| Author | Message | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1678 Registered: 1-2001 |
John S. -- this thread lists several Stabilant-22 sources: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/127520.html | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 425 Registered: 1-2002 |
Guys thanks for all the help once again. Stabilitant-22 was a life saver. Where do you guys buy it at? I have some left over that my father gave me but he doesnt remember where he picked it up. The local parts shops dont carry it. | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 457 Registered: 2-2001 |
I spent one whole day Stabilant -22'ng my entire 308; applying it to window switches helped speed them up a bit, and applying it to dimmer rheostat solved my dim dash light problem. Also applied it to each fuse, relay, bulb, all harnesses I could reach, battery terminals and the ignition modual harnesses. | ||
| Julian Pham (Julian_blk348)
Junior Member Username: Julian_blk348 Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2001 |
John, I'm delighted that it didn't cost you a thing to fix this problem... well except for maybe exhausting your 4-letter word vocabulary  Now you're making nervous about washing my engine  | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 600 Registered: 5-2001 |
John, I was pretty confidant that was the problem. I have heard a couple guys over on Ferrarilist that have made it an annual ritual to pull apart all the connectors, clean and reapply Stabilant 22. Probably overkill...but they have had no further problems. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 423 Registered: 1-2002 |
Well guys I think that I have found the problem. I took apart the whole wiring harness tonight when returning from work and sure as hell the pins going into the igntion module were shot to hell with corrosion. I took the advice people here gave me and went and picked up some Stabliant-22 along with the usual terminal cleaner. I cleaned those babies off fired up the beast and sure as hell for a 30 minute run she ran beautifully! Here is a picture of the plug and the actual ignition module, they are not the clearest but you can see the corrosion on the left pins.    Once again this board proves why it is so valuable to Ferrari owners because of all the help you can get! I thank you all for your help and hope this is the end of this problem. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 246 Registered: 8-2002 |
1) listen to REX "though sometimes they only give you systems that were affected by the malfunction, not the malfunction itself (i.e. crank trigger is usaully there, but usually that only means the engine stalled or it's not running while you check codes)." However, if you want to get to the crank sensors you lift the car like a sinkbug. You remove the lower access panals and you can easily reach and connect/disconnect the crank sensors. 2) 348's can have multiple failures or have a near failure turn into a failure as another part ages thereby giving you a headfake diagnosis. 3) you can isolate coilpak or coilenergizer by swapping leftside to right side. If problem moves it is one of these items. If not then you have a harnness problem. If you still have a problem then : 1) check for spark or fuel as in first proper fuel pressure then spark. 2) check spark corrdination by verifying cam sensor output 3)You can verify 1/4 fubar by pull 1/4 spark plugs and run your engine temporarily you will see the engine runs really nice on 4 un-impeded lungs. Timing belt is one belt. Jumpped tooth is not likely if 5/8 run pretty smooth. You can sometime verify static time through holes in cam cog covers depending on how car was set-up last. Personally I do not use these inaccruate marks and go right to the crank and cam journals. If you are really screwed you first very mechanicals I.E. static time even before spark or fuel. The why of verification of the basics is that these engines are very sensitive to slight crap. Slight problems are amplified by a series of other small fubars that add up to a not running or poorly running car. I have extra test parts for the ignition if you need to swap stuff out to verify. We can work something out. | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
Member Username: Sparta49 Post Number: 505 Registered: 3-2001 |
What I have done so far... 1.) Swore at car for a good ten minutes Was this in English or Italian ? if it was English try Italian it may not undertand when you are questioning it's mother's virtue in English | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 524 Registered: 11-2002 |
No need, this is rare to have a bad EPROM. It's easier to swap ECU's bank to bank to see if the problem moves. IME, I've never had a bad EPROM, not to say it hasn't happened, just not to me. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 523 Registered: 11-2002 |
This is what I'm talking about, When you say "ignition module, do you really mean the module, or the coil pack? Either way, I've seen this, and I'm sure as these cars age, we'll all see this sooner or later. The coil packs and igniters will not trigger a code, they're only told to fire, not monitored whether they did or not, hence no code. Take your time, sounds like you found your problem: pin connectors. Buy the AMP pin extraction tool from the dealer, best bargin in Ferrari special tools. Use this to dissasemble the suspect connector to fit a new pin or repair a damaged one. This reminds me of an F50 I flew to Denver to repair in '96. Coil pack for 1-6 power wire was making contact with one strand of wire intermitantly. Took a very long weekend to find this needle in the haystack. Brand new car, too. Best part was I got to personally deliver the car to the owner in Aspen, nice drive! Good luck John, I know you'll get it and it will stay repaired. You can always send me a personal email if you still want to chat on the phone. I'll be out of town this weekend though. Best regards, Rob | ||
| scott chivers (Spider_scott)
New member Username: Spider_scott Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2002 |
