| Author | Message | ||
| Tim Worley (Tworley)
New member Username: Tworley Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks for all of the good advice on annealing. I�ve been in contact with Ric via email and he has been very helpful as well. It sounds like my head gaskets were only partially annealed. So it looks like I will re-heat them and try again. The engine has been prepared for the turbo in the following ways: a small diameter o-rings have been added to the sleeves (no relief cut on the heads). Forged J&E pistons with a heat coating on the top and friction reducing coating on the sides�they have also been stress relieved to accommodate expansion at high boost. Total seal rings. Oversized wrist pins, main bearings and thrust washers are coated. The exhaust valves have been changed to stainless, upgraded valve guides all around and everything was balanced. Mark, I�ll let you know what works and how much boost I get up to. Ric had indicated on his web page that it�s possible (on an �81 2v GTSi) to snap the input shaft above 450-flywheel hp, and last I heard he was only running 6 psi and had plenty of power there. | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 118 Registered: 8-2001 |
O ringing a copper head gasket is common in othe forms of racing that I've done. Usually a reciever groove, the depth being 1/2 of the o ring diameter is cut into the block, or in this cas the sleeve, and a steel or stainless steel ring is carefully hand fitted on the end gap, often with the use of a piston ring gap cutter. This assures a no gap seal. The seal rings are placed into the block,and the heads lightly torqued down. This leaves an imprint on the head, which is milled to form a shallow groove where the imprint is, so that the full head torque somewhat pushes the gasket into it. This locks the gasket into place. There are other methods I'm sure, but I have never had a problem with it done this way. Rob made an excellent point onthe pisston topic. Stock is definately OUT here, as they will not withstand the pressure. I note that Ric uses my personal favorite, J&E. They hold up well. My chioce in sealer is Permatex Copper Spray -a gasket, used on both sides. This particular combo withstood 3000 HP 450 inch Blown Alky no problems. If it would have been a Fuel motor, I would have stepped up to .082" thick rings, instead of the .062" ones I usd in the Alky motor.With a smaller o ring it may not be necessary to cut the reciever grooves in the head. Hope that helps. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mark, from what I've read, and talked to an artist who works in copper, Kermit's info is right about anealing copper. BTW, I had the head O-ringed on an F40 monster turbo uprade upon the advice of Norwood. We used the OEM gaskets for this. The goal was 26 psig in the intake. Also coated the piston tops, combustion chambers. Two Garret T3/4 50 trim ball bearings from Turbonetics. I think we used 0.020 wire for the rings. Changed top piston ring to cast iron 1/16 inch to handle small amounts of detonation without breaking. Hope this helps. Rob | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 438 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, What you've got sounds right,that is o-ringing. Some like to do the head, some the cylinder. What does norwood say about the coolant leaks? | ||
| Tim Worley (Tworley)
New member Username: Tworley Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2003 |
Matt, thanks for the advice. By doing this, they would stay soft unless they are work hardened right? As it is, the copper gaskets I have were supposedly annealed to begin with. Do you know of any way to test the softness of a copper gasket? I would like to get a read on their current state. They definitely don�t bend under their own weight. As far as the O-rings�from what I�ve read the stainless o-ring in the sleeve and an annealed copper gasket should be sufficient. (I do have stainless rings in the sleeves.) So I am a bit confused on the meaning of O-ringing the block / heads. Are you referring to placing a rubber o-ring in the coolant/oil paths? If so, do you have any tips on doing this? I could easily put rubber o-rings in the oil path, however doing it to the coolant path is difficult due to the irregular shape. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, o-ringing is not for coolant, it is done around the cylinders to help keep the pressure in. I'm getting ready to do the copper gaskets and o-ringing too, so I'm very interested to find out what works. How much boost will you be running? I've been runnig 10 psi for a couple years with a stock engine, but have my eye on 20 this year  Annealing is done by heating and cooling slowly, about 100F/hr. Put them in the self cleaning over and push clean, when the door opens again, they're done. | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 117 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tworley, Annealing copper is done as follows: Heat to a dull red. Immediately Quench by immersion in cold water. this will make them "Dead Soft", an industry term. This trick works well on copper o rings too! Aluminum works the same way. In the Aircraft Industry, they use "Icebox" rivets. These are 7000 series aluminum rivets that are due to strength too hard to "Mash". They use the same technique, and keep them in a refridgerator. There is about a 6-8 hour "Window" to use them as they come back up to strength. BTW: with a Turbo, I would look into O ringing the block / heads as Ben suggests. It is a bit of work but it will make a big differance in sealing. | ||
| Tim Worley (Tworley)
New member Username: Tworley Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks for the info. I read about the sealer and using o-rings in the cooling paths on an OEM web page. I haven't tried any of this; the problem with an o-ring is the cooling path shapes are irregular, not cylindrical. I think there is a way to get these to seal without adding sealer. I just didn�t want to charge off and start adding sealer and o-rings with out trying the fundamentals; the problem is I am not sure what the fundamentals are when using a copper gasket. This is a great link I just found to a completed project. http://www.rainbolt.com/ferrari/turbopics.htm I think I might copy the red intake and valve covers. I can call the guys that did my heads, or Norwood�s, Monday, but that means I have to wait even longer to drop my engine. This project is coming up on a year and I�m getting antsy but I want to make sure I do things right. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2001 |
Did you o-ring the heads or block? I have never used a copper head gaskets but read alot about them. Did you use a sealer on the head gasket? From what I have read there is a special sealer you should use with caopper head gaskets. | ||
| Tim Worley (Tworley)
New member Username: Tworley Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2003 |
I'm building up a turbo 308. I purchased copper head gaskets from Norwood�s. These gaskets are supposed to be annealed but I'm having trouble getting them to pressure check. Has anyone been down this road? I did read through the archives and found a few references from �ricrain� (turns out he�s done the same upgrade). I�m getting a lot of weeping around the gasket. I cleaned all the mating surfaces well. The head and block have been made plainer. I did not abrade the copper gasket just cleaned them well. I took my time applying torque to the heads. Just in case anyone is wondering�..The engine has been prepared for the turbo. This is my first Ferrari and my first post so please forgive any faux pas. |