| Author |
Message |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 588
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 10:33 am: | |
"Distilled or deionized water is a good idea"
Distilled water is an excellent idea.
Deionized water is not. When you deionize water, you take all the ions out, and the water becomes corrosive (at least until it get enough ions back into solution, then it returns to acting like distilled water). Deionized water will extract the ions the water needs from you engine. |
Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member
Username: Dougm
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 4:37 pm: | |
The car was imported new according to EPA/DOT papers. Originally it was sent to Norwoods by the previous owner to have a major service, due to no records of belt changes etc...Original quote was @$17k to do the service and replace some weak trans syncros. It eventually became a "while you're in there" service and the owner said make it like new. New valves, pistons, 2nd and 3rd gears etc... If it had any wear, it was replaced. There are some other charges in there like rebuild front shocks and rear brakes, Jet Hot the exhaust, new tires etc...However, there is 144 hours of labor from removal, rebuild, detail, assemble engine/trans then rebuild and sync carbs. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2189
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 2:28 pm: | |
Doug, why would a Boxer with only 22k miles need an engine rebuild ? Do you have confirmation that that is the car's true mileage. A lot of Boxers were brought into the USA when the market was hot in the late 1980s as they were selling for $250k and up at the time. Some of them were high mileage european daily driver cars that had new gauges put in them before coming to the USA to give them a new lease on life so to speak. Call Gerald Roush of the Ferrari Market Letter at 770.381.1993 and see if he has any mileage info on your car. I know when I was looking for a Boxer I called him on every car and a few came up with higher mileage in 1985 than was on the same car in 2002. |
Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member
Username: Dougm
Post Number: 277
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 12:40 pm: | |
I don't know the details because thankfully, the rebuild was done by the previous owner. I am simply enjoying the "new" engine/trans from the $35,000 Norwood receits. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 660
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
Rich,
18h is believable, especially since the down side of rushing is trashing a big $$ head...
Search the archives, there are a few descriptions of what it has taken to pull heads that have corroded onto the studs. |
rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 11:03 pm: | |
18hrs. of labor? What could they have been doing that whole time and still come out successful? Seems there would have been some time involved in like heating it or soaking it or god knows what but 18 hours of actually touching it without giving up? If it's true, god bless them! |
Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member
Username: Dougm
Post Number: 276
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 9:29 pm: | |
The 512 Boxer I just got had a complete engine rebuild by Norwoods 2 years ago. Looking at the receits that I got with the car, it shows that they separated the case halves due to corrosion. It was an extra 18 hours of labor. Tha car had @22,000 miles. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2182
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 6:30 pm: | |
Coachi, where do you place the sacrificial anode in a Boxer ? |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 1:41 pm: | |
There is a ton of real scientic info on most any subject on the internet. The following is a miniscual amount on the electrolysis issue. If more is needed simply do a search on: Automotive Cooling System Electrolysis. The jist of the following is that there is no substitute for service,and that includes driving them, and electrolysis will exist no matter what to varying degrees.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to Webster, Electrolysis is:
"The decomposition into ions of a chemical compound in solution by the action of an
electrical current passing through the solution."
The coolant circulating in the engine block is subjected to electrical current because
the engine block is the ground circuit for much of the electrical system. Over time the
coolant becomes a voltage producing solution. It then begins to eat away the metal it contacts.
Before computerized engine controls this was the major concern. Now however, the voltage produced
by the coolant also upsets the logic of the computer system that can produce driveablity problems.
Have your coolant checked periodically to prevent this problem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interior Climate Control Standards Committee moderated the panel.
Many questions concerning the use of coolant and the misinformation surrounding coolant
system management were posed and the panel reached consensus on several topics
including: *Total coolant/cooling system management is an issue that should be of concern
to both consumers and service technicians. *Coolant system maintenance and change intervals
are not being adhered to resulting in major problems for today's automotive engine cooling
systems. *Chemical stability of the engine coolant is extremely important to prevent its
breakdown. *Engine cooling systems that contain air, from either the lack of /improper
bleeding procedures/ not maintaining proper fill levels; incorrect coolant mixture; core sand
and other loose material being circulated in the coolant; each of these or a combination of
them can lead to a leaking heater core. These types of problems are generally the result of
erosion and/or corrosion and are often mistakenly thought to be caused by electrolysis. While
electrolysis can be the cause of heater core failures, actual cases are rare, contrary to recent
popular conjecture. Improper grounding of aftermarket electrical equipment, such as sound
systems, may result in cooling system component failures due to electrolysis. *Today there
are different coolant families and it is generally recommended that they not be mixed. For
best results, when adding new antifreeze/coolant to the cooling system, a mixture of 50%
coolant and 50% distilled water should be used. A refractometer is the best tool to use for
in-shop coolant testing. *Most OEM vehicle manufacturers do not approve of the use of recycled
coolant in their vehicles. Currently, there are no existing machines or processes certified to
meet the ASTM purity requirements for on-site recycled engine coolants for use in typical auto
repair shops. "Coolant system management should be a regular part of every engine cooling
system service procedure and maintenance activity," remarked Ward Atkinson, MACS Technical
Consultant. "We began the discussion on proper coolant management in this panel discussion
and we hope to keep the dialogue going in the industry to promote proper Total Coolant System
management procedures in every professional repair shop."
