| Author | Message | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 536 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here she is: Dow Corning 321 Moly/Graphite Dry Film Lubricant This lubricant is excellent for dusty applications because it doesn't attract contaminants. Use on tools, gears, taps, drills, and splines. Handles pressures up to 50,000 psi. Temperature range is -290� to +840� F. Pkg. Each Qty. Partial Pkg. Full Pkg. 11-oz. (net wt.) Aerosol 12 1254K14 $21.19 $19.61 1254K14 is McMaster's part number Order here: www.mcmaster.com | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 535 Registered: 11-2002 |
For thread lubrication on single nut TR, F40, F50, F1 race cars, etc., I use Dow's teflon based dry-parting compound. Comes in a spray can with an MSDS stating you shouldn't breathe the stuff in. Can be found at McMaster-Carr. Clean threads, spray on, wait five minutes or so, torque wheels. Works much better than Cop-A-Slip or other pasty anti-seize in this high torque application. | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well guys, couldn't help but make a final post. Believe it or not, the front lugs had been lubricated! There was no apparent galling or irregularities. I think some goon simply overtightened these things (maybe hot). Unreal. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 219 Registered: 8-2002 |
Glad you got them off, all else fails get a bigger hammer | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2003 |
Paul good point on the threads. I'll sort that out tomorrow when I work on it. | ||
| Paul Wehmer (Pwehmer)
Junior Member Username: Pwehmer Post Number: 133 Registered: 10-2002 |
Might be expensive but buying a tap and die to true up the threads would be a good idea. No amount of anti-seize will protect if the fit is interference on the threads now. You probably had a certain amount of galling from the excessive torque. The best way I know to clean the metal pick up off is with a tap and die. I'm sure someone here knows the thread size and pitch. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 237 Registered: 10-2002 |
Darn......I'm so glad you finally got 'em loose! | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2003 |
Conclusion! More torque! My heavy equipment contact came out today with their large (and I mean large) straight body rig. He started with the 1000'-lb gun and got the left front off with modest effort which I attribute to the lubrication efforts. The right front which I had not worked on was another story. He couldn't guarantee me he had 1000'-lbs but he was ready to step up to his torque multiplier. All I can say is that it was on tight even based on his experience with large excavation equipment but he got the lug loosened(I about hugged him). My socket had a hurten put on it. The 3/4" drive slot is substantially disfigured and the inside of the socket is well on its way to being rounded but it is in good enough shape for "normal" usage. I'm going to pull all components off this weekend to clean and inspect for damage then apply anti-sieze. Thanks again to everybody. There is wisdom in many counselors! Brad | ||
| Adam Goldman '86 TR (Icnsltmfg)
Member Username: Icnsltmfg Post Number: 569 Registered: 8-2001 |
I also take a yellow grease pen, and mark the nut with a line onto the wheel. I can see very quickly if the nut has moved from the last time I hit it with the hammer. | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2003 |
To all you guys, THANKS! The moral (and technical) support has been most appreciated. I am following up on the thread from Jeff Ryerson and confirmed by David Moore. I am hoping the original truck shop may not have had the wrench up to the stated torque. I contacted a heavy equipment company in the area and they are do to arrive tomorrow. I'm still waiting for confirmation which tools he's bringing but they have torque wrenches up to 2000ft-lbs so one way or another we'll see what happens. I'm trusting that the first attempt was under 800. I know personally with the breaker bar and 8' pipe, I had no less than 400ft-lbs. David, believe me if I was anywhere in Texas I'd take you up on the offer. Joe, I do have a Stahwille dual directional torque wrench, multiplier and special socket from Baum tools. Doesn't look quite as nice as your purchase but it works (on my rear wheels). You can count on the fact that when these babies do finally come off I'll be putting anti sieze on. I also like your regimen for tighting and maintaining. I'll implement that process when this is over. I don't know what the previouse owner did to get them to this point but this has been a bear. I'll post the results soon. | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 306 Registered: 5-2001 |
