| Author | Message | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1049 Registered: 5-2002 |
my state has them but once the car is over 20 years old and is considered a classic it is exempt. It is also exempt if it is used at any age less than 5ooo miles a year or registerd as an antique or in rural areas. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 709 Registered: 5-2001 |
I am thankful every day that my state doesn't require smog tests. Everytime it gets brought up it gets vetoed quick. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
New member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2003 |
TWM makes a two throat throttle body that bolt on replaces a 40dcnf; they even sell a conversion kit for something like $4500 www.twminjection.com | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 58 Registered: 2-2003 |
I just read on a different thread that 40% alcohol will get you through the test. Just top off after the test. DJ | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 172 Registered: 7-2002 |
I too have a carb'd car and love the sound. However, if you're going to face repeated agony with the smog test, (BTDT elsewhere) one option might be an injection conversion. Someone (TWM?) makes a fuel injection conversion that fits inside the weber throttle body....Just a thought. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Intermediate Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 1046 Registered: 5-2002 |
If your going to own a 308 it must be carbed. It's part of the Fcar mystique those 4 bad a** webers making that sound and you can do more with it.Wont even get into performance or maintenance comparisons. It must simply be carburated.JMO | ||
| BLUE308 (Davidlewis)
Junior Member Username: Davidlewis Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2002 |
Getting back to Bill V's question, I was just thinking of going the other direction - getting a QV and selling my '79. While I love the carb'd 308 for all the reasons stated here, I am always failing the damned SMOG tests here in So.Cal. I just was bestowed the dubious title of "Gross Polluter" for high CO's. Last time I had to do SMOG I totally rebuilt the carbs and put new CAT's on to pass, only to fail again 2 years later. I will vent more on this subject on a separate thread. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2003 |
John Pray, Feel free to contact me at my home E if you wish to discuss wheels further. I have a '78 GTS so we are working with the same platform essentially. Anytime, DJ | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 707 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul, that engine is going to be beautiful when your finished. | ||
| John Pray (Juanito308)
New member Username: Juanito308 Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks DJ, I would appreciate your feedback on the QV repros. Don't know what the other threads were referring to other than they mentioned vibration at both low and high speed. One thing about the stock 14x7.5" wheels is that they are solid at ANY speed. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
New member Username: Djparks Post Number: 49 Registered: 2-2003 |
John, I spent a few years in the tire business and couldn't find anything I couldn't balance abeit I came pretty close with a set of Israeli made snow tires (no kidding). It took alot of weight but they balanced out. That is not to say that they necessarily ran smooth. If the tire and/or the wheel is out of round the best balance job can't stop the vibration. I found also that wheel offset that is other than stock can set up eccentric loads in the suspension that would be magnified by any wear in the bushings/ball joints thus causing shimmy in some cases. I'll let you know how the repro's work out that I ordered if you would like. The person I ordered through said he has a set on his car and run fine.We'll see. DJ | ||
| John Pray (Juanito308)
New member Username: Juanito308 Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mike from Albuquerque Appreciate your thoughts on our trials at altitude. Interesting sidebar on my carbed 308�seems it spent most of its life in Albuquerque�you may have even seen it. It was in New Mexico until 1999 or 2000; Black and Tan �79 Berlinetta. Extensive work was performed at The Stables and Speedline Exotics and it was repainted at Car Crafters Paint and Body. Paint is what I would consider fair but it is also 16 years old. Love all the adjectives in this thread describing the carb sound. That is what originally hooked me. Paul�s ferrari308.com site has sound clips from injected cars and they sound good, just not as aggressive and angry. I�ve got an independent mechanic here in Littleton that used to work for the previous owner of Ferrari of Denver when it was called Roger Mauro Imports. Both he and his wife (what a dream) are racing fanatics and he works on a handful of carbed Ferraris for fun. He originally spent some 20 hours setting up the carbs on my car after it had been in storage for a period of time. The power is strong all away through 7,000 RPMs and only burbles and pops when I get inattentive with the throttle around corners and up hills. Downshifts and upshifts pops and bangs can be controlled by staying in the throttle or giving it blips. He set it up so well that at 5,280 and above it runs well, sounds great, and best of all (maybe) it passes smog tests with a catless Ansa exhaust. Only problem I have found is that the car�s sound can attract a lot of unwanted attention. Every boy racer has to look at it and try to run me. I�ve also unintentionally scared people in underpasses with the echo. Mike and anyone else, any thoughts on wheels for a �79 308? I�ve looked at QV repro�s and Speedline aluminums. Numerous threads on this site give contradictory viewpoints. Some people love the repros, others find they can�t be balanced and vibrate excessively. All thoughts would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 505 Registered: 3-2001 |
Here are a couple of more photos,the new pistons supplied by Nick and polished by Kermit and the manifolds and port work by Kermit.   | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2001 |
Paul--all I can say is WOW! Can't wait to hear how this set up works. Thanks for the pic also--it looks awesome. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1102 Registered: 11-2002 |
Looks "COOL" as Hell...really!! And we Know Looking Cool is Half the Battle. It's one of my 3 criteria for mods: 1) It has to work 2) It has to Improve 3) It "HAS TO" Look COOL !! ;-) | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 113 Registered: 8-2001 |
Actually the vacuum tubes for ignition and brake are metered down by soldering the fitting end, and drilling a 1/16" hole thru. This allows the passage of enough vacuum to suffice, without making it almost impossible to balance the carbs. This is the same as the standard carbed 308. The ports are then opened to allow a smooth transition from the larger carbs, to the previously ported 308. Instead of a sideways figure 8 shape, the gaskets are almost interchangeable with a 348. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 504 Registered: 3-2001 |
DJ, The Vacuum tubes are for advance and brake booster and as also balance tubes. The deck lid has been cut open and could be reversible but reversing everything I have done would never pay. I never plan on selling this car! | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
New member Username: Djparks Post Number: 47 Registered: 2-2003 |
Paul, the mods look HOT! The look of those stacks poking up through the deck will be great though I hope the modifications to the deck aren't irreversable. Can you fill me in on the vacuum ports/lines at each intake runner and how they will be utilized. Mine are set up in a closed loop and doubt they are serving their original purpose. My 240 runs a balance tube between each carb but it is much larger in diameter than the tubes I see here. Thanks, DJ | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 503 Registered: 3-2001 |
Steve, There a guy I know who will build all the Fuel lines has access to all fittings. I am still a month or so from getting it running. Matt, Rear deck lid will be modified, louvered area will be replaced with slotted clear acrylic pastic like the F-50 which will include area where raised manifold area was. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2821 Registered: 8-2002 |
Paul, the horns look WAY too high. are you going to modify the deck lid? | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 325 Registered: 2-2001 |
Paul , super job. How are you going to do the fuel lines? Do you have a source for banjo fittings with flare connections? I'd like to see the finished product here. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 502 Registered: 3-2001 |
Here's the first photo of my 308 QV conversion to Webers! manifolds are custom made and carbs are IDF's  | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2813 Registered: 8-2002 |
The carb cars have this mean and nasty roar and burbble that no other car has. I love them | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1149 Registered: 12-2001 |
You lose the induction roar with the injected cars and a tubi on a QV wont make the sound a carb car makes. I dont get a pop or burble coasting, gearing up or down. The poping on decel drove me nuts so I played with the idle mixture (which is the circut you are running on during decel) by richening it and that fixed it completely. The popping in my case was a lean mixture. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 154 Registered: 10-2002 |
Absolutely it does! Sounds more open, agressive, edgy, angry, FERRARI! At all RPMS, especially as you get 4k and above. Unlike anything else I've ever heard, anyway. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2001 |