http://www.just-auto.com/press_releases_detail.asp?art=1177 |
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member
Username: Coachi
Post Number: 252
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Frank, that article in Forza had one error that caught my eye. Gioseppe (sp?)claims that oxygen molecules leave their hydrgoen brothers (as in H2O) and oxidize the surfaces that are in contact with it. Even though I have not practised chemistry since my days in graduate school, I know that you have to electrically hydrolize the water molecules to get oxygen from water, which simply does not happen in the cooling system in your car. In fact some oxygen dissolves in the water from the atmosphere, a small amount sitting in your cooling system after prolonged periods of time can be detremental. If water was being broken into oxygen and hydrogen, then you would have one big boom when the hydrogen is ignited. And bye bye engine...among other things. I just thought I would point that out. As for the sacrificial anodes, I have one in each ofmy ferraris and replace them once a year. They are cheap, I buy them from J C Whitney's online catalog. You should see the corrosion on those each year. |
rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 190
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
Jack, would you have the same recommendation for aluminum head, iron block cars? Many of us with such Italian cars run mainly water only and I've never had any trouble removing heads. Of course we drive the cars a lot and cooling system is usually drained and refilled at least once a year, more likely twice a year (once before winter when glycol is added to prevent freezing and then again in spring to get rid of that nasty stuff).
The cost isn't the issue of course - just that the more glycol you have, the hotter the car will run. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 651
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:05 pm: | |
Magnesium or Manganese is what the boiler & water heater sacrificial elements are made of. Seems like a 6-8" section off of the end of a water heater rod would do the job nicely. They need to go somewhere coolant is circulating, like the radiator. They also need to be removed before they're eaten away small enough to break up & clog something up. |
Paul Wehmer (Pwehmer)
Junior Member
Username: Pwehmer
Post Number: 141
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 4:59 pm: | |
Aluminum or magnesium pellets?
Magnesium would work since it is prefereably corroded before aluminum. |
William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member
Username: Countachxx
Post Number: 2393
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
there is a Co that advertises "Sacrificial Anodes" Seems these are little aluminum pellets you drop in your radiator & the acid eats them instead of your engine. Probably good for cars that sit a while |
Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member
Username: Owens84qv
Post Number: 763
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 3:09 pm: | |
The previous place that serviced my car occasionally, Ferrari of Washington, recommended the Mercedes brand coolant...a little pricy, but that cost is better than the alternative... |
Paul Wehmer (Pwehmer)
Junior Member
Username: Pwehmer
Post Number: 140
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 2:27 pm: | |
Ethylene glycol breaks down in the presence of air to form organic acids.
That is why you have to change it out.
No need to run more then 50:50. Distilled or deionized water is a good idea.
The presence of inhibitors slows this effect and helps to protect against pitting corrosion from the acid formation. Inhibitors eventually react away and must be replaced with new- i.e fresh antifreeze.
What is the "red stuff"??
Propylene glycol is being used some now. More friendly to the enviorment but I do not know if it to breaks down into acids. |
Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member
Username: Ferraristuff
Post Number: 187
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
Water as coolant is the worst that can happen to an alloy engine, that is what is actaully causing the corrosion.
It is really acting like an acid but it is a "simple" corrosion process.
Best to stick to a high quality coolant with the smallest water content possible, especially on somewhat older cars (ever tried to remove the aluminum cyl head from the aluminum block on an engine that has been run on water only as coolant? Forget it... won't separate anymore...).
But, best of all is indeed to drive it frequently!
YEAH!
:-D
Jack |
John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Member
Username: Johndelvac
Post Number: 335
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 2:03 pm: | |
In another post today, I mentioned that FOA had to undo things done by another guy in town. One of these things is that that guy talked me into changing my coolant from the green stuff to the red stuff. He told me about the coolant/aluminum acid thing and said the red stuff doesn't do that. Later I found out that Ferrari has said not to use the red stuff in any of their cars. I had FOA change me back to green using distilled water just to be safe. Needless to say I'm kinda' ticked at the other place for feeding me a line of crap that was good for a Jag, but not a Ferrari. Never again. You are right, Frank. It's better just to drive. |
"The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 4222
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 1:55 pm: | |
No problems here. I drive it everyday |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2175
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 1:52 pm: | |
I read the new issue of Forza last night and noted the article on how the coolant in a seldom driven aluminum engine car such as a Ferrari acts like an acid eating away at the engine from the inside out. It suggested that driving the car often (at least once a week) will prevent that from happening. It suggested that coolant in a garage queen be changed 1 or 2 times a year and with a driven car once every two years. They also tested the 575M F1 and liked everything about the car EXCEPT the F1 transmission. I think I agree. i would prefer the regular 6 speed as well. |