bearing had spun in the cover. When in place, the new bearing's outer race didn't have any detectable radial play. However, I could move it axially a few thousandths of an inch with a fair amount of finger pressure. Loctite 660 is made for just this situation. I removed the baaring. Then I super-cleaned the bearing mounting area, w/lacquer thinner & Loctite KleenNprime. I gave the bearing's mounting area & the outer race thin coats of Loctite 660 & pressed the bearing into place w/o heating. The Loctite set up in an hour or so. Now the bearing isn't going to spin!! SEALS I now know why the seals were stuck into place with gasket dressing. There were some ~1/16" wide axial scratches in the mounting areas for one pulley & seal the crank gear seal. Probably made with a seal puller. I gave the seals a thin coat of Loctite 518 on the outside & also coated the inside of the mounting area to eliminate any possibility of leaks. Tapped them into place with my bearing/seal insertion tool. BTW, The crank gear seal is brown -> Vitron after all. I'm no longer upset about the price. BTW, I LIED IN EARLIER POST I used the bearing/seal insertion tool & ball pein hammer to drive out the outer races, NOT a screwdriver. (I'm not that much of a butcher.) I must have been thinking of the damaged inner race where I did use a screwdriver & also a chisel to tap off the damaged inner race. SHAFT INSTALLATION I filed grooves in the end of each shaft to indicate the keyway's position. Liberally coated the oil seal & seal area of the shaft with fresh motor oil. Used a 17mm socket & small ball pein hammer to tap the inner bearing race most of the way down onto the shaft. Supported the gears with the pieces of 2x4 I mentioned earlier. WOODRUFF KEY INSTALLATION Ric - Thanx for the MetricMMC pointer, it'll come in handy. Called all 5 local fastner companies Friday. None had metric studs or woodruff keys in stock, all could 'get anything you want in 3-5 days'. I took a good look at the woodruff keys. They were in much better shape than I thought. The chisel only damaged about the last 0.020 of the tip on each one. I miked them & the bent area was only about 0.01" wider than the rest of the key. Careful tapping and some very gentle filing brought the width down to ~0.003 wider than the rest of the key. At that point that area of the key is a press fit in the pulley notch. The rest of the ksy is very snug, but would slide w/enough pressure. Each key is only about 5% shorter than originally. I gave the slot & key a coating of anti-sieze. Then, to prevent marring the shaft or key, I used a split piece of aluminum tubing & channel-lok pliers to 'press' the key into ths slot on the shaft. Still took a lot of pressure to get the key in! To ensure the key would fully fill the pulley's groove, I didn't seat the key all the way down, just untill the pulley would barely slide over the end of the key. The rest of the key was about 0.02" higher. That way the pully rolled the key into place as it was pressed onto the shaft. PULLEY INSTALLATION Painted groove of pulley to show position of alignment mark on back of pulley. Then filed a matching mark on the front edge of the pulley for a permanant indicator. Coated inside of pulley & gear shaft w/anti-sieze. Hand pressed pulley onto shaft until it was over about 1/3 of the woodruff key. Then had to use the 17mm socket & hammer to tap it on far enough so that the ring nut will pull it the rest of the way down after I've got the cover back onto the engine. (Tnx for the tip Ric.) | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2002 |
Metric fastener outfits have metric woodruff keys. I've had to buy several over the years and they're perfect fits. See http://www.metricmcc.com/ then catalog, then non-threaded fastners. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
New member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2002 |
...Considering the "expensive consequences", and the substantial investment in time, I'd source the new, correct keys from Ferrari or T.Rutlands. Why take a chance to save a day or dollar, or two? As to installing the bearings... Install the inner bearing retainer rings. Heat,in an oven, the timing cover (350 degrees/15 minutes)....and you'll find the bearings will fall into the holes. No risk of damage...Let the cover cool naturally... As "these" cars are so expensive to repair, my experience has found that an investment in time, correct tools (factory, where needed) and a large dose of patience far outweight any downtime concerns.... FWIW. David | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1332 Registered: 2-2001 |
Most auto parts stores have an assortment case with all sizes of woodruff keys except for the one you need. You can find the closest size and with a bench grinder taylor it to your needs. No problem, I do this almost every day. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2001 |
TIMING GEARS,BEARINGS & SEALS OUT OF COVER. WOODRUFF KEYS - PITA The keys were seized in the shafts, really didn't want to come out. Had to heat the shafts up w/ a propane torch until the oil around the key started bubbling out. Then tapped them out with a small cold chisel & hammer. Once a key started moving it was all down hill. However, the chisel deformed one end of the key quite a bit. WOODRUFF KEY SOURCE(S)?? What are my chances of finding a replacement woodruff key? My local HW store has some keys, but I bet they're not metric. Or are woodruff keys standardized like bearings, seals, etc? Where's the next place to look? A fastener co? Industrial supply co? If I have to, I can clean up these keys with a little hammer tapping & fileing. However I prefer new ones, should be cheap & snug fit is important as a loose key can damage an unobtainum shaft or pulley. SEALS- ANOTHER PITA. The seals also didn't want to come out. Looks like they were glued in with old-fashioned gasket cement. Had to heat the housing around them until the rubber started smoking, then I could knock them out with a hammer & screwdriver. BEARING REMOVAL WAS EASIEST OF ALL! Bearings were really no problem. The bad bearing started losing balls when I got the cover out. Just pushed the inner race thru the seal, then clamped the timing gear in a vice & tapped the bearing off with a chisel in the race groove. The other bearing was in good shape, so I just put the butchered ring nuts on the shaft & tapped on them to drive the shaft out. Just held the housing in one hand while I did it. The inner races were snug on the shaft, but would move with a little force. Once the gears were out & the seals off, just tapped the bearings out using an old screw-driver & ball pein hammer on the edge of the outer race. Just rested the housing on a couple of ~8" long pieces of 2x4. Really nothing to it. A small hand 1/2 or 1 Ton arbor press would have been more than adequate. Gotta look for one on eBAY. If I'd had them, I'd have used a brass punch & a small brass hammer. Probably could have gotten the woodruff keys out undamaged. Gotta get some. Everything is now soaking in parts cleaner. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2001 |