Guys incase any of you do get the common 1/4 or 5/8 light problem . Ive run my 348 spider for over a year with 5/8 exhaust ecu disconnected and didnt have a single problem. Ive only just replaced the ecu and reconnected it. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 217 Registered: 7-2002 |
John Sure sounds like the ignition is cutting out on 1 - 4 which would cause the cat to go into overtime and the 1 to 4 "too hot" cat sensor indicator to come on. Good luck | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 596 Registered: 5-2001 |
John, I think Rob is on to something here. I have a friend with a 94 348 spider with drivability problems (car would surge for no apparent reason, up and down). The mechanic had a hell of a time diagnosing it, then decided to go through all the ecu connectors and related ignition connectors. Pulled them apart, flushed them with contact cleaner and applied Stabilant 22 liquid contact enhancer. Car has run perfectly for the past year. | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 513 Registered: 9-2001 |
John, what you are pushing in on is it a plug or the wires? If a plug check both ends for uniformity of the pins and sockets. If wires could be an internally broken one or a cracked circuit board. Keep us informed | ||
| Bak-a-lack-a Bak-a-lacka-lacka ! (Chris_n_chicago)
Member Username: Chris_n_chicago Post Number: 404 Registered: 3-2002 |
put the stock ecu chips back in.... | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 422 Registered: 1-2002 |
Just reproduced the problem but this time at startup the car idled rough from the get go. I could correct it if I pushed on the wires leading into the 1-4 ignition module but it took a lot of effort. What do you guys thing module or harness problem? Any suggestion on how to figure it out? | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 421 Registered: 1-2002 |
Guys - Following master Rob's advice I started pulling on different connectors in the unit and low and behold on bank 1-4 when pulling on the ignition coil wire I was able to get the car to move from idling normally to idling rough. Granted I didnt get it to backfire, show the check engine lights, or anything but I really made it work to keep its RPMs plus the exhaust smell change drasticly to contain a much more rich smell. This is still preliminary work, I am going to run back down and try it again here just to verify that I can reproduce the problem. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 420 Registered: 1-2002 |
OK guys just finished the error code checking and all I get back from the car is error code 1121 on cylinders 1-4. This coresponds to a RPM Sensor which just so happens to be so tightly jammed up into the front of the engine bay that I cannot see it. I am wondering if some of the wiring may have come loose here? This seems really strange to me but from the looks of the maintanence manual there are two RPM sensors one for each engine bank. What are the possibilities of it being this sensor? Just curious before I start swapping parts around. | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 418 Registered: 1-2002 |
Guys thanks for all the input. Just summarize what I have tried so far and what has been done to my car here it is: Car: 1990 348ts with motoronic 2.7, no cats, Tubi, Powerchip ECUs, and new wheel bearing thanks to all Mr. Campens help! :P What I have done so far... 1.) Swore at car for a good ten minutes 2.) Removed Spark plug wires and cleaned coil, replaced plug wires with new wires. 3.) Pulled Spark plugs from bank 1-4 and they were wet indicating no spark but fuel was good. Bank 5-8 plugs looked great in so no problems there. 4.) Replaced Powerchip ECUs with OEM ECUs, no change in problem, put powerchip ECUs back in 5.) Am in the process of pulling the codes from the engine. The problem... 1.) Engine goes flat and starts backfiring from the exhaust....fireballs are cool but not this cool. The easiest way to descibe what happens is if anyone has had their car shutdown four cylinders and knows what that sounds like, imagine that with a bunch of popping and complaining from the bank that shut down. 2.) When the above occurs the cars power goes to zero, it would get out accellerated by me on a bike. 3.) I only get a check engine light, NO slow down light which also leads me to believe it is not a exhaust ECU, but I maybe mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong here but last year I talked with a shop guy at Lake Forrest Sports Cars and they told me that getting rid of the cats would make it possible for me to just "disconnect the damn exhaust ECUs". He said that by doing this the main ECU would detect a value of zero for the temperature of the cat and thus not cause anymore slowdown lights and bank shut downs. Rob - I was looking for your number to give you a call about this problem but cant find it, if you get it to me I would love to speak with you as I have another few questions about the 348 as well. If you would please email me your phone number at [email protected] or call me at 507-529-5753. Bob - I know man I knew the Ferrari gods would kill me for washing the fricking car!!! Its good to hear from you my friend and dont worry i will make it down this summer if my f**king car ever decides to really cooperate. But I guess when you consider I put 5000 miles on it in 3 months I have at least got to drive it. Everyone thanks for all the help, as always I appreciate your input a ton. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, Here's the deal with these 348's: First of all, don't guess, 80% of the time we create more work this way. With that said, I'd look at the usual suspects first: Thermocouple ecu's, clean ALL ground connections, ground circuit to Lambda sensors (even adding one clamped to the sensor and known ground), pin connectors. This takes an hour or so. Definately download the trouble codes, though sometimes they only give you systems that were affected by the malfunction, not the malfunction itself (i.e. crank trigger is usaully there, but usually that only means the engine stalled or it's not running while you check codes). Order of opperations: Codes Thermo ecu's Lambda, including looking at the outputs (verify proper sinusoidal trace, 0v - 1v) Pin connectors Pin test Sure you can also try "plug and chug" swapping coil packs and igniters, but IME don't spend too much time with that. Try pulling/tugging the harness to cause the misfire/bank shutdown. It really sounds exactly like the two dozen 348's I've diagnosed and repaired in the ninties: SSDD. Good luck. ps, no, I havn't found the pin connector tests yet. | ||
