| Author |
Message |
Paul Hill (348paul)
Junior Member
Username: 348paul
Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 2:50 pm: | |
A friend of mine had a camshaft seize on a non f-car of his. We bored out all the journals 40 thou over size and had a new camshaft hard chrome plated with a 30 thou deposit. Ground the diameters back to a 2 thou clearance on the new journal size.
That was 10 years ago! - He still has the car and is still running today.
The only problem with this is that if you need to replace the camshaft you have to hard chrome & grind the journals again!
I am not sure if I would do this with an f-car though! - But thought it would be of interest.
Paul
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Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 496
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 11:04 am: | |
I had mine rewelded and carefully line bored by a very talented machinist. Watched and helped while he was doing it. Saved the head, and money. It can be done. |
William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member
Username: Billb
Post Number: 152
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 7:33 am: | |
Regarding the head damage, I believe the cam journal is the same as the Daytona, at .986"-.988". If so, I have made repair to this by cutting the journal bore on a Bridgeport vertical lathe. Bore is cut oversize, then install a set of VW Beetle cam bearings, p/n 111 198 541. These bearings have an I.D. the same as original bore on head. You have to hand-cut the notch for the bearing shell tangs. This works, and saves the head. I can help with this if desired. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 5:45 pm: | |
>>Should I have to fork the bill in the event that it was a peice of silicone or a improperly placed cam cap?<<
If someone caused my Ferrari engine to lock up because of workmanship issues I'd expect them to rectify a problem they caused out of their pocket, in fact that went without saying I thought.
However, speculating on cause here, is not the same as proving what happened there. Case in point, another possibility is that it was run without oil for a period of time until someone realized the problem and shut it down, filled it up and thought it was ok. So there are likely possibilities we might not of thought of. None of us are there to see the evidence and backtrack forensicly.
If you could make the case convincingly that this was a service accident/mistake/negligence case I think you might be able to persuade them to be reasonable. Of course they might insist this was coincedence or a pre-existing condition or magic, who knows.
Perhaps you could tell them you want to send the head out for expert analysis in light of some plausible and reasonable explanations for the cause that you have run across. |
Kent R. DeAvilla (Lust4spyders)
New member
Username: Lust4spyders
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
It's disappointing to entertain the thought of an incorrect installation, especially from a dealer. I trust these guys, but nobody is perfect. Should I have to fork the bill in the event that it was a peice of silicone or a improperly placed cam cap? |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 9:38 am: | |
>>JRV: If the cam bearings where placed improperly, wouldn't the problem show up sooner <<
Henryk, we've been around this stuff along time. So just looking at the problem remotely, and knowing the internals intamitely, one tries to draw reasonable, logical conclusions.
If it was just a plain old bad motor, it would have gone south years ago imo. Plugged pressure gallies is very hard to imagine or believe, because there is a screen, a filter and the pump gears to catch or smash debris. So, the only logical explanation for a regular street car cruising down the freeway siezing tends (IMO) to lead to inncorect instalation of one or more caps or possibly one or more of the caps being left loose allowing the oil to escape enough and the cam to flex under load enough causing starvation/binding of/to the affected journals.
This is simply remote speculation though. I'd bet a careful look at the head would reveal more clues (direction & matching of galling) and possibly the actual answer.
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billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 215
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 4:06 am: | |
On the major somone used silicone to put the valve cover back on...very common. The silicone can break off and plug an oil passageway. Just a theory and explains why it took 6000 miles to show up. That is why use hylomar only IMHO. Another possibility is dirt in oil plug oil holes in camshaft. Another possibility F motors pretty tough. Synthetic oil very good. You have had an oil problem for 6000miles but the cam to journal galling got to the point the oil could not keep up and the jornal failed. Sometimes the techs are not paying attnsion and move the wrong journal to the wrong spot or switch them backwards. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 525
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 11:16 pm: | |
Kent: During the major service, did they have to remove, and replace, the camshaft for any reason? I don't believe this is done during a major service. Did they remove the head for any reason? It would seem that the problem is either; no oil to the cams (blocked oil line), or what JRV suggested.
JRV: If the cam bearings where placed improperly, wouldn't the problem show up sooner then the 6,000 miles driven after the major service? |
Kent R. DeAvilla (Lust4spyders)
New member
Username: Lust4spyders
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
Hans, Thanks for the response. All was well. I very recently had a major service done at Brian Jessel Ferrari in Vancouver, B.C. The car ran beautiful. This happened about 6000 miles after major service, cam belts, synthetic oil, etc... I was cruising at low RPM when all of a sudden, I heard a high pitched squeel come from my engine. I crushed the clutch pulled over and it idled away. I let it idle and everything seemed to be fine. I drove back onto the freeway. ABout a mile and a half down the road the high pitched squeel came back. This time the car died before I could idle down. 8 crushed intake valves, ruined head, ruined intake cam. $ 7,217.00 in damage so far. |
Kent R. DeAvilla (Lust4spyders)
New member
Username: Lust4spyders
Post Number: 29
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 6:03 pm: | |
Has this happened to anyone else or am I the fortunate one? |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 926
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 5:59 pm: | |
Kent: What were the symptoms when it went bad? I.e. - How did you know you had a problem? |
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010
Post Number: 166
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 11:19 am: | |
JRV
It was a track phenomenon (particularly when turning right). Road America around the carousel is a good example. More of an issue with the FI cars than the carb'd cars (where Bill indicated they'd starve for fuel anyway!)
The "fixes" tried were many - they tried a deeper oil pan (like the 328) with modified baffles. Didn't work. They tried an accusump. Worked fine, but didn't help the problem - the flow rates of Ferrari OP are too great that the spare capacity provided by the accusump is used up in a matter of a few seconds. The only thing that did work was to convert the engines to dry sump. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1066
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 11:09 am: | |
>>In the wet sump engines, Bill Pound indicated the first sign of oil starvation (for example, under hard & long cornering at the track) is the cam journals.<<
So true...which is picked up by the OP gauge also. One sees a fluctutation in the gauge needle.
Did Bill mention if that happens on the street, haven't really heard it being a street problem?
The fix was to add a little more oil to the crankcase as I recall, unless of course one wanted to modify the pick-up and windage tray. |
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010
Post Number: 163
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 10:29 am: | |
In the wet sump engines, Bill Pound indicated the first sign of oil starvation (for example, under hard & long cornering at the track) is the cam journals. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
The "oil sludge" theory doesn't hold much water on the surface....the oil pump has gears in it (amoung plenty of other reasons sludge can't flow around, if it could even exist in a Ferrari engine to start with) that would mash any sludge into a mear smear of it;s former self.
Cam Bearing half on backwards/wrong journal sounds like the most plausible & logical cause of siezing. |
Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member
Username: Bob308gts
Post Number: 425
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 9:34 am: | |
What had been done to the car recently? Anything with gasket sealer, change of oil brand or type, engine flush. Any of these could have caused it. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 1134
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 11:20 pm: | |
I wouldnt point my finger at the air filter. The debris it lets in would go through the cylinder and out the exhaust port. Wont let stuff into the oil and the oil filter would stop anything that size. I would look elsewhere for the source. |
Kent R. DeAvilla (Lust4spyders)
New member
Username: Lust4spyders
Post Number: 27
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 10:57 pm: | |
Just a theory, but I think my K & N let some crap in my engine. My 1-4 bank oil gallery from block was clogged by debris restricting oil flow to intake cam. This cooked the journal and damaged the head and cam. This is a 44,000 mile 3.2 spider that is meticoulously maintained. |