| Author | Message | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 474 Registered: 2-2001 |
A Goniometer is a tool used to properly measure angles. When putting an engine together, the mechanic can find the true TDC, and from there, the proper angle/position of pratically everything else. In addition, it allows the mechanic to determine the opening angles of the valves in reference to the TDC of one the cylinders (normally Cyl 1), and adjust the timing of the engine to perfection. There are several procedures outlined on the WSM that make use of this device. The bottom line, when replacing your belts, the marks provided to set the Camshafts position in reference to TDC of cyl.1 (based on the Flywheel markings) provide a pretty close determination of the right timing position. Nevertheless, to be really accurate, something like the Goniometer is required. When I did my major, several techs disagree on the need to use it since valve opening angles are set at the factory and very rarely change. Nevertheless, it does not hurt to do it if you have the opportunity. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 598 Registered: 4-2002 |
A goniometer is a device that determines whether you have the gonads to change your timing belts. | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2002 |
bob, can you post a picture of the tool that you made? | ||
| Carmine Nicoletta (Ncarmine)
Junior Member Username: Ncarmine Post Number: 86 Registered: 6-2002 |
What's a Goniometer? | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 472 Registered: 2-2001 |
Brian, I have done the job on my Testarossa before (check the links that Peter provided). It was a great experience and what do you know, it still is. My TR is running great and it has slowly become my daily driver. Although, I force myself to let it rest every now and then. Anyway, as far as removing the tanks and doing the Belts for a TR, I recently found out it is not only possible but actually done by some mechanics in my area. My car develop a water pump leak, and I had my mechanic take care of it (by the way, the most painful part of the Major service, IMHO). Normally, most people will tell you that it is an engine out job, since the pump seat behind the timing belts on the top & front of the engine. The mechanic pulled the tanks, rebuilt the pump, and while there, he fine tuned the timing with the Goniometer, which he claimed was a degree off in one bank and about 2 in the other. Total labor, 10 hours. A lift is probably the only thing you might need to be able to work comfortably on the engine through the space vacated by the tanks. I don't believe there is much you can do from the top. For a home job with no lift, I believe the way I approached the problem (engine out) is probably the easier and most rewarding approach. There are a lot of things that have to be done for a 30K, and been able to throroughly check it all by sight and touch is very important. Anyway, this is my experience with the TR, but some of it might applicable to a few other Ferrari models. Good luck! | ||
| Bob Perkins (Bobp4307)
New member Username: Bobp4307 Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2003 |
I have a 79 308 that had an engine fire hot enough to melt the timing gears and belts together. The engine had only 32k on it. I made a cam clamp to prevent the cams from moving.It's made of 2 pieces of 1 inch aluminum bar stock bolted together with 2 holes slighty undersize of the cam diameters. the hole centers obviously match the cams hole centers. Looks like a brake line flaring tool clamp. I lined the holes with one layer of 80 grit emery cloth. It worked really well.I was able to replace the timing gears, they needed 1/2 inch breaker bar to loosen. I had to loosen the bolts on the tensioner to finally be able to slide the belts on. The tensioner bearings felt good so I left them for now while work on other things. I'll replace them later. | ||
| Brian M (Theferrarikid)
New member Username: Theferrarikid Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dave that was the deal on my 944 to. I hired the dealear to adjust the tension beacause I could't afford the $600 tool. If it even was 600. They were probably hosing people on the price!! I always loved the 928 styling, but the engine looks like a mo to work on... Brian | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 644 Registered: 4-2002 |
Only 'real' engine I can lay claim to having done a belt swap on was my old Porker 928S2. Even though it was only single cam per bank it was a single belt that seems to go around one heck of a lot of pulleys and must be tension set with a deflection gauge, then rechecked at a later mileage (think I recall 1000 miles) | ||
| anthony s (Ants2au)
New member Username: Ants2au Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2003 |
here in australia, some mechanics just drop the fuel tanks, and do the belts whilst the engine is still in the car. I will be attempting this sometime next year on my 512tr. I would prefer this than removing the engine. Plus the 512 needs the engine to come out the top, not bottom. | ||
| Brian M (Theferrarikid)
New member Username: Theferrarikid Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2003 |
Tom, Ric apparently authored the timing belt thread on the cameragear.com reference earlier. Thanks Peter for the posts... | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2706 Registered: 12-2000 |
Here's the TR timing-belt (plus major service) thread: http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/43613.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/45099.html http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/70410.html?1024874480 | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2705 Registered: 12-2000 |
Frank, there have been people here who have done flat-12 timing belt jobs (Arnaldo Torres [sp?] is the first one which comes to my mind) at home. When you look at the engines, there's really no difference at all between a 12 and an 8 (I say this in respect to the design and engineering between the two. In fact, the first 308 borrowed the belts and other parts from the 365 Boxer - same part #'s...). Obviously, to do the job, the two are completely different (in situ with the 8, drop the engine out for a 12). | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3426 Registered: 9-2001 |
the posts are orginally from www.expensivecar.com which I am not sure if RIc or others orginally helped out with | ||
| Brian M (Theferrarikid)
New member Username: Theferrarikid Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hey Guys! Thanks for the great info. Tom and Mitchell Le those threads were just what I needed! I will be printing out ALL of the jobs mentioned in the cameragear.com reference. If they're are more sites posting descriptions like that for any 308 QV job I would love to know about it. I never knew about the cameragear site. Ric Rainbolts description was astounding in it's detail. The disclaimer reads like a surgical consent... proving this is not a job to be taken lightly. (I want to do this job because I can't stand leaving my baby with the only shop in town who will take this on. They are a non authorized dealer, and they have caused cosmetic flaws in the past. When putting new tires on last summer for inspection they damaged my rims so badly they had to REPAINT ALL FOUR. It was then I made the commitment to do ALL of my own service, no matter how big or small.) I know I can do this service with your help. My 944 cams wouldn't budge during the entire job, but it sounds like the 308 QV is a little touchy. I bought a 308 service manual from Nick, but it's still too technical for me. If anyone knows of a good collection of reference pictures for this job it would lend additional insight. THANK YOU ALL for the posts. TFK PS... how do you get that little yellow smile on your post... I would insert one here if I knew how! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2184 Registered: 9-2001 |
Changing the timing belt(s) yourself is fine if you have an early V8 Dino. But for a V12 or flat12 Ferrari the job is a little more difficult and best left for a pro IMHO. Also, it is wise to also change the tensioner bearings and cam seals at the same time in both a Dino or Ferrari. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 526 Registered: 11-2001 |
http://home.att.net/~ferrari/running7.htm Try that. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3420 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think Rob might host these now http://www.cameragear.com/ec/ofsm.htm | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 586 Registered: 4-2002 |
I do my 944 turbo myself as well - every year because it is a track car. This is more time consuming. I remove the gas tank on my 328 to make it easier. Like someone said, don't let the cams move on you. Mark them so you have a reference. 944 turbos cams don't move like the fronts on this might (at TDC). | ||
| Brian M (Theferrarikid)
New member Username: Theferrarikid Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gentlemen, I've searched the archives but everything I found was fragmented. PLEASE direct me to a full desciption (especially if in one thread)if you know of one. For a budding Fmechanic such as myself it would be the Holy Grail. Sometimes I search for things I can't describe properly enough to find. I read the "Forgive Me Enzo I Have Sinned" thread... That picture to me reinforces how talented and ballsy the membership is. I could not even begin to rebuild an engine... Tom the pictures are very helpful. Thanks! PS... During my searches on this subject It was always easier to find info on Dealer Charges and monies paid, as opposed to a list of technical details. I mistakenly thought most preferred to pay for this service. Thanks to everyone for your posts. TFK | ||
| Tom Francis (Tfrancis)
New member Username: Tfrancis Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2002 |
Brian, I just got mine done.. with new tensioners  . It was my first time and I had a friend help. I did all my research here. I thank Ric Rainbolt, Jeff Edison & Shad Shadowens... I couldn't have done it without them. Main thing to keep in mind is to lock down the cams!! One great tip I got was to remove the gas tank. The extra room you gain makes all the difference in time and frustration. Check out the pics.     | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 658 Registered: 5-2001 |
Brian, Next time before leading w/your chin, pls try searching the archives for the several detailed write-ups on this & other service procedures many of us have posted. | ||
| Dave (Parts_man_soda)
Junior Member Username: Parts_man_soda Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dont forget to change the tensioner bearings. New belts wont help if they go... | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 525 Registered: 11-2001 |
want to try something ballsy? Try rebuilding the engine. A timing belt change is a walk in the park for half the folks on this board. | ||
| Brian M (Theferrarikid)
New member Username: Theferrarikid Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2003 |
I once did it on a Porsche 944... But that's another story... that job took two days, and saved me 6 Franklins. BIG BUCKS @ the time. Has anyone done their own 308 QV? I have an 83 & I'm considering it. Please share your stories,sorrows, and triumphs on this ba**sy (Hint:Cool J) undertaking. |