I didnt realize that a carb 308 would sound different then an injected. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 152 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'll chime in here. 78 308 GTS, a carb car--I love it. Mostly the same experience as everyone else--the sound is amazing, there is a lot of power, but there is some work in getting them set up correctly. John Pray, welcome to FerrariChat. I'm just down the road from you in Albuquerque, at 5000ft elevation. That changes everything--you will need to change your jets to lean things out a bit (sounds like you've done this already). I'd like to say that I get the exact same popping that you talk about. A little popping and gurgle on overrun is very typical, happened on my old motorcycle and dad's vette, too. What I haven't heard anyone else report, though, is some popping on upshifts. I get that, too--and have just learned to live with it, even though I've never heard it anywhere else. Then again, I've never driven a carb car other than mine at high altitude before. You won't be disappointed with 16" rims--I just got mine myself! In general, very pleased with the carb car. A friend has a QV. In general, more modern interior, lots of little touches and "updates." I never realized how "classic" the carb 308s were until I went for a ride in his car... The flat aluminum instrument console, the matching aluminum momo steering wheel braces are "classic," as well as the location of the window switches, etc. I prefer this style over that of the QV. Just some thoughts. --Mike | ||
| matt (Matthewmag)
New member Username: Matthewmag Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2002 |
Russ, good info, thanks for sharing (and one typo....) 308 single dist intake 30/50/260 exhaust 36/28/244 | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 266 Registered: 2-2002 |
Bill: Great pictures! You need to post more. Ken | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
New member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2003 |
According to the Original Ferrari V-8 (might want to check my duration #s, math in public and all) The 308 twin dist: intake open btdc/close abdc/duration = 34/46/260 exhaust open bbdc/ close atdc/duration = 36/38/254 308 single dist intake 30/50/260 exhaust 36/38/244 308 gtbi euro intake 16/48/244 ex. 54/10/244 308gtbi usa in. 16/48/244 ex. 50/14/244 qv euro in. 16/48/244 ex. 54/10/244 qv usa in. 16/48/244 ex. 40/14/234 3.2 all in. 16/48/244 ex. 54/10/244 for comparison: 365 gtb/4 in. 45/46/271 ex. 46/38/264 275 gtb/4 in. 45/65/290 ex. 60/41/281 You can see in the v-8s that many have the same durations (assuming same lift, possibly same cam)but different timing. Lori at Web-cam suggested when my carbs go on my 3.2, to first try the stock cams with the exhaust retarded around 5 degrees or so to give overlap and bring the lobe centers closer to see if I like it before going to a more aggressive profile. She said with the stock lobe centers there was room to play. The Web-cam folks are VERY helpful. hope this helps rt | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1147 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ben, I see what you mean by the cams looking the same but Im only seeing valve timing and not lift in this book I have. It does show though that the carb to FI cams are very different and the US to Euro timing is only changed with the phasing. However, I measured my cams when it was apart and saw .300" lift on both cams, apparently they are supposed to be .305" but I was using a vernier at the time. The early US cams I checked had .330" lift. The original V8 book doesnt mention this, they just seperate Fi from carbs and US to euro but dont go year to year. I believe there are a pile of different cams from the factory depending on the market and year. | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 252 Registered: 9-2001 |
It's good to to see so many satisfied owners of carbed cars. Your comments really help . Since my thinking on this is preliminary, I haven't taken any steps to advertise the car yet. I may even look for a swap +cash deal at some point. By the way, here is a web photo album of some pics which were taken last weekend: <http://freshtoad.com/ferrari/> Enjoy, comrads! | ||
| John Pray (Juanito308)
New member Username: Juanito308 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
Brand new owner (and brand new participant to FerrariChat). Bought a '79 308 GTB w/ 12,500 miles. We live in the Denver metro area with stringent (read draconian) emissions laws. The car is set up to pass Colorado emissions and still runs like a champ. Only noticeable incidents involve popping at shifts and deceleration that may be exacerbated by the Ansa exhaust. I believe this is due to lean carb setup and our thin air. The car starts and accelerates with a vengeance. Nothing like 6,500 RPMs right behind your head! Now all I have to do is get wheels and tires that will keep up with the engine. The 14� wheels are nice but the 70 series tires seem to flex too much. To date, I am very pleased with my choice of a carb car. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1146 Registered: 12-2001 |
You can re-time the cams with the pinned holes in the cam gears, you can degree them to what ever you want but there will be some trade off Im sure. Alot of work for 10HP at 7700rpm. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have a mondial workshop book its showing the QV engine (f105) at 230HP and the 2v egnine(F106b) at 205hp.With US specs. Whats interesting is that the Euro version 2v is listed at 215hp. The cams on the euro and the usa are showing to be the same, but they set the exhaust cam on the euro 4deg different. I dont know how many degrees there are on one cam tooth, but this might be a way to pick up some extra hp. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1144 Registered: 12-2001 |
