| Author |
Message |
ANGELO ALBANESE (Lbanez)
New member
Username: Lbanez
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 8:50 pm: | |
Hello Terry, not sure what model you have, but make sure it's not sitting on your lower cam belt sprocket, between the timimng belt.....that could hurt you big time.........Ang |
peter james moran (Pjm)
New member
Username: Pjm
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 8:01 pm: | |
Spend more time looking up top in the valve spring regions. If it were to be lodged there you have a real problem. If is not there or in the cylinder through the spark plug holes don't worry about it. If it is in the sump you should not have a problem. In hind site I was taught to shove rags in all of those holes before disassembly. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 243
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 11:12 pm: | |
Look for the item then just finish your job. Mechanics have been dropping things in these motors for years. They are rarely as careful as you. Look for the obvious places. Look to make sure parts are not trapped in springs in the head which could cause a failure. It is not likely to jam an oil hole. It is more likely to be on your garage floor. Oil returns are redundant. You can't screw up oil under pressure by a dropped nut or washer. I always work with a spark plug partly in the holes. Check them too if the plugs were out. Thats it springs and plug holes your only problem areas. Don't sweat it. |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 571
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
Was the intake off the engine? My 328 has this huge flat portion between the heads that catches all kinds of tools and nuts/washers that I accidentally drop. And with all the hoses in there, it is hard to see anything. I've had to 'troll' a magnet through there to find stuff. The nut/washer should take a particular trajectory that is roughly the direction of the stud it was on. It is hard to believe that both the nut and washer went down the holes.
I dropped a small socket on the engine of my 944T last time I had it apart. Took me an hour to find it wedged down near the bottom of an engine mount. It was like a ball going down through a pin ball machine.
BTW, I always stuff clean rags in open holes in motors be it spark plug holes or intake holes.
Good luck with it. |
Peter Cyr (Pete04222)
New member
Username: Pete04222
Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 8:22 am: | |
On most cars that I work on, it seems I always have parts leftover and I am scratching my head trying to figure where they go. On the Ferrari it is just the opposite, it seems like I am always missing parts I need to finish the job.
I think that the Ferrari engine bay is actually a black hole that sucks in tools and bolts. |
DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 136
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
Sounds better already. DJ |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 449
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 11:02 pm: | |
Ben,
If you can send the nuts and washers in an overnight FedEx letter, I can give you an account number to use. Will email if that can work. Thanks.
The scope is too cool of a tool, I would buy it anyway. I can think of tons of uses for this.
I thought about pulling the sump cover and searching for the nut and may do so if it does not turn up. I already fished a magnet into the bores and came up empty. I will also check each bore out with the scope. The buckets are in place so no way for the nut to foul a valve or spring. I really dont think there is any way the nut or washer can cause harm even if it does fall through an oil passage into the pan. |
Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 244
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 9:50 pm: | |
Terry I have a set of washers and nuts for cams if you need them. I custom ordered 100 hardend. I bought them for my rebuild but only used 40 of them. If you want them I will send them too you, you might as well use all new ones. Oh by the way If they fell down the oil return holes, which are very large, wouldnt it be cheaper to pull the oil pan then buy a 200$ tool? They would not get stuck in the return holes, they are big enough for almost a 10mm bolt, the cam nuts are M6 very small, they would fall straight down to the pan. |
DJParks (Djparks)
Junior Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 9:31 pm: | |
I have gone through the same thing as you Terry and it was inevitably a unique, one of a kind hard to get, brand specific piece. I went insane looking for it.
In your case I would make sure the cylinders were empty and plug the holes. Try to make sure the nut and washer isn't inside any other moving parts (like valve springs or in the valve seats.
Maybe a cylindrical magnet on the end of some semi-rigid plastic or rubber tubing and stick it down the oil return holes.
Reassemble engine and drive. If something bad happens at least you will have a DEFINITE reason to pull the engine. If nothing happens you saved yourself a lot of hard work.
I wish you all the luck on this one. DJ |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2656
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 6:41 pm: | |
Terry, I checked out the P-car site Mitchell posted and that's the same scope that I have (Pro Vision 100). I forgot myself and the price I first quoted was in Cdn $ (which converts roughly to what you paid). |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 445
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 1:47 pm: | |
Terry,
Sorry about the incident. That happened to me too. The nut was lannched and ricocheted off of at least one other body before it was silent. I spent hours looking for it on several occasions. Couldn't find it. I came to the conclusion Mark did and just replaced the nut and thereafter drove the car as normal. Months later I found the nut on a little shelf below the oil cooler. |
Ken Ghiringhelli (Kenny94945)
New member
Username: Kenny94945
Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 1:00 pm: | |
Here a wish for success.
It is just like surgery with no pressure of a loss of life....
