| Author |
Message |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 67
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
Final update....
Cheapest source stateside was George Evans (http://www.evansauto.com/) for $130 plus shipping. I finally put it in last night...the holes for the studs are not the same location as the stock TDC sensor. I called him and he said that it is the same part, updated (second iteration update), and that he dremels the holes out so they fit on the cars.
So I did. I decided to take the 308 on a 375 mile test drive today to North Carolina and back. Worked great. :-)
-Matt |
Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member
Username: Kdross
Post Number: 335
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 2:01 pm: | |
Matt:
Try Algar. For some reason, their prices on parts has been extremely cheap lately. I have found them to be cheaper than most resellers.
Ken
|
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 65
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 1:27 pm: | |
Ken,
Brian was the first person I contacted, as he is traditionally my source of choice (whether it is FoLG, Symbolic, or now FerrariPartsExchange.com). He told me he sold the last one in his stock last week. He told me the FNA list price is $199. I called Ferrari of Washington here and they want like $222 for it (confirming my suspicion once again that FoW sells for 10% above retail/list price).
I'll probably order either from Ferrari UK or if someone else has a recommendation for this part....I wonder if it is the same part as is on a Fiat or Alfa or something?
-Matt |
Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member
Username: Kdross
Post Number: 334
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
Matt:
Call Brian Keegan at Ferrari Parts. He recently helped me with several small parts and saved me a lot of money. |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 11:06 pm: | |
I think I've determined the cause of my problems. I finally got the car to fail/stall in my driveway just idling, so that helped diagnosis.
I'll spare all the details of troubleshooting and get to the point (this will still probably be long).
There are three electromagnetic sensors that feed input to the Digiplex boxes. There are two TDC sensors and an engine speed sensor. The two TDC sensors are on the front part of the bellhousing, the engine speed sensor is on the rear of the bellhousing. All three are the same part (119052 on my car).
At the diagnostic socket in the engine compartment, you can do some simple checks of the two TDC sensors. If you check resistance from pin 3 (signal to ECU for TDC pickup cyl 1-4) to pin 9 (ground) you should get ~800-900 ohms whether the ignition is in the on or off position. Same resistance should be measured from pin 5 (signal to ECU for TDC pickup cyl 5-8) to pin 9 (ground). On my car, I registered these readings.
Unfortunately, there is no way to read the resistance across the engine speed sensor at the diagnostic socket. Fortunately, there is a connector very close to the diagnostic socket, next to the coils where you can get a reading. There are actually two connectors there....a large and a smaller one. The smaller connector, closer to the rear of the car, is where you can get measurements from the engine speed sensor. Since it is the same part, one can surmise it should read approximately the same. When the car is not hot, I get the same 800-900 ohms (red and red/black wire into that connector).
If I start the engine with the multimeter hooked up this way, the Fluke we were using automagically switched over to reading AC voltage. At idle, it started at about a 4V AC reading. As the car continued to warmup more and more, this gradually dropped over time until it hit 3.5V and the car died. The reading for resistance now was infinite. I disconnected the sensor itself to make sure this is not a connector issue and also got infinite resistance.
We left the multimeter hooked into the connector as the car cooled down, and it finally got a reading of 35 megaohms...and it went down, down, down, and finally settled back out at about 800 ohms. And then the car would start back up.
I hope this is interesting to some of you! I wanted to make sure to document this here....
I've heard the list price on this part is $199 from FNA, but I just checked the Ferrari UK site and see that price is about $121. Still higher than I expected. Any part source recommendations for this part? I can call Rutlands/etc, but maybe this is a generic Fiat part....?
-matt |
JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member
Username: John_308qv
Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 1:17 pm: | |
Matt, you are much more of an expert than I am. Thanks :-) |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
JPM,
I'm no expert so I welcome corrections here.
The Bosch K-Jet is a mechanical fuel injection system. There are few "energized" pieces of the equation, limited to the fuel pump, the cold start valve, and the warmup regulator. There may be some lambda feedback on a KE-Jet system like in the US cars, but mine is a Euro (no cats, no lambda/O2 sensor).