The early US cams, pre converters had different cams than the 78 and up. They were better, more lift and different valve timing. The Euro's were better still. If you want 255hp then you need the euro cams, drysump and no smog, provided the rest is stock. Im guessing but I would think the 80 FI US cams would be the same as my 79 carb cams. If not, then they are just as bad. The worst of the bunch. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 936 Registered: 4-2002 |
According to "Original V8", there are some cam differences between the twin distributor and single distributor US models, maybe Euro too. I don't have the book right in front of me, so the details are just a little fuzzy. PS Ben: I guess this means if the car is equipped with your distributor, it has different cams! <jk> | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2001 |
Are the camshafts different in a carb car vs the 80-81 2v engines? Im assuming the 80-81 has less power due to emissions, so would the 80-81 have just as much power with the emission junk removed and going to a single distributor? | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
New member Username: Djparks Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2003 |
I am currently running 3, 40 DCOE Webers (side draft) on another car of mine and found that they aren't that trickey to run if you just follow the correct procedures when setting up the base line. I taught myself to rebuild them last January and that helped alot in familiarization of the design and intended use. I'm sure I'll get the same opportunity with the DCNF's on my GTS. I guess the upside to this is I don't have to worry about computers or bad injectors. The down side is no altitude compensation and mediocre mileage as opposed to optimum fuel air mixture from injection. It's fun to try though. Oh yeah, the carbs DO sound great with the aircleaner off! DJ | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 934 Registered: 4-2002 |
Matt: I know. (sob!) | ||
| JohnR. (Rivee)
Junior Member Username: Rivee Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bill, I think any newer F car would be a little better simply because of the advancement in technology. Although I own a 78 carb 308 and absolutely love it, I think having a car 7 years younger would be nice also and would have to think seriously about a trade. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2776 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hans, GT4's dont count.....  | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 930 Registered: 4-2002 |
Probably the biggest problem with the carb cars is that they are 25+ years old, and there is a good chance that the carbs may need an overhaul. If this has been done, you're probably good to go for another 25 years. The entire car is simpler, so if you have a problem, it's easier to diagnose and fix. Syncronization is a non-issue, IMO, as once it's set up (correctly), you don't need to mess with it again. At least not for several years. Many of the problems that you hear about result from someone who didn't know what they were doing screwing around with the carbs. It can take some effort getting a bad setup working correctly again. Mine starts fine, runs fine, and even gets good gas mileage. I'm currently tinkering with jets, but that's only because I want to, not because I really have to. | ||
| Anthony A. (Yank05)
Junior Member Username: Yank05 Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2001 |
Nice car, Steve! | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 321 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bill , I can't do a comparison with a QV but all I can tell you about my 77 is I love the noise the smell and the performance. Every time I drive it it brings me back to the fun days of driving. Lot of fun to clean out the plugs (Ferrari 7500rpm tune up) and listen to the carb's sing. You've got to remember that this is not a todays FI car and the carbs are a little touchy on cold start but once you got it it's easy.Although I don't use it in the NY winters because of the snow and salt I have run it in 10-20 degree weather without any problems. This year the snow here is killing my fun but I'm in the winter maint. mode after my WP blew before Christmas. My 2 cents | ||
| Anthony A. (Yank05)
Junior Member Username: Yank05 Post Number: 133 Registered: 8-2001 |
My mechanic told me the early '76/'77 US cars easily produce 255-260 hp when tuned right (i.e., not to factory US specs, which had emissions influence the tuning). | ||
| Anthony A. (Yank05)
