| Author | Message | ||
| Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member Username: Gyrokeith Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have a friend who builds 350hp-500hp big block chevy street enginges. Daily drivers with aluminum heads and water pumps. He has been using 100% water in these for the 15 years I've known him. His water pumps last 75k miles and I have seen the inside of many of these engines. There was no noticeable difference in corrosion than similer engines I have seen with antifreeze added. I know some people feel excessive corrosion is a guarantee with straight water. I have looked and not seen this. I will use 20% antifreeze in all my street engines. But mostly for freeze protection. I drive my 308 often. I suppose if I had a "trailer queen" mentality and only drove a couple times a year I might drain the system. Better to keep those liquids away when not needed. The biggest mistake people seem to do that causes corrosion is the use of acetic acid based RTV. The stuff that smells like vinegar. When applied to bare aluminum or bare steel it will almost always cause rust/corrosion. Sometimes ruining the sealing surface. Use the generation 2 stuff. I hope this clarifies my opinions. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 652 Registered: 4-2002 |
I would never use 100% water in an engine as a coolant. Engine will be eaten from the inside out. | ||
| Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member Username: Andyilles Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2002 |
Keith... 100% water (though, granted, a better heat conductor) is a bad, bad, BAD idea!! You need antifreeze's anti-corrosive and water pump lubricating qualities. True, you can use some additive for that, but at 2-4x the price. Contrary to what some apparently believe, F cars are pretty decent at running cool enough.. so keep the antifreeze in. | ||
| Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member Username: Gyrokeith Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff.. To start out let's clarify a few facts. All autos are air-cooled. No cars on the road today are water-cooled. A modern engine requires an oil capable of lubricating and transfering heat away from the "friction" parts. Oil will deteriorate with age/use, actually becoming thinner and dirtier. Less heat soak capability and less lubricating. Change it often. BTW one of the inherent problems with synthetic oil is it's poor heat soak properties. It WILL NOT carry away as much heat as a dinosaur based product. I use a mixture of both in my vehicles and have had no problems. Nikasil does NOT require a special oil. You'll find many lawn mower engines use such a coating and there is no such recomendation , and they don't have the luxury of water jackets to keep engine temps uniform. The water "cooling" system is used to efficiently carry engine heat away from the block/heads and transfer it to the water/air exchanger (radiator). The water jackets also keep the entire engine temp uniform for life/performance/emissions. Every few years it should be renewed. I tend to use 20% ethylene glycol and 80% water. Plain water is a better heat soaker than the mix, but one should still think about freezing in the winter. Some people swear by 100% water. Not a bad idea in above freezing weather. Gear oil usually has sulfur added to stabilize the viscosity. I think even the synthetics use sulfur. I have personnaly seen 100k miles cars driven harder than most Ferrari's with original gear oil that was still working well. I still feel as though one should change gear oil more often than that. After all, Ferrari's are somewhat expensive to fix. Gear oil is cheaper. I use Red Line gear oil in all my cars/trucks/aircraft/boats. I'm not gonna touch that timing belt thing with a ten foot pole! My 308 has 7k and 5 years on the belts. There is no need to change them now. Maybe in the fall when I replace the clutch... | ||
| Russ Gould (Russ)
New member Username: Russ Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ferrari says to use 10W50 Agip in the 308s but I have yet to find a shop that uses that oil. I had to have Ron Tonkin special order it for me when I wanted to check the effect on oil pressure. Most go with 1040 in a common brand. Or for arduous driving, maybe 2050. The question implied in this thread is do we have to follow the Ferrari user's manual religiously, Ferraris being some other-worldly mysterious machines? No, they are made of metal, the same metals used by many other manufacturers. Nikasil is not unique to Ferrari. Ti aint common but Ferrari didn't invent it...and con rods don't drive lubricant choice or service interval. I believe that Mobil, Shell, Castrol and the others know far more about oils than Ferrari does. In fact, while visiting the Ferrari F1 pits during qualifying in France a couple of years back, I had a long conversation with a SHELL technical guy who took care of Ferrari's lubricant analysis and management. I am comfortable relying on their expertise. In this same vein, I am curious about belt changes. Has anyone actually collected any data on belt life, wear etc? I would like to see some sort of lab analysis on belt condition after x miles and even better some destructive testing. Has anyone taken a good look at a set of used belts at 15000 miles? I have to believe that a lot depends on how hard the car is driven, and also just age. The ozone in the air attacks rubber. Maybe an engine could be run without pistons on a jig until the belts actually fail. Any ideas or anecdotes | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1840 Registered: 1-2001 |