TIMING COVER IS OFF, BEARINGS OUT OF ENGINE The timing cover didn't want to come off until I figured out 1) That the shafts were a slight press fit in the bearings in the engine. I attached a slide hammer to the end of each shaft & gave it a gentle tap or two. 2)that there was about a 1/16" interference between the top of a boss for a stud & the water pump.Took a couple of iterations w/a Dremel tool w/a rotozip blade to shave the interference away. In retrospect, I'd recommend either using a cut down hacksaw blade, or pulling the water pump. Once I had the cover off, it took about 2 minuites to pull the bearings out of the engine. Used the Harbor Freight blind bearing puller I mentioned earlier. Neat! two gentle taps of the slide hammer & the bearing was out!! Now it's time to remove the bearings, gears, etc. from the front cover, clean everything up & re-assemble the cover w/ the new bearings. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1838 Registered: 12-2000 |
"Hot" wrenching is more than just blowing off metal, its a fine art. Less destructive: just heat to cherry red on one spot on the nut... always comes off. Fine art: "washing" the nut off. Takes alot of practice to cut a nut off with a Oxy-acetylene torch without damaging the threads... It can be done! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2573 Registered: 2-2001 |
We usually call them hot wrenches on the right coast, so I have to agree with Ed. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1315 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think what he is referring to is what we Southerners call a "Smoke Wrench", which is also known as a Cutting Torch or Blow Torch. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 111 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter- BTW, what is a "HOT" wrench? That's a new one to me... | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2001 |
TIMING DRIVE PULLEY/GEARS 180 DEGREES OFF! Very strange, My pulleys(& hence the gears) are upside-down. ie: I aligned the crankshaft on PM1-4 mark, camshaft marks are all lined up. The timing gear shaft keyway is pointing straight down, hence the marks on the drive pulleys are 108 degress away from the marks on the timing cover. I'm assuming that at some point the cover was miss-assembled. Allegedly the same 'butcher' I mentioned earlier replaced the timing bearing seals when he butchered the ring nuts. Getting the gears upside down seems consistent w/everything else he's done wrong. (Yes, I'm bitter...) ORDERED STD CRANKSHAFT & CAM SEALS AFTER ALL. My local bearing supply co. couldn't come up with a replacement crank seal with the front dust lip. He could get me exact cam seals for $8 (nitrile - black colored), and Viton ones for $42. Viton (brown colored) has a much greater temp range than nitrile. Since I had to order the crankshaft seal from TRutlands, I gave them my cam seal business also. Still irks me to have to pay Viton price for a Nitrile seal. I've got to go home & break the timing cover loose from it's cooked-on gaskets... | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1837 Registered: 12-2000 |
Aren't impact wrenches the greatest gift to mankind? Wait, no, "HOT" wrenches are the best...  Congrats on the progress Verell | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 109 Registered: 5-2001 |
ALMOST APART!! Got back to my 308 today. TIP: Before loostning any bolts, align the PM 1-4 crankshaft mark, & make sure the the cam timing marks match up with the indicators on the fibreglass back of the cam cover. This ensures you're in the ball-park for the final settings when you go to install the new belts. Then put the car into 5th gear & tighten the park brake as hard as you can. This will keep the engine from rotating while you're breaking the crank pulley & cam bolts loose. The crankshaft pulley bolt came off very nicely with an air wrench & a 36mm socket. I wasn't too happy w/the 36mm socket's fit A 34mm socket was too small, I couldn't find a 35mm socket anywhere. I assume that's because 1-3/8(1.375") ~= 35mm ( 1.377") so I bought a 1-3/8" socket but it wouldn't quite slip on. Anyway, 36mm works. The crank pulley redily came off. had some oil in the center, but didn't look like the seal had been letting it throw any oil. Earlier in this thread I discussed the butchered drive pulley ringnuts. They ame off much easier than I expected. I used a punch in my air hammer to close up the chisel marks & get the deformations close enough to original shape for the baum tool to fit on. Had to give the tool a couple of light hammer taps to get it all the way on. Once it was on, my air wrench spun them right off. Even the nut with 2 of the 4 ring sections broken off came right off(whew!!). Glad I invested in the tool!! (Robert Garvin, thanks for twisting my arm!!) BTW, the nuts dinged the outside of the tool where it was tapped onto them. I don't think the tool was heat treated to harden it. It's certainly softer than my Craftsman sockets. For $75 I expected hardened vanadium tool steel(sigh). It did the job tho. (DUH) LEAVE THE TENSIONERS TIGHTENED DOWN UNTIL YOU'VE BROKEN THE CAM PULLEY BOLTS LOOSE!!! Otherwise the pulley will slip teeth on the belt. Luckily I remembered & re-tightened the tensioners before anything happened this time. Again, the air wrench easily broke the pulley bolts loose. The o-rings were still nice & soft, but had acquired the a permanant triangular cross-section characteristic of this application. Well, lunch break is over, back to pull the belts & timing cover. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mitchell, Thanks for the crank seal info, & yes, I'm trying to find an equivalent crank seal for less than the $75 I've been quoted. It just seemed exhorbitant when seals are usually in the $4-$10 range. I wouldn't have quibbled if it had been $15 or $20, but $75 is O(10x) which I consider excessive. Ric, Thanks for SEALS101. I knew about the rotation directionality, but hadn't realized the complexity of the lip design varients. Given Mitchell's data, I'm going to see what my local bearing supply co. comes up with. BACK TO MY 308 (Mostly NFC): I expect to resume work on my 308 tomorrow, should have the timing cover off by bedtime. My son & I should finish up the 60K service(timing belts idler & tensioner pulleys, tensioner, plugs, misc. belts.)on his Stealth tonite. Since the first of the year we've swapped out a failed auto trans, & done the 60K service. I'm really proud of him, he's never been mechanically handy. He's very meticulous & does everything exactly by the book. Knows when to ask questions, etc. (Edward Gault, thanx for the tips, they saved us a lot of work.) BTW, If you think clearances around a 308 are tight, you should take a look at a Stealth. I didn't know when I was well off!! My impact wrench wouldn't break the the crankshaft pulley nut loose! Someone must have spun it on with a BIG air wrench at full pressure. Took a 2' extension on a breaker bar and a full force kick to get it off! | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2002 |