The fuel pump's ground goes from the fuel pump via a short wire down to a stud where the shelf that the pump and accumulator are mounted on is mounted. For the warmup regulator and cold start valve I can't say where their grounds are since I haven't studied that part of the system.
-Matt |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 58
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 12:31 pm: | |
Ctk,
I'm hoping I've isolated this problem to a spark problem, but I want to be sure. You're right, just b/c the fuel pump is running doesn't necessarily imply that it is pushing fuel through the system. I can check the return line.
However, before I do that, I wonder if I've already answered that question by noting that there is no spark when I crank the car when it is misbehaving.
What do you think?
-Matt |
JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member
Username: John_308qv
Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
Excuse this dumb question, but where are the grounds for the K-jetronic system located? This seems like this is something that should be checked on older cars. |
ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member
Username: Ctk
Post Number: 95
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:09 am: | |
The fuel shut-off engergising does not mean fuel is getting through. it just shows that circuit is working. Unless you can smell fuel flooding. A better check would be to take off the fuel return line and see if fuel flows. Poor fuel pressure causes poor performance.
|
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 57
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 4:55 am: | |
When the car is not misbehaving, if I hook the timing light up, there is spark registering as it cranks and as it runs. When the car is misbehaving, if I hook up the timing light, there is no spark as it cranks.
When the car is misbehaving, if I disconnect the fuel shut off valve on the fuel distributor, the fuel pump runs with the key in the on position, but the car will still not start upon cranking.
I think this conclusively points to spark.
I concur with Ken that this very likely could be a ground problem, but would a grounding problem be heat related?
-Matt |
ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member
Username: Ctk
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 1:09 am: | |
Matt,
I agree with Ken. Start by checking all the ground connections on the K-Jet are good. I think your problem is fuel related. If your fuse and relay on the fuel pump circuit are too hot to touch, they are overheating. Does the fuel pump 'buzz' loudly when hot? Try holding it after it stalls to check. Your symptoms are very much like those on a fuel-starved engine. If you have a fuel pressure tester, it is easy to check, if not, replace the fuel filter. There can be two filters or a single filter depending on model. There is also another in-tank fuel strainer that could be blocked but change the main filters first. If your car has been starting okay and driving okay and suddenly misbehaves, the problem can't be too serious, don't make too many unrecorded adjustments before troubleshooting as you don't want to throw the settings off by too much. When you have changed the filter, tap it and see the condition of the fuel coming out, it could be interesting. Hope this viewpoint is helpful. Filters should be changes annually especially if the car is not used frequently. |
Mark Foley (Sparky)
New member
Username: Sparky
Post Number: 45
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 12:54 am: | |
Matt:
It seems you have isolated the problem to the ignition system, but for the record, a friend of mine had similar symptoms in another car and it turned-out to be the fuel pump. It would heat-up from running and then shut down. After about an hour it would start up again. To no avail, many times he had the car checked by dealers and other mechanics. They were not able to diagnose the tempermental, heat sensitive problem.
Mark |
Ken Ross (Kdross)
Member
Username: Kdross
Post Number: 322
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 12:37 am: | |
Matt:
This is going to sound funny, but check that all of your grounds are clean and tight. I had a bad ground on my K-jetronic system that caused all kinds of problems. |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 5:01 pm: | |
OK, new data.
I took the car out today with the hopes/intentions of making it fail. It isn't as warm out today at all (maybe 60 degrees). I went out to a local park to drive out and back. Sure enough, after about 7-8 miles of driving, it missed once (but didn't stall). Then a minute later, I got a big huge backfire with a poof of black smoke (first time my car's ever backfired). Continued on for another 2-3 minutes and the car finally stalled.
Got out all the equipment as all the walkers/runners/bikers/other cars looked on. First thing I did was hook up the timing light, and lo and behold, I have no spark.
I'm curious to see how power gets to the ignition ECUs in the trunk, so I take off that cover and see two very separate connectors. I'm wondering if power is getting there. I disconnect/reconnect both connectors. No spark still. I disconnect the fuel safety shutoff valve and put the key in the on position and hear the pump running. More evidence it is spark related and not fuel related.