You can do it. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 444
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:09 pm: | |
I ordered the borescope from Pelican parts.... it was only $178. Seems they may have the prices messed up on the different models, I included a note to them on it. I order from those guys a fair bit.... remember Im a P-car guy too 
Im not going to tear the engine apart. When the borescope arrives I will look long and hard for the nut and I'll keep an eye out when doing all the other assembly work (it is possible its not inside the engine and I just have not found its hiding place). I've thought about it alot, spoken with my mechanic buddies here locally (my dad who has an A&P license) and I really cant think of what harm it could cause.
I figure the worse it could do is partially block an oil passage, but there are enough oil returns from the head that I dont see how it could cause a problem even if it does jam in place on its way to the sump. If it does make it to the sump, I bet I'll eventually find it on the sump plug magnet. Otherwise it should just slosh around and I dont think it can cause any harm.
Anyone think I'm crazy and its likely to destroy something if it is in the engine?
Cant wait to get the borescope! I didnt know they were so cheap. What a cool toy... |
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 517
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 10:48 am: | |
$217 for the scope from Pelicanparts.com (Porsche guys, but ... right about now, you probably don't care)
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/autocat/load_page.cgi?page_number=1&bookmark=-0&model=DWKS&currsection=toolsG
|
Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member
Username: Tuttebenne
Post Number: 64
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 9:37 am: | |
This may sound stupid but to those who've tried it, its not.
If you are resigning yourself to the teardown, then duplicate the situation that launched the nut and washer. (This time, paint the washer and nut in dayglo.) When it starts to fly,watch where it goes. It most likely will follow the same trajectory as the original one. I you really want to be smart, plug the oil holes and internal crevices so you're not risking anything but your time. I've found lots of dropped items this way. Try it. What do you have to loose? |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 443
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 8:41 am: | |
Hmmmmmmmm That does sound like a most tempting option Mark. I wonder if eventually they would find their way to the magnetized sump plug?
Is there any way they can cause damage on their way to the sump? What are opinions on any chance of them fouling with a rod or the pump or getting sucked into the pump? Whats the worst case scenario?
I dont know what the oil passage ways are like that drain from the head to the sump and whether such a nut and washer would fall down to the sump easily. Could the sump cover be pulled and by chance they be found?
I found boroscopes here:
http://www.tooldesk.com/shop/borescope1.wml
I wonder if these can be bought at Sears or Norther Tool. I would love to pick one up today to have a better look around.
|
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 477
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
Here's a little less conservative opinion.
I would do 3 things. Stop worrying. Get a new nut and washer. Enjoy the summer.
A nut and washer lying in the sump are pretty harmless. They just sit there. The oil pickup is both a large diameter to keep velocity low and screened , so they can�t get sucked up even if they did get to the center section of the sump. Gravity will keep them on the bottom and out of trouble.
|
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 451
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 2:09 am: | |
I am sorry to hear that Terry, hope it turns out for the best. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2655
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:57 am: | |
Jeff, I must have read your mind or something...
|
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2654
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:56 am: | |
Terry, get yourself one of those fibre-optic scopes. At around $300, it isn't cheap, but it can certainly save you some headaches (and teardown costs) by poking it into ALL of the nooks-and-crannies of the cylinder head, which you may have missed with the magnet.
I dropped a small screw driver bit down in the "V" of the engine and found it with my scope. Only took a few minutes...
Hang in there dude and be ultra patient...  |
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 217
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:53 am: | |
Before Id go to that extent Id buy or rent a boroscope camera and check out all of your galleys to see if the bolts there, its probably in some crevace somewhere and when you move your car their it will be |
Manfred Heger (Mondi991)
New member
Username: Mondi991
Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:42 am: | |
Sorry Terry, I feel with you
Manfred from Germany |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 442
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:28 am: | |
Well, now I've done it. While removing the front bank intake cam, with the crank at TDC and the cam marks lined up I managed to screw up big time. I knew the cam was under tension as one valve was fully depressed and I was being careful removing the cap nuts. I did each one just a little bit at a time in a reverse head torque type sequence...
The last nut was just coming off.... BOING... in an instant the cap flew off, the nut and washer went flying and now I cannot find either of them. This happened so fast.... I thought I heard the sound of something falling in front of the engine but over 2 hours of searching everywhere has turned up nothing.
I searched everywhere inside the cylinder head using a magnet and mirror. I also fished the magnet into the combustion chambers in case it went down a spark plug hole. I searched everywhere in the engine bay and carefully searched the garage floor. Nada
At this point I can only conclude that Murphys law has screwed me again and the parts have fallen into an oil return passage. This would seem to necessitate an engine removal and teardown to retrieve. It appears my A/C upgrade and cam belt replacement will become a complete engine rebuild. I'll probably have to store the car until the fall and then rebuilt it over the winter next year.  Im PISSED, EMBARRASSED and FRUSTRATED. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |