| Author | Message | ||
| Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member Username: Andyilles Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2002 |
Vern.. your "TDC observation" is essentially correct regarding the cams holding those valves open at TDC, and being eager to get rid of that load. However, I stand by my comment that they will hold at TDC, with a little TLC. Think of it as trying to get the bra off a skittish lass..  Failing that, taped-up/padded vise grips will do the trick. But my point was that the primary concern is to keep everyting on the marks. Andy | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 794 Registered: 5-2001 |
Larry, I remove the deck lid. There just isn't enough room for me to squeeze under it to get at the fwd bank cam cover nuts, the bolt for the dipstick, & the compressor mounting nuts that are recessed into the top of the compressor mounting bracket. BTW, I STRONGLY recommend having at least a 2nd person helping remove/install the bonnett. It can be done by a strong single person, but you're risking chipping paint & bending hinges. Trick in getting the A/C out is to remove: 1) The a/c belt tensioner 2) The 3 large (17mm?) nuts on the TOP of the compressor mounting bracket, & pry out the 3 large rubber grommets below the nuts. (BTW, a ratchet w/a long handle & a shallow socket is very handy here, but not mandatory. Ther just isn't a lot of room above the compressor bracket.) At this point the 3 studs that stick up thru the bracket should be free enough so that the compressor will drop down & come free. 3) The A/C hoses are fastened to the fram with a metal strap. Just remove the bolt holding the strap. 4) The A/C hoses are long enough so that I just drape them along the top of the gas tank & dangle the compressor in the wheel well where it's more or less out of the way. Now it's easy to pull the compressor mounting bracket. Andy - I disagree with: "At TDC, the cams are "balanced" and tend to not rotate more than one belt tooth before a lobe taps a shim for resistance." At least on the QV, the front bank intake cam is on it's peak holding a pair of valves in cyl 4 (& I think cyl. 1 also) full open. It just loves to slip off peak & rotates about 45 degrees before it comes to a stop. I haven't managed a belt change without it coming off peak at least twice. 3x is par for the course. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 392 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't remove the tank. I do take out the compressor. I just dump the freon (I use 134a) and pull the compressor out. This gives me all of the room I need. Also the acorn nuts on the rear cam cover have not been a problem to remove. And if you use the match book trick under the cam bearings the cams do not move. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 634 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'll give it more of a try next time - no tank removal. | ||
| Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member Username: Andyilles Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2002 |
Apart from getting access to the cover nuts/bolts (Verell's right - don't need to remove tank, just the compressor), the only "trick" to changing the belts is to make absoulutely SURE you start with the crank at TDC.. the cam marks should also be lined up at that point... then make SURE nothing moves off the marks as you replace the belts. Since you do this with the tensioners out/loose, the cams may rotate with retensioning. But you'll see this, and just reloosen the tensioners, and "slip" the belts on the cams a notch or two so they line up with full tension. At TDC, the cams are "balanced" and tend to not rotate more than one belt tooth before a lobe taps a shim for resistance. It's a simple 1 or 2 time trial and error thing with the belt and tensioner back on. The important thing is that the crank stays at TDC at all times, which it normally will. PS. A lot of F cars have had cams set for timing different from "stock". If your crank is at TDC (remembering it's 2/1) and the cam marks are off, make new marks (scratch, white-out, etc) so you can set them back the same way. BTW.. if they ARE off, with the crank at TDC... check if BOTH intake and exhaust cams are "off" by the same. If they are, they were likely set that way on purpose. If they're different, one slipped. In that case, the safest move is back to the "stock" marks. (Lawrence.. yes, it's easier with the tank out, but why bother if you don't need to? It's always seemed to me it's easier to take the compressor off with it's bracket) Hope this helps, Andy | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 632 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well, Verell, I've done it twice now. It seems to me that it is very difficult to do without removing the tank. But I have heard of others doing it without the removal. Next time I do mine, I'll look harder. Do you separate the compressor from the braket that holds it or do you remove the bracket from the cover/block first? My memory says there was a bolt or nut I could not get at without moving compressor completely aside and that meant tank removal. Oh well, I'm eager to learn your procedure. I can get the tank out in a couple of hours. That really improves accessibility. Likewise in doing the cam covers, I remove the deck lid. Do you do that? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1372 Registered: 4-2002 |
BTW, if you decide to have a mechanic do it, shop around a little. I just had it done by a shop with lots of Fcar experience for $850 (plus parts), and that included some seals. I say 'plus parts', as I bought them myself - probably $250 all together. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 793 Registered: 5-2001 |
You don't need to remove the gas tank. Just hang the compressor on top of it. There's adequate access/working room. At worst you shift the compressor around a time or 2. If you think things are tight in the 308, you should try replacing the cam belt & tensioners on a Dodge Stealth! BTW, I'm working on an updated major service procedure, w/photos, but it's coming a tad slowly. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 630 Registered: 4-2002 |
I remove the gas tank and large coolant hose - aluminum piece. Then move compressor out of the way. Pile up wood planks or somthing to support the compressor. Watch for the shims when you remove compressor. I also remove rear rotor to get gas tank out but someone on this list has removed gas tank without removing rotor. | ||
| Paul Jeffery (Peajay)
Junior Member Username: Peajay Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2002 |
Steve Lots of common sense in your approach, I am just starting do the belt change on my 328, I am starting with the easy rear bank of course !! but one question I have looking at the forward bank, how the heck do you get the cam cover nuts off ?? those little buggers are tough enough on the rear bank but look almost impossible to reach on the forward end. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 391 Registered: 2-2001 |
I found that the most critical part comes with the actual belt removal and replacement. Once the cams are aligned and the match book cover is under all 4 cam bearings (#2 bearing) I would mark the old cam belt 3 places with whiteout ink.Then remove the tensioner pressure and remove the tensioner asm.Then pull the belt and overlay it on the new belt and then transfer the markings. Then just replace the belt (align marks) and hold in place on the pulleys using clothespins (spring type). Install tensioner asm and let spring take up slack. Check cam marks and you are done with 1 belt. Rotate engine by hand 2 crank turns and check timing marks. Should be dead nuts (also note , whiteout marks will not line up again so don't worry about this). Next do the same thing with the 2nd belt. And after all is done I just turn the engine by hand about 20 times and keep checking the cam alignments . Done and just put the nuts and bolts together. | ||
| Christopher L. Lawrenz (Ferraridude)
New member Username: Ferraridude Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2003 |
To everyone that responded; Thank you very much for all your insightfull feedback! I've got some serious thinking to do if I'm to take on this challenging task. Thanks, Chris. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2002 |
Along this line i've been wondering if/when someone is going to put together 'THE' package, ala digital photos of each step, good doc, in-car service vs. engine out, etc., etc. I'm thinking about doing a major service to my 328, but will be later this yr. at a minimum, and more likely sometime in first half of next year. If nothing online exists by then, maybe I could do it, with mucho help from experienced people on this board. I know there's some written/general procedures out there on the web, but I'm thinking something very detailed, so that no matter what the experience level, one could get on board. I think Terry's right about this not being rocket science, but you wanna make sure each step gets done correctly, in the right sequence. With the advent of the web, there's no reason a complete writeup on some of the more common procedures shouldn't be available to all of us. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 533 Registered: 4-2002 |
I am a pretty experience home mechanic, been wrenching on various old cars as a hobby for close to 20 years. I am by no means a pro.... I did mine recently and it was not quite as easy as I expected. Its not rocket science, but its not changing the plugs either. If you do decide to try it yourself, download and print ALL of the treads on the subject and MEMORIZE the procedures. There is TONS of material on this topic on this site and on the web. GEt all of it. Study it. Be able to recite it. Then proceed VERY slowly and ask lots of questions. If your not 100% positive of what to do next, post the question here before going forward. There are lots of very knowledgable and helpful folks here. Terry | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 390 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferraridude depending on you mechanical skills the job is quit simple. Most of it consist of diassembling and reassembling the various parts which if you go back to some of the older threads they can walk you through it. The high risk (I mean the $5-10K issue) is if you screw up the cam timing when you put the new belts on. You can min. the risk if you use some common tricks but this always exists. I just did mine and the cost was (new belts , tensioners , cam cover gaskets and water pump) $500. I have a bill from the last guy who did this 5 years ago and 12k miles for $1700 so it was both the challange and cost that took me to do it myself.You need to assess the risk and the cost | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 808 Registered: 5-2001 |
never done cam belts? Dude, it is way cheaper to drive your car to the shop, than flatbed it... :-) | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2001 |
If you have never replaced a cam belt before, this project is not for you. | ||
| Christopher L. Lawrenz (Ferraridude)
New member Username: Ferraridude Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks Matt, I guess by your reply, you wouldn't attempt it yourself. Thanks, Chris. | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4916 Registered: 8-2002 |
Take it to a shop. Where in So Cal are you? I am in Valenica. I can recommend Monaco Motors in Canoga Park. They just did mine. Matt | ||
| Christopher L. Lawrenz (Ferraridude)
New member Username: Ferraridude Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hello Ferrari Gurus! I've got a question: How difficult is it to replace the Cam Belts (and tensioners)on my F-car? I've never replaced a Cam Belt before and want to make sure can manage it before I get into something I shouldn't have. Thanks, Chris. |