While you could just buy a seal just based on dimensions, there are more factors than that: Direction of operation, lip type (shape of the lip), material type, backing style (shape of the metal shell), whether or not it has a garter (tension) sping, whether or not the O.D. is rubberized or metal, etc. Check out this site just to get an idea how many variations I'm talking about: http://www.jy-oilseal.com/shape.html Hence the nasty part # like B1BAVISLRDX7. Some seals are designed to work clockwise, some counterclockwise, and yet others are bidirectional. For instance, the 308 front crank seal would be clockwise, but the 4 front camshaft seals would be counterclockwise. IMHO, the best thing to do when buying bearings, oil seals, o-rings, etc. is to TAKE THE OLD SEAL to the counter and let them determine it's type. When asked, they often can suggest superior products or styles. Also, if you ask, 4 times out of 5, they can give you an application guide for the product(s). I used to have an oil seal application guide around somewhere, but a gnome must have eaten it... | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 144 Registered: 11-2001 |
OK Verell Crank Shaft front seal: CORTECO I-2 manufacturer Part number B1BAVISLRDX7 44-60-10 Measurement on my seal: OD: 2.370 Inch ID: 1.690 Thickness: 0.4"" Since I am a nice guy, it is repeated in mm OD 60.198 mm ID 42.920 mm Thick: 10 mm So, it looks like the actual 44-60-10 is dimension in mm. Take that to the supplier. My seal has a second rubber ring fitting inside the groove of the back of the seal. I do not know why that is there. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2001 |
Sorry Verell I have not gotten to it. Will try to this afternoon. Are you trying to get a cheaper source for seal? Or, are you trying to make sure that what you have is correct? I bought mine from GT Car Parts as a kit and it seems to be OK. no complaints here. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 105 Registered: 5-2001 |
CRANK OIL SEAL NUMBERS?? Could someone please look at the crankshaft oil seal you got for your timing cover & post the numbers from it? Usually, they'll look something like: nn - nn - nn or nn x nn x nn and are the seal's OD, ID, & thickness. Sometimes there's a /n after the last number. Or, like the cam seals, it may just have a mfg. name and part number. The seal's shell construction. ie: all rubber (like cam seals), or a metal shell (like the timing bearing seals). And the number of sealing lips it has (probably 1 or 2?). | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2001 |
Verell That is correct. On the way out, the block of wood is braced against the area in between the 2 gears on the case cover. It was plenty strong to handle the stress. On the way in, the 19mm long socket is placed directly over the inner race with is more than strong enough to take the stress. My remaining question is: when pressing in the gears, do I press in until it seats against the bearing and stops? Or is there a spec? | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mitchell- So you supported the gear side by the gasket area ie: the surface that mates to the block. I was worried as to whether or not the timing case cover was strong enough. ie: Is there a need to support the inside of it immediately around the gears. However, the clearance between the gears & the mounting flange is so slim I couldn't see how to support it. See Ric's photo: http://www.rainbolt.com/ferrari/qvs/P0000084.jpg | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2001 |
For me: 1. A big bench vise 2. Two pieces of 1x2 hard wood cut to 6 inch to 10 inch long 3. One small 2x3 inch thin piece of hard wood Use number 3 to protect the end of the shaft from being damaged by the vise. This is eliminated if you have teflon / plastic vise grip. Use number 2 to block / support front cover while vise is pressing the gear out. Use number 1, well for obvious reasons. On the way back in, use number 3 for same reasons. Use long 19 mm socket to support inner race while shaft is being pressed in. You may need 2 different lengths. You'll figure it out. Works for me | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2001 |
HOW SUPPORT TIMING COVER WHILE PRESSING SHAFTS OUT OF OUTER BEARINGS? From the manuals & the posts at the bottom of this thread, I know that the timing shafts are pressed into the outer bearings. My question is how have people supported the timing cover while pressing the shafts out(details please)? BTW, The press fit is probably why the bearings have /C4 internal clearance: to allow for inner race expansion due to the shaft. A LIFT MAKES A DANDY PRESS... ---------------------------- BTW, the underside of a lift arm holding a 308 makes a fine press once you've supported whatever you're pressing above the garage floor. With practice you can control lift height to ~1/4". Just in case, make certain that there's plenty of room below the part being pressed out, & between whatever it's being pressed out of & the lift arm's bottom. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ed, re: Stealth (NFC) I'm looking fwd to your email. We're beginning disassmebly now. re: Longer Studs You'll probably want assymetric studs as you don't want to try to screw them further into the timing cover than the original ones were. Otherwise you risk bottoming out or running into an un-threaded section of the hole. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 683 Registered: 1-2001 |
Peter -- I think the lack of helicoils on your car is another early vs late issue. I even wound up adding a few more helicoils in various places (e.g., the large fine-pitch mounting holes for the rear bank air pump) as the reusabilty of the threads in the aluminum was quite poor. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1812 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ric, believe me I FOUND NO HELI-COILS ON MY ENGINE. I HAVE THE P.C. AND DOUBLE-CHECKED THE AREAS WHEN I WAS TEARING IT APART (#'S 32 & 74 in your P.C. page). I DON'T HAVE 'EM. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1144 Registered: 2-2001 |
There are marks on the Stealth cams and marking the belt is not necessary. There are some bolt holes in the cylinder heads behind the cam pulleys that you can insert some bolts in with a spacer and lock the pulleys using the spokes in them. The tensioner is a little tricky also. I will e-Mail you the instructions personally without boring everyone with the details. Yes that is one of my cam belt systems for sale. It is the last one {probably}. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2001 |
Verell I am leaning that way too. But, I will probably put in longer studs to make the pull out job that much easier. It is 8 mm x 1.25 mm, isn't it? I already took the 6 out, it is just a matter of getting longer ones | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 94 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mitchell, I don't know whether I'll go w/bolts or studs. I've been thinking about my remark about probably only having to do this once or twice again. I"m actually starting to lean back towards just putting in new studs for a couple of reasons: 1) I believe that when putting things back together, re-installing studs may actually be easier than going with bolts. (Not sure of this for the oil pickup tube flange tho.) 2)Also, studs are probably less likely to strip threads because they come in & out with no tension load. 3)Next time I'll have a stud puller which will eliminate the double-nuting hassel. JBK, re: Stud pullers - The ones I've got on order from OnTool are the 3-cam type also. Sure wish I had them right now. Scanning the web, there seem to be quite a few companies selling them, & my guess is that only 2-3 companies are making them for themselves & everybody else. Ed, Tnx for the tip on the Stealth cams. The info I have has you lining up the cam marks, then marking the old belt, transferring the marks to the new belt & lining the new belt up with the corresponding marks on the cams. Any thoughts on how I can jury-rig a cam holding device? Maybe something as simple as some c-clamps & a board? Or a board with C-shaped ends cut to exactly fit between the two pulleys? Any other Stealth tips/idiosyncracie we should worry about? BTW, Are you selling one of your timing belt/pulley kits on eBAY, or is it one of your customers? | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2001 |