Junior Member Username: Yank05 Post Number: 132 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bill, Your QV is beautiful......... ...you know my view of this subject! A early carbed car, non-catalyst '76-'77 GTB, when tuned right, are in my opinion, the absolute best of the 308/328 series. A back to basics, classic, "Webered" Ferrari, with beautiful lines, classic interior with brushed aluminum wheel and dash face, and a great sound. The lack of power steering and heavier control forces are a PLUS for me! One of the best GT cars around, and if you find a good one (I have been looking for 19 months for this particular year, as you know), you probably will not be disappointed. Your QV is beautiful though, and if it stays reliable, there is always a risk with getting another car.....so I guess I am not helping you much here! Do you have your sights on the blue '77 at FORZA? I'll shoot you an email with the lastest on the '77 I am looking at! Anthony | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 570 Registered: 10-2002 |
Not to put any non QV owners down, but from what I've heard and read is, that the QV is better in any regard other than sound. So the best of both worlds would be a QV with a tubi. Having said that, I've also heard, that a 328 is superior in any regard to any 308. Ok, some folks prefer the 308 nose. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1142 Registered: 12-2001 |
Matt, the power figures you mention on the carb 308 are euro drysump 76-77 numbers. A 78-79 US wetsump is closer to 205hp. I even question if they ever made 255 in euro form. After all the work Ive done to my carbed 79 engine, I think a set of euro or custom cams would be needed to make 255-275 HP unfortunately. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2774 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave 77-79 carb 255bhp 80-82 FI 205bhp +50 additional lbs 83-85 QV 245bhp +126 additional lbs I have been driving my carb everyday and including the rain. It's a great daily. I have never owned a QV but I love the carb car | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 449 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bill, Having had both I would say mainly the carb cars are way more cool, but more work to drive (which can be a good thing) A set of 16 inch wheels and good tires greatly improves handling. The QV's are easier to drive with a more flexible motor, lower gears and perhaps a tad more power. QV motors last longer, many are over 100K. From what I have seen, carb motors need valve jobs before 100K. Also, QV's have much better paint and are far less prone to rust. My advice if you drive a lot would be to stick with the QV. Otherwise I would opt for a carb because it is more classic IMO. Dave | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1073 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>2. Air Conditioner is a mouse breathing on an ice cube. <<< LOLOLOL All the air leaks under the dash need to be eliminated/fixed and the dash vents closed and it will blow alot more cold air. Admittedly not a hurricane, but when well sealed they allow more cold air out the vents. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2772 Registered: 8-2002 |
Anthony, The factory changed the way the roof attaches to the car in late 79. The 77-79 cars roofs do not sit on the windshield frame, they press against it. M | ||
| Antony R Chapman (Antonio888)
New member Username: Antonio888 Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill, agree with the comments from Jerry & Matt except for the leaky roof which I haven't experienced. I have a 1980 carb and have no problems with tuning etc. The AC is easily fixed by installing a York compressor - about 3 times more powerful and freezing cold. Only problem I had was sometimes it didn't start due to dirty connections which was easily fixed - otherwise she screams ! | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 2766 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, I drive my 78 carb 308 everyday. I drive it in the "cold winter" of 50 degrees in the morning to the hot summers of 110 degrees. I have noticed the following. They are not limited to the carbs so much as the year the car was made. 1. It does not start like a honda. You need to get in. turn the fuel pump - wait 15 seconds - and it fires right up. 2. Air Conditioner is a mouse breathing on an ice cube. 3. GTS top leaks like a sive until you replace the front seal. $ 180 from gt car parts. 4. Sometimes the carbs hesitate but nothing to bad. Best part is the POWER and the sound of the engine just past 4000. If you can get one. do not pass it up. If you come to So Cal before you get it, you can come over and drive mine for the day. It's a hoot. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 514 Registered: 7-2001 |
Bill, I love my '79. I have never had starting problems or carb issues after 2.5 years. Also with a TUBI and single dist, it runs like a champ. | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 251 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am having some thoughts of replacing my '85 QV with an earlier carbed 308. I'm very happy with the QV, but may consider an earlier carbed version for financial reasons only. The question is how reliable are the carbed 308's as compared with the injected models? I've heard that it may be difficult to keep the carbs in tune/ in sync with various temperature/ humidity changes, etc. What about starting issues--any characteristic problems in that area? I'm interested in a car which has relatively reliable performance as I tend to drive my cars frequently. Any thoughts from carbed 308 owners would be appreciated. |