Brad, Just saw this thread and want to share my experience with the infamous TR single lugs. I had the same problem two years ago and came away a winner by investing in the tools below. I bought the 8-point socket from Trutlands for $320.00 and the Snap-On Torque-O-Matic 350lb. two directional torque wrench on eBay for $50.00. After going through a similar process you have I bought the 8-point socket, went down to Les Scwab Tires and had them remove my left-rear lug with their 500lb. semi-truck hydraulic hammer. I applied Loctite copper-based anti-cease liberally to the nut threads and inside the wheel hub threads. After that experience I loosen all four nuts, always when cold, and re-torque them every month or two. It only takes about 10 minutes and I also clean off old anti-cease and re-apply a new liberal amount. Re-torque to 325lbs with the tool setup and I have tremendous peace of mind. The Ferrari socket tool number is: AV-1522 Torque wrench: Snap-On Torqe-O-Matic C-352 Hope this helps you and all TR owners with the single lugs, Joe   | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 620 Registered: 4-2002 |
I would have taken a 'precision' grinding approach by now with Dremel and mini cutting wheels. Even if its only to one side first to assess whats going on. With a steady hand it will be no sweat and you just stop short of cutting into any other components, then split the nut when nearly through. | ||
| David Moore (Speedmoore)
New member Username: Speedmoore Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brad: I doubt the truck stop really had 800 ft. lb. On the race cars with stubborn center loc nuts(and we use large industrial fittings on the air hose as well as Nitrogen bumped up to 300psi and a 1" Ingeral Rand ported) we still have trouble at times. Also it helps tremendously if you don't wail on the impact, but rather rapp it a few seconds at a time. This way higher pressure and volume gets to the gun. Seems to be a problem when they are tightened when the wheels have heat in them. Also, the way I remember the proper thread rotation is if the wheel is spinning in its proper rotation (like going down the road) if you grab the nut, it will tighten. Or simply off is turning in the same direction of wheel rotation when the car is going forward. If you were in Austin TX, I'd say come by my shop and we could get them off. Worse case scenario, when increased nitrogen pressure with the impact doesn't work, we use a torque multiplier (usually 4-1 ratio). Someone will have to apply "HEAVY" pressure on the brakes to keep them still, but the torque should be enough. Also, you may want to drive and warm up the wheels by good braking to help ease them off. Good luck. Contact me via my email if you need further assistance. We'll also be at Road Atlanta next week for the Walter Mitty if you are in that area. David | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 316 Registered: 9-2002 |
I hate tight nuts :o) | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 503 Registered: 6-2002 |
Brad - waiting, breathless with anticipation, for your report on these nuts. Jim S. | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks again to all for the help. Jim, I did make a tentative appointment with the nearest Ferrari dealer about 2 hours away. In the mean time I'm still making some efforts in resolving the problem myself. Frankly, if it was $100 it would be well worth it. The problem is I'm not sure they fully understand the ridiculous level of torque on this thing. If they understand and still tell me they can do it, Great. Jeff, I didn't think about the possibility the gun may be "over rated". I do have at least one heavy equipment shop in the area so I may just give them a call. In the mean time I'm trying the slow but (hopefully) sure method of penetrating lubricant. I've drilled precision hole at a critical point in the nut which allows me to inject a high penetrating lubricant in the anular space around the threads. I've already introduced 10 to 15 cc's of material and its still going. I'll keep you guys posted! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 492 Registered: 6-2002 |
Brad - I do not know where you are located, but if there is a Factory Ferrari shop near by, or a respected independent, it would be worth it to give them $50 to do nothing but loosen the nuts. When someone speaks of hydraulics and multi-ton jacks applied to my Ferrari wheels, I reach for my revolver. There simply has to be a simpler explanation/solution. At this point, the most valuable tool I would look for is gray hair and experience. Jim S. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 216 Registered: 8-2002 |