Verell Do you plan on installing bolts instead of studs afterward? Mitchell | ||
| Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
Junior Member Username: Jbk Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2001 |
I bought a set of the Facom stud pullers from Griots. Pricey, but they are the same size as a deep socket and work great. 3 cams in them that only put slight line depressions in the threads. Only complaint is that they hold so tightly, you can break off a stud if it's corroded in. Found out the hard way when I replaced my cam journal studs. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1117 Registered: 2-2001 |
When doing the Stealth timing belt be warned that the cams will turn as soon as you remove the belt. You definately need some type of cam holding device when you remove the belt. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Junior Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2001 |
Verell, You might want to try a couple of drops of Loctite stud and bearing adhesive on the nuts before you lock them up. Let it sit for an hour or two. It just might give the nuts a little more holding power. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nice post Ric, Hard to argue w/the parts book! PROGRESS REPORT: Double-nuting the sump-timing cover studs (#43 in Ric's post below) is a pokey PITA. Spent an ~1.5hrs on the car tonite & only got 4 of the 6 studs out. Turns out there really is space to get stud pullers on these studs. Sure wish I'd paid the extra $$ & had the stud pullers shipped next day air. They'd have been here tomorrow(sigh). DNSR101: BASIC DOUBLE-NUTING STUD REMOVAL (For the newbie & those like me who'd forgotten the basics.) 1)Get both the nuts & the stud threds really clean & dry. (I used brake cleaner.) Just a little bit of oil on the threads & the nut pair will turn on the stud instead of breaking the stud loose. It didn't help that just after cleaning the stud, oil would wick down out of the sump cover onto it. 2)Switch to fresh pair of nuts after using a pair to pull a 2nd stud. The threads in the nuts must be getting deformed to the point that they just don't grip the stud hard enough. 3) It takes guts to turn the outer nut that last 1/12th turn needed to both get the needed pressure on the stud, & also permit the wrench holding the top nut in place to slip off of the pair. (Of course if you strip the threads or break something you had too much guts. It's a 'feel' thing...) 4) Use box ends on both nuts. You have to apply very substantial force to jam the nuts together. An open end wrench will round off the nut before you've got the nuts adequately jammed together. I picked up a $5 set of metric combo wrenches at the local parts store's bargain bin. Ground the 13mm wrench's box end down so that it was the same thickness as the nuts. The 10mm wrench from the set was what I ground down to squeeze between the oil pickup tube & the rightmost nut. Tomorrow I plan to pull the last pair of studs out, rotate the engine until the crank & cam marks are all aligned, temporarily re-attach the sump cover & right rear wheel. Then push the 308 into the driveway for a few days so I can take care of a crisis w/my son's car. NFC: I've got to free up the lift so we can do a 15K mile overdue 60K service (includes timing belt) on my son's Dodge Stealth this weekend. He's the non-tinkerer in the family. I don't think he really believes his engine is likely to self-destruct at any minuite. Talk about living dangerously!! BTW:The blind bearing puller set arrived from Harbor Freight. It's not craftsman/snap-on machining quality. Just black steel & a few machining marks instead of polished chrome. However, It's rugged, & the basic design looks sound, should nicely remove the inner timing shaft bearings. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2002 |
"Ric, I found no Heli-coils on my engine in the situations you described (pan drain plugs, timing cover bolts, etc...). " Timing cover bolts? If you're referring to the cam belt cover bolts, yes, they're heli-coiled (see #32 below) and the water pump bolts are also (see #31 below)...  And the oil pan plugs are heli-coiled (see #74 below)...  They're not obvious, but they're there (or they're supposed to be!). | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2001 |
I am NOT suggesting replacing the studs attaching the timing cover to the engine with bolts. I see no advantage to doing so. Let's focus the BOLTS vs STUDS discussion only on the context of: 1)Attaching the sump to the timing cover's bottom. 2)Attaching the oil pickup tube flange to the engine. In this application the load on the timing cover threads is independant of whether studs or bolts attach the sump cover to it. The exception is difference is that during final torqueing down the stud wouldn't be rotating in the timing cover threads while under tension. As long as the timing cover is being removed/replaced w/o pulling the engine, the wear on the timing cover threads should also be the same because the studs are also being removed. Again, the difference is that in the case of the studs, the stud removal is being done after the tension force has been removed from the threads. Wear due to frequent removals/insertions better not an issue. At lease, I certainly don't expect to have to replace the timing bearings more than two more times in my or the car's lifetime unless the genengineering guys come up with a longevity/immortality treatment. Am I overlooking something? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2356 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bill that's definitely why they use studs on everything. If they used bolts 3/4 of them would be stripped after the first engine pull. The transfer case axial loads sound disconcerting, but from what I understand you would blow the internals of the trans to hell long before the case cover would even come close to coming off. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Junior Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2001 |
