| Author |
Message |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1984
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
Paul, I had both my headers and mufflers cermanic coated with the color "aluminum" which is a silver color. But, I understand that you can have it done almost any color you like. Tim is correct , my headers were coated inside and out. Ken, cermanic coating is better than SS as it desipates heat better, flows better and best of all is less expensive. |
Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 783
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Why would someone ceramic coat an exhaust as opposed to buying SS? |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 281
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 9:39 am: | |
what color is the ceramic coating? silver? white? |
Tim Hogan (Tojo)
Junior Member
Username: Tojo
Post Number: 89
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 7:10 am: | |
Dr Tommy, I don't know if the tape works as well as the coating. I've always been dubious about the tape. I've seen it on non F-cars and it's been peeling off in places which makes me wonder if it's making hotspots. Also a good ceramic coating will be inside and out, which greatly improves exhaust air flow through the headers. Tape won't do that.
Ben I've seen ceramic coating on cars that were done 5 or 6 years ago and it was all good. To me the point of coating is to reduce engine bay temp, improve air flow and increase power. Looks become a secondary issue. I don't think chrome will do all of the above. Maybe you should investigate different plating companies if you do it again.
Another great use for ceramic coating is the water expansion tank. The mob that did mine split the tank down the seam, coat the inside, reweld, coat the outside, and repaint the tank. They gaurantee it won't rust out. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 411
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 6:50 pm: | |
I got them both out. It was a real pain.
The rear one did come out the top. Removed the expansion tank, engine brace, cam cover and it lifted out.
The front one came out with no trouble at all. Of coarse the AC Compressor, alternator, right fuel tank, cam belt covers, water pipe and fuel tank crossover pipe were all removed as well...
I bought a really nift set of "gear wrenches" at the Ace Hardware. Not sure who manufactured them.... but they are very thin, extremely well made and warranteed for life. One end has a box end wrench, the other has a ratcheting closed end. they only require 5 degrees of movement to work. I got 8mm through 19mm. They worked GREAT. This tool made the job much easier. |
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308
Post Number: 173
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 4:59 pm: | |
So, I went digging and found a group of responses I had previously compiled on how to remove the headers. Here it is:
1. I had both headers off my 308. The rear one needs to go UP through the
open engine bonnet. It won't fit down through. Trust me on this. Even if
you remove the muffler, shields, emergency brake cables, etc. It still won't
go down through. So, save yourself all that time and remove the CIS fuel/air
meter, heat shield, top engine wishbone engine mount, and air cleaner, and it
will go up through.
That being said, who knows. Euro cars may be different. Different years
may be different too.
2. They come out the top... on the GTB that meant removing the coolant tank and reaction link, then the headers. On my GTSi, you need to remove the fuel head and reaction link.
Ric Rainbolt
<hr>
3. US or Euro car? I've done the Euro 308 GTS. For the aft header, remove the engine brace (between the aft valve cover and the frame) and associated bracketry, take the coolant reservoir loose from the frame and support it out of the way (I was able to put it between the aft cam cover and the right wheel well without having to disconnect the coolant lines), disconnect the header from the muffler, rotate the header up and out between the engine and the frame - I recall having to try several rotations before finding one that let me get the header out. If I remember correctly, I removed the muffler first and had already removed the exhaust heat shield before removing the header - not sure if this is necessary to get the header out. You may be able to maneuver the header sufficiently to get access to all the heat shield bolts and remove the heatshield without pulling the muffler.
Note if removing the muffler - you have to disconnect the right axle half-shaft in order to get the muffler off the car.
For the forward header, put the car on jackstands or better yet a lift, remove the right fender well liner, heat shields, and alternator, disconnect the shift shaft at the engine housing and at the shifter (requires removing the center console for access to the shifter end) and move the shift shaft forward out of the way, disconnect and move out of the way the various wiring harnesses in the area, loosen the hose clamps and tie-down strap for the gas crossover pipe and rotate it out of the way (shouldn't have to disconnect it, but watch for gas leaks from the connecting hose sections as you rotate the pipe - this is a good time to drain the tanks and replace these hoses), and finagle the header out through the bottom. Was quite a pain in the rear to figure out by trial and error - I spent three evenings with the header loose in the engine compartment progressively removing things until I got it out. Benefit of this approach was that I did not have to disconnect any coolant lines or remove the cam covers or gas tanks.
When you have the headers out, seriously consider getting them ceramic coated - I did that to mine three years ago and they still look pristine today.
Not sure this procedure will work as well on a US car as the heat shield, muffler, and header configuration is different. Hope this helps,
Mike Kelly
'79 308 GTS Euro
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Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 142
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 1:11 pm: | |
I had the ceramic coating done once, and noticed after a few years it caused the headers to rust, because I washed my engine alot. Has anyone else had a problem with the ceremic coatings. Personaly I think if i did it all over again I would go to chrome, I like the way it turns colors close to the heads. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1977
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 12:57 pm: | |
Tim, I had the headers and mufflers on my Boxer cermanic coated and they look GREAT. The cost for everything was only $450.00. |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 274
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 12:25 pm: | |
To remove the rear header undo the parking brake pivot and pulley mount. Undo all four engine mounts and slide the engine forward about 3 inches. The header will just fall out on the floor. Do not try and go to the rear of the brace. The header drops out forward of the rear brace!! No need to cut anything. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member
Username: Vwalfa4re
Post Number: 801
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 7:17 am: | |
Would that work the same as ceramic tape? |
Tim Hogan (Tojo)
Junior Member
Username: Tojo
Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 6:15 am: | |
I found removing the rear headers pretty easy. Just like Mike said.