| Stanley DiGuiseppi (Standig)
Junior Member Username: Standig Post Number: 93 Registered: 5-2002 |
normally bacfire thru the intake indicates lean mix and backfire thru the exhaust indicates ignition. you might want to just pull the plugs and see if one is a different color. black means too much fuel or not enough spark. brite white or wet white might indicate fuel but no spark. the fact that the car goes flat makes me think one side of the engine goes out. maybe because the cat got hot on the computer shut it down. if the cat got hot it is probably due to a miss fire which brings you back to ignition. keep us posted on your findings | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 549 Registered: 10-2002 |
John, sounds like ignition related to me. After my car shorted in heavy rain, we disconnected the distributor wires and cleaned them thoroughly with electronic cleaner, and let it dry for 10-15 min. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea if you did that for all of your connections. Also, if it is your "Slow 1-4/5-8" that is coming on, try Jeff's suggestion of unplugging the exhaust ECU's. To my knowledge, the idle can be adjusted with a valve on the front of your block with a flat head and fine tuned (only slightly) at the rear of the engine (under the airbox)with a philips. (check the manual on the actual locations - as I'm not in front of my car right now, I can't tell you for sure, but I can take a digital photo this weekend). I was told that 1000-1100 rpm is pretty ideal. Can't say anything about your car running flat... is that a fuel related issue? Have you checked your fuel lines or replaced your fuel filters lately? hope this helps. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3292 Registered: 9-2001 |
don't you also have a modified chip in the car?? | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 510 Registered: 9-2001 |
Just goes to show you, never let a Ferrari get that dirty that you need to wash it If I remember right the cats are not on the car, so that rules out those. I would unplug everything related to ignition (one at a time) clean and reconnect and see what you have then. Good luck John try to make down by us some time this year | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 230 Registered: 12-2002 |
Just my opinion, but I'd disconnect the exhaust ECU's (just unplug them) and see what happens. Have you had the universal problem with these yet? | ||
| John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member Username: Jjstecher Post Number: 417 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ok guys here is another god damn problem with my car. I swear this car sometimes likes to provoke me! Here is the scenario: The previous three times I have had the car out I have had a problem with the engine falling flat on its face when moving from part throttle to either WOT or partially WOT. What would happen is as depressing the gas pedal at around 3000-4000 RPMs the engine would sort of go flat (sounds like a lawn mower) for a few seconds till I clutched it, reved it a few times, and then started off. By doing this the problem would go away. Well anyways saturday I have the car out and have no problems with it all day long. Monday I decided to wash the car and push it out of the garage and begin washing away, I did clean out the engine bay and scrub down the intake manifold pretty well but avoided the wiring as much as possible. Yesterday after I finish waxing the car i want to take a drive, I get out on the road and she is running good and we are about a 4 miles from my house when bam she starts backfiring and goes flat again. Mid you no check engine lights come on at this time or the whole time it runs flat. I clutch it, rev it, and everything is right again. So I keep driving and about 5 minutes later samething. I am now about 8 miles or so away from my house and I decide I am turning around or might not be making it how. The car starts to work fine again after I turn around until I am about 2 miles from my house then bam all hell breaks lose. The engine starts to backfire really severly at around 3000 RPMs on the highway even at part throttle, clutching and reving no longer saves it and for the first time the check engine 1-4 light comes on. I shut the car off while coasting, fire it back up and the problem still exist except the check engine light has gone off. 5 seconds later aftering limping the car up to 60mphs check engine light comes back on again, I shut the car off and coast again. I do this till I get home. Once back in the garage, I pull all spark plug wires and replace them with new ones, but the problem still exists and the idle is very rough. Now that I am done with the background info here are the current symptoms as the car sits in the garge. At startup the car idles really rough and after about a 20 second preiod the check engine 1-4 light come on. I am going to run the engine code debugger on the ECU tonight when I get home but dont have the codes to share yet. Being that the car is backfiring I am thinking I am having a problem with ignition, thus ruling out a fuel pump problem. I have been mulling over in my head the fact that this is probably either the ignition module or the coil pack thus they are the first area I am going to look at. I am going to start swapping modules from the 1-4 bank with the 5-8 bank trying to create the problem on the other side but before I start swapping I wanted to poll the group of experts and see if they have any insight as to what might be the problem. Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated. So what do all you guys out there think am I headed down the right path thinking this is ignition related or should I be looking else where? I am also a little suspicious that this all occured right after I washed the car for the first time this year and really cleaned the engine. |