I suspect the real reason Ferrari uses studs is to minimize wear and tear on the block threads. Aluminum is soft. You don't want cross-thread a tapped hole in an expensive block and many un-installs and installs, will eventually cause unacceptable wear. It�s less expensive to replace nuts when they wear out. But how often are you really going to perform this task? While it is true that a body, clamped by inappropriately torqued bolts and subject to shear loads, may move, I don't see this as a significant danger in the case of the thermostat housing. Any shear loads resulting from the compliant hose and rocking of the engine are likely to be small. The bigger concern is that the heads of the socket head screws are small, resulting in a lot force over the small contact area. Washers of adequate hardness, thickness, and diameter will alleviate this concern. In the case of the bearing cover, the observation that helical gears will produce significant, axial loads, is true. This force will be reacted primarily by the cover, face bolts, in tension. These tension bolts extend around most of the perimeter of the cover. Bolts on the bottom of the cover, are fairly distant from application of the axial gear load and are likely to share very little of this axial gear load. All holes in the cover are clearance holes, and as such, provide only gross alignment. If finer alignment were necessary, Ferrari would likely have provided a couple of dowel pins, in addition to the bolts. Having said this, it might be prudent to select bolts that have some untapped portion of the shank, where they mate with the clearance holes. I think replacing the studs in this area with bolts, is acceptable, if you are careful, and you don�t professionally race the car. Professional racers tend to tear down their gear frequently, so for them, studs are probably the way to go, to minimize thread wear. In extreme cases, like rod bolts, it�s a good idea to replace them for fatigue reasons. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1800 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ric, I found no Heli-coils on my engine in the situations you described (pan drain plugs, timing cover bolts, etc...). | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2002 |
"Does the helicoil/TIME-SERT comment apply to my thought about using cap screws to replace the studs attaching the sump to the timing cover?" Absolutely. The compression load *is* the problem... the bolts can literally tear right out of the casting. The front timing cover does have dynamic loads, BTW, as the timing gears are helically cut, thereby producing axial loads as they are turned. :-) | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ric, Does the helicoil/TIME-SERT comment apply to my thought about using cap screws to replace the studs attaching the sump to the timing cover? Can't see why it'd be a problem, they should be under a simple static compression load. Also, any thoughts about replacing the oil pickup flange studs with bolts and spring lock washers? I Had just about decided against cap screws here because I thought I'd I'd have to use a combination of a flex extension & allen socket & it'd just be too long to fit. The flex extension alone is longer than the flex socket!! Then I thought of cutting about 1/4" off of an allen wrench & using it in a flex socket. Should work. SNAP-ON vs CRAFTSMAN BTW, my Snap-On 12 point shallow flex socket arrived yesterday. It's definitely shorter and thinner walled than the Craftsman socket I used the nite before. PRO SNAP-ON: Smaller size, 12points Would have been easier to use to get the nuts off in the 1st place. CON:Too shallow to grab both nuts when removing the studs. $30.50 PRO CRAFTSMAN: Extra length came in handy as it grabbed bothnuts when double-nutting the studs out. Did the job for $7.49, Can buy a 2nd one & grind the length & side walls down to get the extra clearance & still be less than 1/2 the Snap-On $$. BTW, $44.99 gets you a set of the 8 common sizes. CON: 6point, ~1/8" longer, slightly thicker walls in a tight space. Guess I'm going to return the snap-on socket & get my $$ back. Feel bad about doing it as Snap-On was very courteous & responsive. But, as the old down-easter would say, Thirty Dollaz is Thirty Dollaz... That'll pay for my bearings & seals. BTW, do you know the dimensions of the crankshaft seal? Somehow I can't see why it's $70+.. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2002 |
Peter, I only have one minor point on the installation of cap head screws on your thermostat housing. Just an FYI to consider. Since the housing is under some load (from the pull of the hose, especially as the engine flexes on the mounts), the "female" side of the casting should have helicoils installed. The aluminum castings are not designed to have a threaded fastener directly installed. If you look, any place Ferrari uses a bolt in place of a stud in a casting, they do this. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2451 Registered: 2-2001 |
Peter, It shows how much time and effort you put into your engine rebuild. Beautiful job. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1798 Registered: 12-2000 |
Verell, when one of the studs broke on my thermostat housing, I decided to replace the studs with the first things that came to hand... socket cap-screws. They look good. Likely that their stronger too (although unnecessary in a small size like this). This should work well in your application.  | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2001 |
Progress report: (BTW, if I'm boring everyone w/this much blow-by-blow detail, just let me know & I'll just touch on the high-lites.) Called TRutlands today & ordered gaskets,seals & some misc. stuff. All reasonably priced except for the crankshaft seal which was $75 or so!! Ring Nuts were $13 so I ordered a couple since I've already sprung for the #$@# expensive Baum Tool. Only had about 30 min tonite to do real work on the car. Removed the nuts from the studs attaching the bottom of the timing cover to the sump. 1/4"drive 13mm deep socket-flex-10" extension let me get at everything. (I cheated & used my 1/4" air ratchet to speed things up.) Also pulled most of the front cover nuts off. Left a couple on each side until I get the crank & cams all lined up & marked. STUD PULLERS: I spent some time today researching stud removers/extractors/pullers on the web. Wanted one that don't damage the threads. Found lots of people selling what appears to be the same set for anywhere from $99 to $19.95! Best price was from a 'JCWhitneypartner': http://www.jcwhitney.com/feature_ontool.html?CATID=9999999&FID=3564&BQ= Metric Stud Remover Set $19.95 (+$9.95 shipping-sigh) (SKU# AST-SP2) 1/2" drive metric stud remover set includes sizes: 6mm,8mm, 10mm and 12mm. Ideal for removing broken studsand screws. Comes in plastic blow molded case. BTW: Harbor Freght has the fraction version of the set for $12.95: ITEM 5237-1VGA DOUBLE NUT THE STUDS(SIGH): Unfortunately, the removers look like they're about the size of a spark plug socket, so I can't fit one between the frame & top of the sump to remove the studs I mentioned above. Guess I'll double-nut them too. USE CAP SCREWS? I'm tempted to replace these studs with socket head cap screws. Any thoughts pro/con? BTW, remember to spread something soft like an old mattress pad or a quilt on the garage floor. If you remember to do this, then dropped nuts won't magicly disappear under something large & heavy 15 feet away from where you're working(ask me how I know). | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2001 |
THANX RIC & ROBERT!!! BTW, I forgot to say thanx to Ric Rainbolt & Robert Garven for their advice on pulling the oil pickup tube. The telephone consults on pulling the pick up tube & pulling the bearings were a big help!! | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2001 |