Find a heavy equipment repair facility, someone that works on Cat scrapers etc, the huge yellow excavating equipment, they will have an impact wrench that will go to 1500+ lbs, which are used to remove the 7' wheels, I really doubt the truck repair impact was a true 800 lbs, most truck wheel bolts are tightented to 250-350, my street sweepers have a single super tire thats torqued to 400lbs and the 1" impacts struggle to remove these Forget the breaker bar you will injure your self or the car | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks for the suggestions. I worked on the left front wheel last night using heat, then dead blow impact. No success. James, your comment about reversed splines is extremely interesting. I've only had the car for a year and have no records on previous ownership other than to say it was never well cared for. I've been slowly fixing and restoring it with overall success but there is much to do. The only reason I don't think the splines could be reversed is due to the nut which has a stamped arrow, consistent with the rear which I have removed, left side standard thread. Frankly, at this point I am looking at two options. First is to drill a pinhole in a strategic part of the nut to induce penetrating lubricant. Based on how the nut is made, if I can force enough in, it actually should work from both ends of the "bolt" since the threaded stem is hollow. I agree James with the lever concept, "give me a lever big enough and I can move the world" but there are several limitations. Wheel rotation is one of them. I currently as a standard practice have someone stand on the brakes while I apply lever torque and I eventually rotate the wheel! I've already bent a 3/4" breaker bar in my 8' pipe. Only solution is to design a wheel hold down to stop rotation and a more beefy attachment to my socket, something substantial, welded with a 3/4" drive end. The next is good old hydraulics. Since were talking expensive parts no matter what, I am developing a possible steel platform to allow a pair of multiton jacks to apply paired rotational force on a tee handle attached to my special socket. The steel platform would in turn be mated to my wheel spoke pattern. Tough to fully explain at this point but the concept is to use the jacking force to fight the nut by placing the thrust into the wheel. My firm has jacks up to 10 and 20 tons, low throw so I suspect........ if somebody is going to win (and its a fight to the death), hydraulics should. Its a lot of work to make this thing assuming I'm not having a brain fart. Called Algar and made a preliminary appointment to go down. Mike, the service department head didn't seem to think they would have any problem quote "we do it all the time". I don't think I must have told him about the 800'lb impact wrench so I'll need to double check with him. If he still isn't concerned, then maybe they have a trick I'm not aware of. Last option is to grind but man do I not want to do that. Thanks for all the ideas and moral support. Keep the info coming and I'll keep you posted. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 230 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Brad...you seem to have multiple choices as for what to do. Who knows...maybe a hammer will do the trick. But I'm still skeptical if an 800lbs impact wrench didn't do it, and you tried that in both directions. Yeah, it was a wild idea to try and induce heat by doing heavy braking with the car...but I stated it's a "wild hair" of an idea. Who knows, it may or may not work. I would do the least destructive idea first and that's what James and James recommend. I would not want to ruin the wheel as choices for single-lug TRs is very limited and VERY expensive. Much cheaper to replace the wheel bolts then spend a minimum of $3,700 for aftermarket wheels. And then there are tires costs too if you change sizes from stock. I know because I've looked high and low. So pound away, and my hopes are with you Brad. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 981 Registered: 10-2002 |
James is right. Try a hammer. I do disagree about not using the one in the tool kit. That's what it's for. The dents in the hammer of my P4 were made by people such as John Surtees. Doesn't bother me... His guess about reversed hubs is also likely. Best Jim | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 490 Registered: 6-2002 |