Open up the wiring manual. More runners/bikers/walkers look on. Look at the wiring to the diagnostic socket and determine that I should be able to see if power is getting to the ignition ECUs if I hook the voltmeter in to pins 7 and 9. I do so, put the key in the on position and DC voltage registers. Turn the key, it fires up.
Hmmm....
Now I need to find time to make it fail AGAIN and check voltage there at pins 7/9 in the diagnostic socket. It seems to be heat related, because it always takes 15-20 minutes and then the car is fine again (for a little while). I got home without incident (I was hoping it would fail as I pulled in my driveway so I could work with it in that condition in my driveway, but no such luck).
If anyone has any suggestions on how to troubleshoot from here, I am ALL ears.
Thanks,
-Matt
'85 Euro 308 GTS/QV |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 8:27 pm: | |
I just let the car idle for nearly an hour, hoping it would fail. I would have driven it to warm the fluids up faster, but it's dark now and the prospect of the car shutting down on me in the pitch dark wasn't attractive.
What I did determine (in addition to the fact that the waterpump is leaking) is that there is nothing coming out of the little tube coming off the accumulator. Not sure that completely rules out the accumulator, but it points me away from there.
Thinking out loud here, I think this is fuel related, not spark related. All three times I stalled were in high traffic areas so I couldn't hear everything very well, but I'm pretty sure that when I "stalled," that I first lost ALL power (but the car was still running/sputtering at least), and as soon as I pressed the clutch in the engine died. Would this not suggest that fuel supply ceased but there was some residual that let it run for another few seconds? Loss of spark would kill it outright.
Additionally, it is my understanding that signal/power from each "Electronic ignition control unit" (the two brain boxes in the trunk) independently feeds the two coils, each of which feeds spark to one bank. I know the car can run on one bank, rather smoothly I might add (rather slowly I might add). It seems unlikely to me that both banks would die.
I'm now looking at my wiring manual (Euro) and have found something curious. According to Figure 3, the coils and ignition boxes are fed power through fuses A and B which are the first two fuses in the left fuse box. Fuse A is labeled as the "Windscreen wiper - Windscreen washer - Direction indicator lights - Stop lights." It is possible that all three stalls occurred when I hit the brakes. It is also true that recently I lost high wiper speed (a short/problem in this same circuit?). It is also true that I rarely but occasionally have the turn signal go into double speed (usually means a burned bulb, but all mine are fine).
If anyone's reading, I apologize, but I'm just thinking out loud here. I suppose what I need to do is go out in the light of day, drive it till it fails, break out the timing light and go from there after seeing if I have spark when the problem occurs.
Thanks for listening.
-matt
PS-And now I just looked at Fig 2 (Fuel Injection System) and noticed that fuse A also feeds relay 90 (Start valve relay). I'm starting to convince myself to do what many have suggested (take the fuse box out and either replace it or clean it up/check it out. |
Robert Rothschild (Rothschild)
New member
Username: Rothschild
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 4:25 pm: | |
Matt, had the exact same issue with my 85 308QV (US Version) just after it came back from the shop for the 30k major (double ouch! 30k major+pads/rotors+4 new half shaft boots+a number of other little nit picky items+accumulator=$10,000 parts/labor).
After bringing it back in, the culprit was in fact the accumulator. Wish I had known about the VW version, that little beauty alone came to $650 plus freight (~$2,000 parts/labor installed). I was told that Ferrari NA and UK did not even have them in stock and had no idea when they would.
Anyhow, this completely solved the problem and the only issue I've encountered since is occasional warm/hot start issues which I believe may be related to the check valve allowing fuel to drain back into the tank rather than maintaining pressure on shutdown (need to check that out next). |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 53
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Steve,
That is one of my very next steps...I want to make it fail again, then take the timing light out and crank and see if it flashes.
Also, I want to figure out a way to see if any fuel is escaping from that accumulator....I'll have to put some type of hose on it and feed it into some mounted plastic container or something...not sure yet. I imagine that as soon as the fuel drips out of the accumulator it will dry up and disappear, so if I stall I won't see any fuel residue from the accumulator.