Thanks for the clarification jeff (but that's not an "OM"  ) -- IMO if you changed your gear oil every 2 years (and weren't reaching the 15K mile interval limit) you'd be leading a very pure existence, and even stretching to 3 years wouldn't be too sinful (assuming it's not a total GQ). I'm the same as most of the other guys -- roughly every ~2 years on everything except engine oil. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 251 Registered: 8-2002 |
Steve, Its in the Owners Warranty and Service Book for 8cyl cars 1986 pg 10 "The oil in the gear box and differential should be changed every 15,000 Miles or at least once a year" | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 637 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mercedes has used Nikasil coating in their engines for years. They did not recommend synthetic oil in them years ago when synthetics were readily available. They, however, use synthetic now. I tend to agree with Russ and have followed that course of action for years with never any trouble. Just recently got into an argument on a Mercedes list about antifreeze. Seems they think their cars will dissolve into a blob unless you used the $12 Mercedes antifreeze in it. They don't like to hear me spouting about using the cheap 'green stuff' for 23 years with nary a problem. Just change it when you're supposed to change it. | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
Junior Member Username: Billh Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nikasil is a hard coating process of aluminum cylinder liners. most ferraris use these if I am correct. the only different design is the f50 which uses a cast iron block! but that is a special case as the engine is a stressed chassis component. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1838 Registered: 1-2001 |
jeff -- Which OM states to change the "transfer/diff gear oil" once a year? (Do you have the XXX/YY number? -- usually inside the back cover or on the last page). | ||
| Craig Nelson (Monza456)
New member Username: Monza456 Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2003 |
Russ, I hope no owners of newer ferraris are listening to what you say. Ferrari's 95 and newer have Nikasil coated steel liners or aluminum liners that require synthetic oil. Also 355's, 360's and f-50's use oil to cool the cylinder heads (more than water) and synthetic oil can handle the heat much better. Also I thought that the titanium rods in all 8 cyl. and most 12 cyl cars since 95 would be concidered exotic. | ||
| Russ Gould (Russ)
New member Username: Russ Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ferrari doesn't use any unique metals in their engines or transmissions (well OK, aluminum but that's not uncommon). Thus you can go with the recommendations of the fluid mfgs. Most say six months or 5,000 miles for engines. The oil gets acidic and starts to eat your engine after it gets old (the additives wear out). But I think the six months assumes frequent short stints of driving, which is very bad for the engine as the oil picks up water and gasoline and never gets hot enough to boil it off. So if you drove it hard once a month, that may allow you to stretch the interval, a year works for me. And you don't have to change the filter each time, although most do. The workshop manual I have says you can go 10,000 miles on a filter. Synthetic oil lasts longer. Given the price of an oil change (if you don't do it yourself), synthetic makes sense. Same logic with antifreeze...get the long life stuff. Gear oil doesn't pick up combustion products and water like engine oil and lasts a lot longer. Personal opinion is you could get away with 15,000 miles like a lot of other vehicles on gear oil..provided it does not leak! What does make Ferraris different is the price of an overhaul, so better be safe than sorry. If you do try to do it yourself, remember CAMBIO means gearbox and MOTORE is engine. | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 799 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jeff, I'm sure others will add thier own advice, but I'm with David that I change my engine oil about every 4 months. Other fluids such as coolant and trans fluid are every 2 years. Brake fluid is every year to year and a half, depending upon use. Check all of the fluids regularly to ensure they are in good health. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 862 Registered: 5-2001 |
I drive sufficiently that I change oil/filter based on mileage (3 to 4 k miles) which is around 4-5 months. The other fluids get changed about 1.5 to 2 years based on mileage since I can put 15k miles on in that time and get all the other services done (seals, valve adjust, belts, tensioners). If you don't drive it that much, changing the fluids once per year seems entirely reasonable, and not a difficult proposition to do yourself. If you have good storage conditions (heated, dry garage) I would think every other year would be fine; in other words, not abusive. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 250 Registered: 8-2002 |
The OM states to flush coolant, transfer/diff gear oil, brake fluid and motor oil at least once a year, since many Ferraris are not driven much I was curious if owners follow these recommendations |