Brad and Jeff - I am a bit skeptical about braking as a means of generating "focused" heat. Furthermore, braking will tend to tighten the nut. Let's look at plan B. Brad - has anyone ever worked on your suspension and possibly reversed the splines? Make sure. If you are certain that they are on the correct side, then the next question is how long is your lever arm? Forget the air gun. Don't trust an 800 foot-pound air gun at a truck stop. I have a 6 foot long pipe that I use. Stand on the sucker at the end and see if that works. Finally, Plan C. Remember that the tool kit was supplied with a hammer and wrench to strike. It is possible that hammering away will "jar loose" a frozen thread. You might consider heading down to Home Depot and buying a cheap heavy lead hammer (don't ruin the one in the tool kit). While at Home Depot, buy some greese to put on the threads for the next time. Jim S. | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well the weekend is just about here so its time to put some ideas to action. I'll try to archive the results for future use. Hopefully I won't be talking about a grinding wheel either. Jeff, you're right regarding the heat "reversal". I realize the threading I'm trying to expand is opposite of the part to be removed but it may be worth the try. I guess the good news is that I'm not overly concerned about my wheels since I plan on replacing them (maybe sooner than I thought). Do you think the brake action gets those wheel components hot enough to expand appreciably? Are you thinking the heat transfer is directly from the rotor to the splined shaft? | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 229 Registered: 10-2002 |
Using heat, I would worry about what effects it would have on the wheel, like paint blistering, etc. I don't think it would hurt anything else. Theoretically you want the wheel hot and the retaining-bolt cold. This way the wheel expands and the bolt contracts giving the most clearance, and the best conditions for removing. Here's a wild hair....try driving the car, get it up to some good speeds and hit the brakes several times, build up as much heat as possible. Then AS SOON AS POSSIBLE try and loosen the bolt. Since the wheel will expand to heat more than the bolt, it may be just enough to help out. It would take some HARD stops, you may toast the pads, or rotor a bit. But I think it's worth a try. Let us know how it goes. | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2003 |
I confirmed the thread rotation to make sure I wasn't tightening accidentally. Jim, you're correct, counterclockwise to loosen left, clockwise to loosen right. I just can't imagine someone overtorqueing to get this result. Has anybody ever had corrosion problems? What do you guys see as a problem with heat? If I end up cutting the nut I don't see what I'm going to loose by heating unless there is an impact on other components. Comments appreciated! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 487 Registered: 6-2002 |
Brad - check thread direction again. The way I remember it is "you put them on backwards." Thus, on the driver side, nuts tighten in standard way (with wrench on pointing somewhat towards the sky, pull the wrench towards the back of the car). On the passenger side, with wrench on pointing to the sky, pull towards the back of the car to tighten (opposite standard thread). Thus, with both front wheels, to loosen the nut, with wrench on pointing towards the sky, pull the wrench towards the front of the car. If you are doing this, then you got a problem. How's that for help. Jim S. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2002 |
Geez Brad...hard to believe that 1" drive at 800lbs torque couldn't remove it!!! On my car I had to use an 8 foot breaker bar, and have somebody sitting in the car holding the breaks on so I wouldn't spin the wheels. I thought mine were tight, but wow yours are "one" with the darn car! I'm sure you tried both directions with that big wrench just to be sure? I would not use heat except as a absolute last resort. If you must destroy the bolts to get the wheels off, you can get new ones on ebay from Gentry Lane for $275 to $350 each or so. Nobody hardly ever seems to bid on their stuff. I priced new from the dealer (Algar) and they said $650 each! I must concur with Mr. Badurski on grinding them off if no other course of action. Keep us posted. | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 164 Registered: 6-2001 |
Wheel nut torque should be 325 ft lb, used with grease or anti-seize. Sound like overtorque or rust. You may need to use a die grinder to cut the nut off. | ||
| Brad Smith (Smithbb)
New member Username: Smithbb Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have a '86 Testarossa, single lug. Purchased special torque wrench, socket kit. I can not get the front wheel nuts off to save my life! Loosened rear nuts, verified thread rotation left front standard thread, right front reverse thread. Tried the classic breaker bar, pipe extenstion, even jury rigged my hydraulic floor jack to apply load on lever. Finally took it into a TRUCK repair facility to use impact wrench. Used a 1" drive heavy duty gun at 800'lbs torque and it did not budge nut!!!! Does anybody have any tricks? Am I missing something? The nut threading configuration is almost impossible to apply heat. I'm past worrying about scaring the nut. I guess its the classic case of the simple things are always the worst. I have never had the front wheels off, bought the car used last July, no history on what has been done in the past. |