OIL PICKUP TUBE & MOUNTING STUDS ARE OUT!! ------------------------------------------ It took me 50 minuites to pull the oil pickup tube. ~10 min. of which was grinding down a wrench. Double-nutting the 3 studs off took another hour. Still & all, a 2 hours is a lot less time than I was expecting!!!! The two rightmost of the oil pickup tube mounting flange's nuts (ie: the ones toward the pulleys), turned out to be the easiest! For the nut on the front right side, I just used a Craftsman 10mm 6-point Flex socket with 26" (1- 10" & 2-8") of straignt extenders. The Craftsman socket barely fit around the nut, but barely is good enuf! (BTW, a 12-point socket would have made it even easier to orient the socket onto the nut.) The nut on the flange's right rear side had me worried. However, it too went easily once I had the right combination: 10mm Flex socket - 8" Extender - 1/4" flex extension - 10" extender. Most frustrating was the left most nut. It actually looks like it's going to be the easiest. There's very little clearance between it & the tube, & the tube slightly overhangs the nut.I ground off about 1/2 of the side of the box end of a short 10mm combo wrench so it would fit on the leftmost nut holding the oil passageway sealing flange. Once I got the wrench over the nut, it broke loose easily & I just spun it off w/my fingers. In retrospect, I guess I could have ground down the side of the 10mm flex socket. Probably would have been even easier to use. BEARINGS & SEALS ARE ON ORDER. A local NSK distributor is having exact replacement bearings shipped to me. $4 for the inner bearing & $8 ea. for the outer bearing. I took a chance & ordered seals the same dia as the bearing. They're cheap enough too. $3 or so each. The salesman researched the Hybrid (ceramic ball) bearings for me. Turns out they're not available as simple ball bearings, just as offset race bearings for combination loads. He ended up talking to the chief engineer of NTN America! The engineer claimed that SKF's std bearing line was as good as NTN's TMB series, so I just went with stock replacement bearings. I'd tried to use my Craftsman flex socket this AM, & convinced myself it wouldn't fit. Called Ric Rainbolt who strongly recommended Snap-On's shallow flex socket. So I ordered one from Snap-On for $30. Next spoke w/Roberg Garvin who said he'd used the same Craftsman socket I had. Worked wunnerful tonite. Guess the coffee hadn't soaked in this AM. Anyone want to buy a 'never out of the box' official Snap-On 10mm 12-point shallow flex 1/4" drive socket??? I'll have one Wednesday... I also decided to invest $50 in Harbor Freight's 'Blind Bearing Puller Set': http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38925 It grips the inside of the inner race & has a slide hammer to pop the bearing out. I need one for a couple of other projects I've got planned. I plan to heat up the inner bearing housing with a propane torch & then use the slide hammer while the housing's good & hot. re: Steve's post preceding this one. I guess that ring-nuts are more common than my experience led me to believe. I guess I'll locate two new ones now that I've invested in the damn expensive Baum tool. I'm gonna catch hell from my wife when the VISA statement arrives at the end of the month. Good thing I have about $500 I was planning to spend on parts to rebuild the suspension. Ah, well... | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 668 Registered: 1-2001 |
Verell -- Re: REPLACING RING NUTS W/REGULAR NYLOCK NUTS?? The problem is that most "hex nuts" with the appropriate ID thread will have a much larger OD hex shape and greater thickness than the stock ring nut. If you could find a very thin hex nut that would fit (and had the same minimum cross-section as the ring nut) I don't see why it wouldn't work OK, but for these type of applications (rotating shafts with large internal thread sizes but small loads) the ring nuts are more the industry standard. For example: http://www.whittet-higgins.com/ | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2001 |
Treue, I've had a ring nut tool on order for several days. My problem is that the last @#$@#% idiot to take the ring nuts off butchered them with chisel & punch. The rear bank drive nut is so butchered that the tool isn't going to work fer shure. I hope I'll be able to use it on the front bank drive nut. REPLACING RING NUTS W/REGULAR NYLOCK NUTS?? Has anyone investigated replacing the cam drive nuts with nylon lock nuts? What if anything is special about the ring nuts? | ||
| thomas n. treue (Treue)
New member Username: Treue Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2002 |
Baum Tools makes a socket for the notch nuts on the 308/328. Better $80 for the right tool than all the aggravation and destroying the $35 notch nuts with the chisel/punch method. You can make your own socket from a regular socket and 4 woodruff keys; tedious but still much better than the chisel/punch method. Also, see my article in "308 Tensioner Bearing" section. It shows how to change the cam belt drive pulley outboard bearing and seal without removing the engine. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2001 |
Woke up this AM with a more positive attitude & went to work on the 308. Started by removing all the bolts on the rear cam belt cover that are accessable thru the wheel well. Both SKF & NTN claim that these bearings offer extended life in 'contaminated environments such as automotive transmissions'. While the sump should be cleaner than a tranny, the application should be similar. At least I'm getting an education in bearings. Now If I can just figure out how to get those busted up ring nuts off... Went to pull the air box as it blocks access to the bolts holding the rear plate to the rear cam belt cover. Didn't want to come off. Was afraid I'd break the top off of the K-Jet fuel distributor. Decided I'd drain the engine oil while figuring what to do. Once the oil was draining, I soaked the seam where the airbox mounts on the K-Jet with PB Blaster & went to lunch to let things drain & penetrate. Came back from lunch & the air box cover came off with a couple of good firm taps. Penetrating fluidz is wunnerful... Pulled the sump cover & left it hanging by a couple of nuts so it'd drain. Meanwhile cleaned up the cam belt covers & set them out to dry. When I came back I was amazed to see that about another pint of oil had drained out of the sump! The sump cover had pretty well stopped dripping, so I pulled it off & left the sump area draining while I cleaned the sump cover & left it to dry too. The sump still had a heavy film of oil that didn't seem to be going anywhere soon, so I wiped as much off as I could & sprayed the sump area with parts cleaner to get the rest of the oil out. NOW I CAN SEE THE INFAMOUS OIL PICKUP TUBE NUTS & STUDS. Actually, it doesn't look too bad at all. I believe I can get all the nuts off with a flex socket & about 18" of 1/4" extensions!! Having the car up on a nice high lift looks like it's going to make this go much easier than I feared. Sure wouldn't want to be trying to do this lying on a creeper with the car up on jackstands tho. Tomorrow