It'll be nice to get all this fixed at once (hopefully).
-Matt |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 1662
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:55 am: | |
Matt -- IMO you've got to first determine whether it's an ignition problem or an injection problem. When it "fails" it sounds like you should be able to confirm/deny ignition spark presence with just a timing light when cranking (even if it doesn't start) yes/no? |
Mark (Markg)
Member
Username: Markg
Post Number: 453
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
82 GTSi - also stalled several times, and had a relay clicking almost constantly and got hot. On occasion I would also geta loss of power and back-fire. ALL problems solved when my 'looks fine' fuse block was swapped out. |
stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member
Username: Balataboy
Post Number: 437
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:28 am: | |
PS,
If you decide to change the accumulator, buy it from a VW parts shop rather than from Ferrari. MUCH cheaper for the same Bosch part.
(part no. B 0 438 170 004) A little over $100. |
stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member
Username: Balataboy
Post Number: 436
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Hey Matt,
I'm sure you'll find your answer here & I'll be curious to hear what you discover.
Although I have not had your stalling problem, I do have the same starting issues as you; My 85 Euro requires same "foot-feed" to start (more so when warm) and the fuel pump relay clicks like mad until start-up and it get's very hot.
I too changed my accumulator and yes, the pipe coming off it with no hose attached is just that - a pipe with no hose attached.
Good luck - keep us posted. |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 52
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:17 am: | |
Thought I'd amplify here things I've done the past 5 years.
Last year the original fuel pump was getting weak and was replaced.
Several years ago I replaced the cold start injector and the checkvalve at the pump.
Several years ago I replaced the injectors.
About the only things I haven't touched in the fuel area is the accumulator and the warmup regulator (which was replaced many years ago by a previous owner).
-Matt
PS-Thanks for any help in advance. |
Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
Junior Member
Username: Mattboyd
Post Number: 51
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 11:00 pm: | |
In hopes of not getting a plethora of replies stating "check the archives," I searched the archives prior to posting this message. Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction here.
Today was the first time this year we've had fairly warm weather (83F). Not too hot... I drove the car to work, and on the way home, upon accelerating out from a stoplight, the car stalled. Recently, I've had some problems with the car sputtering on hard right turns, so I wondered if this was related. I had a theory that it was a loose connection (I'd already checked the fuse box but had no problem there, so I assumed perhaps the fuel pump area). After pulling off into a parking lot, I checked the connections at the fuel pump, and indeed the ground was loose and dirty. Cleaned it up and tightened it, but no joy.
Fiddled with other stuff for a while, and magically after about 20 minutes, the car fired up (this after I disconnected the safety shut-off valve at the fuel distributor....I then shut down, reconnected that connector, and it still started up). I suspected something funky with that connector.
After another 15-20 minutes of driving, car stalled again. I'm now suspecting something with the temperature. I fiddled around with connectors and such with no luck. Finally I just waited the 20 minutes it took last time and it fired up.
Died again 5 minutes later (less than one block from home). Walked home without touching the car, came back out 20 minutes later, car started up and I drove it into the garage.
Is it possible that it could be the accumulator? Most/all of the problems I've read here that potentially involve the accumulator have revolved around hot starting problems (which maybe I have, but I also have a STALLING problem). However, I have always, since I've owned the car, required some foot-feed to start the car....fuel pump relay click/click/click/click/click, and eventually it fires over....this is not associated with temperature...happens hot or cold.
Fuel pump relay and fuel pump fuse are hot...they were quite hot after the first stall today. I even switched both out with their brothers in the fuse/relay box. No help.
I've read that to check the accumulator, disconnect the braided line going back to the fuel tank. My car (85 Euro) has a pipe coming off it with no hose, and there's no place on the tank for a hose to have gone. Do the Euros just not have a hose going from the accumulator? I suppose next time I drive it (which I'm hesitant to do lest I get stranded) I can see if I notice any fuel dripping out of that pipe.
Any other insight would be appreciated.
Thanks,
-Matt
PS-I've got 5 years and 41,000 miles on my car since I bought it, and I haven't been "stranded" yet, although this was a close one....
|
|