The fwd headers do come out but require much more farting around If you've never done it before. It is a right prick of a job. I removed the r/h petrol tank, but have since found out it can also be done if you remove the alternator and you sometimes have to unbolt the aircon pump. I guess you have to decide which is the lesser of the 2 evils. If you don't have the heat shields I think you can remove them just with the alternator out. It does take some juggling though.
My 2 cent's worth would also be to have the pipes ceramic coated while they're out. No more need for heat shields that get in the way (makes assembly and future removal easier), and a little more power for your engine. |
Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Junior Member
Username: Pupz308
Post Number: 158
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:46 am: | |
I've "Been there, done that" too about four months ago.
Rest assured: it is possible to remove the rear header from the car WITHOUT removing the engine.
I got the procedure from a post here by Ric Rainbolt if I recall correctly. The general feeling was, remove the coolant expansion tank, remove the rear engine mount and brace, possibly remove something else, and it will very carefully come up through the top with the right rotation. I can attest to the removal of the rear header only.
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Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member
Username: Atlantaman
Post Number: 99
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:53 pm: | |
The rear header can be removed ( or installed)by putting a floor jack under the motor and lifting it about 1" off or the mounts. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 407
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:31 pm: | |
With an effort comperable to a Marine amphibious assault on a Japanese held island I FINALLY got the rear header seperated from the engine and the air injection manifold off. 2 of the nuts took 3+ hours each.
Now I find that as Jeff has said, the header cannot be removed from the car without removing the entire engine. Im stupified at this little tidbit of engineering excellence.
I always thought it was COOL that Ferrari followed a different philosophy in racing than other companies. Instead of "race on sunday to sell on monday" Ferrari was "sell on friday to race on sunday". The road cars were necessary as a means of raising funds to pay for racing. Ive definitly changed my min.... this is a BAD philosophy!
With Porsche the racing success and experience results in excellent engineering of the road cars. With Ferrari, the road cars are thrown together with no apparent thought to engineering at all. The engine is gorgeous with fantastic casting quality and detail. Everything else is an afterthought. Its like Enzo and friends perpetrating a cruel joke to raise the money to pay for the racing habit.
Its a good thing this car looks so good and is so much fun to drive... otherwise It would be nothing more than a bad memory and someone elses headache!
Perhaps I will cut out the small rear frame member and fabricate some brackets so it can be bolted in and out while being braced for structural integrity when fully installed. It blows me away that the factory did not make that frame member removable. |
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 500
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 6:23 pm: | |
Remove the right hand side gas tank to get the header out of the car. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 951
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
BTW, my car hasn't had the heat shields for years. Seems to be no ill effect, altho I open the engine cover on shut down to try to reduce heat soak. There are several soft rubber electrical conduits near the exhaust that show no signs of scorching or hardening. |
Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
Junior Member
Username: Jbk
Post Number: 103
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 4:19 pm: | |
It gets worse. Once you do get the nuts off, you can't remove the headers with the engine in the car (at least I couldn't figure out how). What I did was lift the engine partially up to get enough clearance to drop them out. Before putting them back in I stripped the crappy and bulky insulation off so you can see the actual pipes. Made a heat shield for the starter. Now can get to the nuts with a regular socket and long extension. |
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 497
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 9:47 pm: | |
They are called Crow-foot wrenches |
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010
Post Number: 177
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 9:37 pm: | |
Terry
BTDT this last weekend. For the AI manifold I purchased a set of offset 3/4 sockets from NAPA (sorry, I do not know the correct term - the drive is offset from the "socket", actually a partially open wrench. Bit by bit they did the trick, once you get them moving they were actually quite easy. On the header, no special tools, just a 13mm wrench. You can access 3 of the lower nuts from the RH wheel well. Other from above. Also, through the gaps in the header to ex port connections. Be patient. You will get there.
Philip |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 405
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 8:09 pm: | |
I swear this task ranks up there with brain surgury and broken finger nose picking. Grrrrrrrrrrr what a monumental pain in the ASS!
There are several nuts holding on both the headers and 2 on the air injection manifolds that it is just flat impossible to get a wrench on. I have tried every angle and trick I can come up with. It seems its impossible to remove the engine with headers attached... and its impossible to remove headers with the engine in the car. Typical Ferrari engineering I guess.
Im going to purchase a couple of cheap 13mm and 17mm long wrenches tomorrow and bend them up into nifty shapes. This would seem to be the only possible means of getting some of these nuts off. One nut is really screwed up. The header heat shield is jammed up tight against it. Even if it could turn, the heat shield will prevent it from coming off. So far, I cannot get any leverage against the heat shield to bend it enough to allow the nuts to turn or be removed.
If we ever catch Osama, I have the perfect torture.... Ferrari mechanic. Never let him drive. Never let him even sit in it and go Vrooom Vrooom, just force him to work on them non-stop 24 hours per day.
Any tips, voodoo secrets or KGB spy reports on this subject are greatly appreciated.
Terry |