I'm taking the bearing part #s to a local SKF bearing supplier. I'm hoping he can get me replacement parts from their 'Hybrid Bearings' line. The balls are Silicon Nitride ceramic. SKF claims significantly improved bearing life (5x-7x or more than conventional steel ball bearings in the same application. http://www.skfusa.com/home3.html Click on 'ball bearings' and then 'hybrid bearings'. Also I'm going to look into NTN's TMB line of extended life bearings that are specially heat treated: http://www.ntnamerica.com/Engineering/PDFs/Other/tmbspec.pdf | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 75 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanx Robert, The full bearing part #s should make cross-referencing easy. I'll probably call a local bearing supply house & see if they can't come up with bearings & seals. If not, I'll price shop FoNE & TRutlands. re:"I would timesert the holes" Hmm, I seldom strip threads, but if the studs are stuck, & bring the threads out with them, then I'll have to do heli-coils or time-serts. Haven't used time-serts b4, but they look like they're easier to work with than heli-coils. Unfortunately, I've got bigger problems to worry about: !#$@#$% BUTCHER OF A WRENCH JOCKEY ---------------------------------- I took a good look at my drive pulley ring-nuts to see what would be involved in grinding a tool out of a std. socket. I almost wish I hadn't!!! Making a tool is now the least of my worries. The previous @#$#@ wrench-jockey (I won't give him the title mechanic) who replaced the seals TOOK THE NUTS OFF WITH COLD CHISEL, & put them on with SOME KIND OF A PUNCH. One nut has deep chisel cuts on the counter-clockwise side of 3 of the 4 notches,& two notches have deep punch marks on the opposite sides! One possibility may be to use a punch & re-shape the cuts & punch marks so that a ring-nut tool can get a grip on the nut. If that doesn't work, I may be able to fill in the cuts with my MIG welder & re-grind the openings with a dremel tool(sigh). At least the pulley looks like it's metal, not plastic, so I don't have to worry too much about heat around it. AND THIS I'S THE BETTER OF THE TWO NUTS! The other nut has deep chisel marks also, but 1/2 of THE RING IS BROKEN OFF! Best guess from the marks is that he tightened it with a cold chisel too, & the two cuts met!! I'm not sure how I'm going to get this 2nd nut off. Alternatives that come to mind are: - Find a steel key that I can fit into the one surviving groove, & use a punch to drift the nut off(if I can). - Grind the inside of a socket to fit the nut the way it is. - MIG weld a socket onto the nut. - Grind the nut into enough of a hex so that a std socket will fit. - Put one of those magic 'fits anything' alligator sockets to the test. Actually, the only one I'v seen isn't large enough, sigh. Maybe I can make a larger one from a regular socket & a bunch of pieces of coat-hanger. - Cut the nuts off. If they're soft enough for a chisel to mark them up, then maybe I can drill a hole alongside the threads & grind the remaining metal away w/a dremel tool & diamond point(s). Getting the timing cover off is beginning to look very easy compared to getting these nuts off! NO WONDER THE BEARING FAILED!! Hammering the nuts on/off strikes me as a great way to destroy a bearing or two!! To top it off, I just discovered I'm out of Scotch so I can't even get drunk & hope things will look better tomorrow AM. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
New member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2002 |
Verril et al, I did it in the car, just finished last week. All you need to remove the oil pick up tube are several wrenches some patience and a 10mm swivel socket. I would timesert the holes before I put the cover back on if I did it again. I stayed awake all night after I replaced the timing cover as I had many small threads strip. The bearings were cheap from FOA. The inner one was about $6. I actually have a harder time removing ALL the studs on my early gt4 and the AC. If I had not been working out lately I'm not sure I could have put the compressor back on.... Inner SKF 6201-J outer SKF 6203-2RS1/C4HT51 | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanx Ric, Your post plus more info from the NSK & NTN web Sites: http://www.us.nsk.com/ballbear.htm http://www.ntnamerica.com/Knowledge/Bearing_Knowledge_Main.htm has given me a 'crash course' on bearing construction. The NTN TMB series is especially interesting as it offers significantly extended life over standard bearings, even in somewhat contaminated conditions(Auto trans. apps are mentioned.) See: http://www.ntnamerica.com/Knowledge/Intro_Ball_Bearings/Max_Capacity_SRDG.htm#TMB SRDG Ball Bearings Now, what I need are some part #s for bearings & seals & I can figure out what to buy. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
New member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2002 |
This is from SKF's site... it may confuse more than it clarifies. All SKF standard bearings have a characteristic basic designation, which generally consists of 3, 4 or 5 figures, or a combination of letters and figures. The design of the system used for almost all standard ball and roller bearing types is shown schematically in (fig 7). The figures and combinations of letters and figures have the following meaning: � the first figure or the first letter or combination of letters identifies the type of bearing; the actual bearing type can be seen from the presentation (fig 7) and is listed under the heading "Identification of bearing type"; � the following two figures identify the ISO Dimension Series; the first figure indicates the width (B or T) or height (H or T) series and the second the Diameter Series (D); � the last two figures of the basic designation give the size of the bearing; when multiplied by 5, the bore diameter in millimetres is obtained. In a few cases the figure for the bearing type and/or the first figure of the Dimension Series identification is omitted. These figures are given in brackets in (fig 7). For bearings which have a bore diameter smaller than 10 mm and equal to or greater than 500 mm, the bore diameter is generally given in millimetres direct, the size identification being separated from the rest of the bearing designation by an oblique stroke, e.g. 618/8 (d = 8 mm) or 511/530 (d = 530 mm). This is also true of standard bearings to ISO 15 which have bore diameters of 22, 28 and 32 mm, e.g. 322/28 (d = 28 mm). Bearings with bore diameters of 10, 12, 15 and 17 mm have the following size identifications: 00 = 10 mm 01 = 12 mm 02 = 15 mm 03 = 17 mm For some deep groove, self-aligning and angular contact ball bearings having a bore diameter smaller than 10 mm, the bore diameter is also given in millimetres (uncoded) but is not separated from the basic designation by an oblique stroke, e.g. 629 or 129 (d = 9 mm). Bore diameters which deviate from the standard bore diameter of a bearing have always been given uncoded in millimetres with up to three decimal places. This bore diameter identification is part of the basic designation and is separated from the basic designation proper by an oblique stroke, e.g. 6202/15.875 (d = 15,875 mm). However, such bearings will in future be identified by a Drawing No. Series designations Each standard bearing belongs to a given bearing series which is identified by the basic designation without the size identification. Series designations often include a suffix A, B, C, D or E or a combination of these letters e.g. CA. These are used to identify differences in internal design, e.g. contact angle. The most common series designations are shown in (fig 7) above the bearing drawings. The figures in brackets are not included in either the basic designation or the series designation.  | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think these may be the Cam Drive Bearing Part #s: Crankshaft seal#: ??? Cam drive Seal #: ??? Outer Bearing: # 201 Inner Bearing: # 6203 I'm guessing that these are industry std. bearing types from the context. Can someone confirm that an early ('82) Euro QV uses the same bearings as a '79 vintage twin-cam 308 that was being discussed where I found these #s? Anyone know the seal #s? I've been searching the internet, & at least one site (http://www.arrowweb.com/bake/6200.htm ) has a table that I read to imply that 201 & 203 are base numbers. Some mfgs seem to prefix a 1 or a 6 (eg: 6203). Am I readin this correctly? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2001 |
Verell, the one major problem I see with doing the cover with the engine in the car is the oil pump pickup tube. I pulled my engine (2 valve carb) for some changes I wanted to make internally and tried to see how difficult the cover would be to remove if it were in the car still. What I found was you have to remove the oil temp sensor at the front, the dipstick tube and the threaded nut in the aluminum case which extends 6 inches into the pan. Then remove the pan. Still, I cant see how you remove the oil pickup tube from the oil pump inlet without bending something. The gearbox casting is directly under this flange that you must unbolt. I would never do this in the car. It didnt take me long with hand tools and a cherry picker to remove the whole thing. Im glad I did because you can detail it and the engine bay easily, not to mention change some other things while they are easy to reach. I also removed the gear selector shaft from the transmission. 5 min job with the pan off. The external seal was leaking engine oil. The one that seperates the gearbox oil from the engine oil was as hard as plastic, so were the fluids mixing? Who knows but I know they wont now. When I removed my cover after I split the block from the case, then removed the pickup tube, I still had trouble pulling the cover. The inner bearings were stuck in the block and required careful prying in a straight line. Could I do that with the pickup still attached? Tough to say. Sometimes it is easier to do what seems to be the long or hard way to do something like yanking the whole thing but find it is more of a headache to cut corners. It usually takes longer to cut corners, especially if you have to do it twice. I would like some input on how it has been done in the car regarding the pickup tube. Paul. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2001 |
I removed the engine for a major overhaul so it was a lot of work, but was necessary. I am replacing the 6 short studs on the front cover so that in the future I can remove the cover with the engine still in the car. It won't be fun, but doable. I made a special socket from a oversize 1 3/8 inch socket, and a bench grinder. You will also need a smaller one for the timing belt pulley 4-point nuts. Replacement nuts are $37 each. Ouch. I had to cut mine off with dremmel tool. I wanted to pull my engine because I had to do major clean up of the frame, and replace the rear firewall (Can't do that with the engine still inside). If all I had to do was the bearings, I would sweat through the removal of the case with the engine still in the car. Replace the studs with the bolts for future easy removal. Goodluck and check the board. We all help each other here. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2214 Registered: 2-2001 |
Nearly everything can be done on the engine with it in the car. If you can avoid pulling it, even if some of the labor is a pain with it in, it is worth it to leave in. There is A LOT of work taking out the engine, even if you have a complete shop, tools, etc and plenty of time. If I didnt have to separate the block to seal the oil leak, no way would I have pulled it. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2001 |
TO PULL OR NOT TO PULL THE ENGINE? I'm trying to decide whether or not to pull my Euro 308 QV's engine, or just pull the timing cover with the car on my lift. THE PROBLEM: One of my timing belt drive bearings has just failed. I'm going to make a clean sweep & replace all 4 bearings while I'm at it. Also, I have a niggling oil leak from the front cam cover that I'll take care of while I've got the car off of the road & the cam covers off. MY RESOURCES & EXPERIENCE: I have a very well equipped shop (Lift, air tools,Engine Hoist,Engine Stand, Trans. Jack...) I've lots of experience with general US, Jag XK150,& RX-7 vehicles. MY HOMEWORK: I've read the FerrariChat,FerrariList posts & Ric Rainbolt's photos on this subject, and also the 308 FAQ on removing the engine which is one heck of a lot of work fer shure! Yelcab1,RobertGarven,RicRain,Ed,et al, Just how much of a PITA was pulling the timing cover w/o pulling the engine? It looks fairly straight forward until it comes to removing the 3 nuts/studs retaining the oil pickup. Apparently the access awkwardness & tight clearances make their removal a major PITA. Is this correct? What other surprises are there? WHAT PARTS ARE NEEDED/WHAT ARE THEIR INDUSTRY STD PART #S? Here's what It looks like I'll need: 1 Timing Cover Gasket 1 Sump Cover Gasket 1 Oil Pickup Tube Gasket 2 Bearing Seals 2 Front Bearings 2 Rear Bearings ? Anything else ? UNIQUE TOOLS: 1-Special socket for timing pulley 'star' nuts (Anyone willing to rent/sell one? If not, what's the nut size so I can decide whether to order one from Baum Tools, or just cut down an impact socket to make one.) | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks guys. With the encouragement from a bench vise, and appropriate pieces of wood to protect the surfaces, the shafts came out. The bearings were knocked out easily after that. I am going to replace all the bearings, as well as replacing the studs with bolts so that future removal with engine inside the car will be much easier. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2001 |
Just use a press to remove the shafts and then remove the snap rings to change the bearings. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 974 Registered: 2-2001 |
That is exactly the way it comes out, through the back after removing the belt pulleys. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2001 |
I got the front timing case off and the two rear bearings off. I do not have any special puller to get the front bearings off from the two drive pulley shafts. Is it possible to press the shaft/pulleys out toward the back of the case cover, and then punch the two front bearings out from the back? I have never done this before so I do not know if the shaft is retained in there by some other weird ways? The parts book does not have enough details for that kind of information. |