| Author | Message | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Have you noticed Arnaldo, that since getting my car started last thursday, I haven't posted a single comment on this site until today? This has been my first opportunity to get back on the computer since then. Hint... Details in my following progress report... | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Project number one is completed! I worked all day Friday putting it all together again. After less than $500.00 in parts, some work, and a lot of learning, my Testarossa is driveable again, and most importantly, all leaks are gone! Peter, I do not know how did you manage to not been able to drive your car for so long. I could not wait to finish putting it all together to go for a test drive. I decided to put the major for later, but not too much later, I just could not resist having all the parts and not been able to drive the car again. I need to build up my psychic so that I can have the car in pieces again for several weeks for the major. What did I learned from this experience? Well, I learned that there a lot of very helpful people out there willing to spend a few minutes to share comments, ideas, and experience with new owners like myself in the interest of the sport and positive Ferrari ownership. To all of you, specially Peter and Steve, thank you, thank you very much! I'll open a new thread of discussion whenever I decide to start the major. Signing off now, Arnaldo Torres. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Yes, I thought hammering it in was not the right way to go. I will try the vise alternative first since I can try it at home, otherwise I'll pursue the Hydraulic press option. Thanks. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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You can put them in a vise and press them together. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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I used a hydraulic press at where I work to remove/install the T/O bearing. Hammering off a bearing is okay, this will damage it, but you're replacing it anyways so who cares if its banged? But to install, I strongly suggest it be pressed on. This can be done at pretty much any well-equiped garage, or a machine shop. Brake cleaner is what I used mostly (for all the small parts). This stuff is pretty strong, the directions on the can stressed not to use it on rubber or plastic parts (they're right!). Paint thinner/varsol/acetone are other solvents I used where applicable (or what ever was closer to reach on my cluttered workbench). You're right, alot of care and attention went into this project of mine. These last couple of days have been very tense for me, I'm like an expecting father! | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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I decided not to mess with that part of the housing anymore since it is not coming out easily and I do not think is a bearing that needs to be replaced that often anyway. I got my new thrust bearing yesterday and I proceeded to take the old one out of the thrust bearing supporting bush. I used a Dead blow hammer and the parts came out easily after a few hard blows, no damage to any component. My question is, how do I put the new Thrust bearing onto the supporting bush? Should I follow the reverse procedure with the hammer? or is there a better, safer, way to do this? Peter, what did you use to clean all your parts?, everything looks so clean and neat on your pictures. By the way, Congratulations on getting ready to fire your car once more! It sure looks like a lot of love and care went into it. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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I never took mine off, but that whole flange could be stuck on with sealant. You'll have to carefully pry it up along the edge of the flange. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Does anyone know how to remove the Clutch Shaft Sleeve (P.M. item 17 Table 28, it is labeled "Bush Supporting Flange" in the P.M.) so that I can replace the bearing (item 14 in P.M. Table 28) behind it? I removed the nuts and washers but the part still feels solidly attached to the Clutch Housing, but I do not see any other point of attachment per P.M. Thanks. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Steve, I just let you a question in the "Sleepy Testarossa Speedometer" discussion regarding bending the wrench that you recommended for extracting the speedometer sending unit. Caribe. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Steve, got the document, Thanks. He did not mentioned the AC stuff at all and I was wandering if it would be possible to remove the AC compressor from the engine to leave it attached to the car so that I do not have to get the Freon out and AC lines disconnected. Herbert, it is a big job, and I probably do not have as much experience as I should to tackle it on my own. Nevertheless, the car is 11 years old, 15K miles, and it still have the original timing belts. I think this might be a good opportunity to do this job, and I am developing and exploring multiple resources to gain insight into the work ahead. I have a friend that is going to help me get things done, and he does have quite a bit of experience with other cars (this would be his first Ferrari though). I am hoping that between the WSM, PM, my friend, the little I know, information that I have gather so far in forums like this, and some of you out there that would not mind me bouncing ideas of, I can get this done correctly. I am still thinking about the whole thing anyway, and I appreciate you bringing in some sense into this. Caribe. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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I think you are going a little overboard when you started with a minor oil leak. If your car was doing Ok except for the leak then why do all this other probably unnecessary stuff unless you just want to. At what risk are you going to go to with the possibility of human error and inexperience? Just something to think about. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Caribe -- (Not to put Peter out of business, but) circa June '99 there was some discussion on the FList that T.Rutlands had a repro 308 valve shim tool for ~$45 (although I don't know if that's just the depresser or the depresser plus the holder -- nor if a TR would need something different) -- maybe worth a call first. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Steve, I will love to have a copy of that write-up, please e-mail me a copy. Thanks. Peter, thanks for your offer. Let me know what it will take a hold of one of those tools. Just to recap, on the Tensioner Bearings issue, Do I need to get just the bearings, or the whole sub-assembly which contains a spring (springs always concern me)? Caribe. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Hmmm... I don't mean to sound picky here, but this started as you were trying to solve a small oil leak and now you're doing a full engine rebuild. Sounds familiar J It was I who made that valve depressor tool for my engine. I put my blacksmithing skills to work, simply using a ¼" thick piece of 1" wide flat bar, rolled and grounded. I could make one for you if you want. You shouldn't need to do anything to the cams, just a good cleaning in parts cleaner to clear out the oil passageways. Measure the lobe's height for any wear (though I'd doubt it). | ||
| billy zissis (89tr)
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Steve, can you e-mail me a copy of that DIY major service, dropping the engine. Would love to have it. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Caribe -- Amianthus = Asbestos (I think) so it really doesn't matter which you get since you're not a pro working with the stuff every day. Ric Rainbolt did a nice write-up on dropping the TR powerplant (DIY style) -- if you don't have it, let me know, and I'll email a copy. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Yes Peter, those sandwich bags are excellent. They are actually the perfect size to fit over the Air Intake ducts to prevent dust and debry from falling it. Thanks for the advise on the silicone and the clarification on the different pastes. I am wandering that if this components already come with the Clutch Kit, if it wouldn't be a better choice to get a Clutch Kit and only replace the bearings for now, and wait till the clutch needs replacement before exchanging it for the new one. I am going to try to measure the amount of surface left on those clutch plates (if I can find the specifications for it) to see if I am going to have to replace them soon anyway. The more I look at it the more I am getting convinced that perhaps I should just pull the engine out and exchange the timing belts and adjust the valves. I am going to get prices for all the parts to see if it's feasible at this time, but it sure looks like a possible course of action. I noticed that I might be able to use a Motorcycle Jack to support the engine and subframe, and pull it out the back once I lift the car enough to clear the chassis at the rear. The Jack supports 1500 Lbs. Does anybody know if the engine and the entire subframe without wheels/tires weights less than that. I am assuming it does, specially know that the clutch housing and exhaust are out. I need to measure the clearances well, but I think this is a possibility. I am considering purchasing a digital camera so that I can share my progress with you guys, and perhaps get some feedback on the various steps. Will see. So far, these are the components I think I need: 1. Thrust Bearing subassembly. (items 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 28 in P.M. Table 28). 2. Gearbox Sealing rings. (items 10, 50 in P.M. Table 28). 3. Pilot Bearing (item 14 in P.M. Table 28). 4. Gearbox oil (75W 90) for which I am considering Mobil-1 Synthetic. 5. DOT 4 Brake fluid for clutch and brake system. 6. Permatex Black Silicone for gasket builds. If I decide to proceed with the Major service, I will need at least the following components: 1. Timing belts (2). 2. Tensioner Bearings (is it just the bearing, item 42 P.M. Table 5, or the entire subassembly depicted in this table. 3. Valve Shims (48 or so). (Item 2 P.M. Table 6) 4. Cylinder head cover gaskets (item 43 in P.M. Table 4). The P.M. specifies two types, with or without Amianthus. Does anybody knows what is Amianthus? Which one should I get? 5. Valve Adjustment tool. Does anybody knows price? I saw somebody here once show a home grown tool, I need to find it. 6. Alternator belt. 7. AC Compressor belt. 8. Water pump rebuilt kit. 9. Secondary Air pump belt. 10. What about the cams? Anything there that I should be concerned about? replace? 11. How about hoses? are any that are a must to replace? or should I only replace what needs replacement? This is getting big, I better get prices before moving too far ahead. Anyway, it will have to be done soon so I might as well start a serious research on this topic. Thanks for the feedback guys, Caribe. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Arnaldo, keeping all of those parts in bags is an excellent idea, I did that during my rebuild and I have not forgotten, or lost a part. That silver paste is anti-seize, I use it at work and is very effective. Although not as a lubricant (its viscous, so won't slide/slip/spin easily). It is to be used on fastening devices (when they are dissimilar metals, or when the same like stainless steel or titanium, which cold-weld when tightened without this stuff), or when two objects with very close tolerances are connected (like the gear on the spline of the shaft). That red paste is the lubricant and is included with the clutch kit (at least with mine, AP's own brand/type). Don't use too much! A thin film is enough, or else it'll spin-off and coat parts that aren't meant to be coated with grease (hint)! The thrust bearing can/should be changed, as well as the little pilot bearing (in the end of the crank-shaft, for the output shaft). This should be in the clutch kit. Yes, definitely replace all seals (rear-main, output shaft, etc...) When applying silicone paste to these parts, use it sparingly, just like the red grease. I used Permatex Black on my engine and used ALMOST one tube for the entire engine. You only need a thin film on the mating surfaces, otherwise the excess just oozes out. Not a problem on the outside which you can wipe away, but the chunks on the inside... which can flake off and mix with the oil... and build-up in oil passageways... After reading through the clutch change on expensivecar.com, the author just lined up the clutch-disc by eye and bolted down the pressure-plate. I did that and everything bolted up fine for me (did not need a sledgehammer to drive home the shaft/bellhousing). Check the size, but the shaft on my car is 1¼" X 10 Teeth spline, the same as some Fords (although, I don't know if it has the same size pilot bearing ID).   | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Well, I just took the whole clutch housing apart and the leak is coming from between the Thrust Bearing and the clutch shaft. I disassembled the Thrust Bearing and the components look a little different to those in the Parts Manual (table 28). Do I need to get only the sealing rings or the whole Thrust Bearing assembly? Should I replace the other Bearing (item 14 in PM table 28) too? If I disassemble the clutch bell housing I will need the alingment tool, does anybody know how much? Is their a generic version of the same? Steve, you were right, the gearbox oil has a very peculiar smell. I noticed it when I completely pulled out the clutch housing and drained the oil. The "red" paste I mentioned seems to have been applied to the shaft along its entire length since everything seems to have a reddish coloration when looking into the Clutch bell housing. I which the WSM were more specific about the products it ask you to use to get things done. Bill, you are probably right about the greyish/silver paste, and perhaps both pastes serve the same purpose and they happen to be two different brands or something (I do not remember the mechanic using any red paste). Do this make sense? Besides the items mentioned above, I am also going to replace the gearbox sealing rings (items 10 & 50 table 28 PM). I noticed there was some kind of silicon paste around these rings, Any recommendations for a silicone sealant for this step? This is fun! I just hope I can put it all back together again, and bleed properly the hydraulic system. I have been using sandwich bags to group related (per component) bolts, washers, and nuts. I label the bags with masking tape so that I know to which component they belong to. I have about 7 or 8 bags so far, a lot of screws and nuts to remove to get this far. Seems like good practice for the Major which I am hoping I can also tackle myself. Thanks, Arnaldo Torres. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Caribe, I'm guessing on the two type of paste you reference but the red paste may be a high temperature silicone and the silver/grey past may be anti-seize compound. Bill | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Since I have stripped out everything in the back of the car (rear bumper, exhaust, heat shield, air box) to take a closer look at this proplem, I am going to go ahead and open the clutch housing to know for sure what is going on. Does anybody know what parts I should have available? The WSM mentiones a couple of O-Rings which I am going to call Nick to get. It also mentions the application of a "red" paste as part of the procedure of putting it all together. Does anybody knows what this "red" paste is supposed to be. Also, I took a look once at my mechanic while he was applying a Greyish/Silver paste to the end of the gearbox shaft, does anybody knows what this is? I think is some type of fancy grease but I am not sure. Anything else I might be forgetting? Thanks. | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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I'm taking my 348 in next week for the same issue. It's going to cost me about $1600! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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FYI, the clutch draws fluid from a higher point out of reservoir than the brake. So if the clutch slave cylinder leaks fluid below that point you will lose the clutch but not the brakes. I had that happen to me in my 1986 TR and had to drive over 175 miles home with no clutch. I had to shift while blipping the throttle going from 1st to 5th. Not fun. Get it fixed as soon as you call. It doesn't cost much. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Thanks guys! I guess my baby is going to the shop. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Caribe -- driving your TR (if it is the clutch slave cylinder leaking) involves the assumption of risk so I'm very reluctant to give advice. If you mean can you just ignore it and drive regularly -- no IMHO (I would hope that the system is designed in such that any clutch fluid failure allowing the maximum fluid loss would never also cause a brake failure, but I don't know this for sure). Depending on the discharge rate and conditions of discharge, I might risk driving it to the shop (home) after topping up, but BillyZ is right -- eventually you will be stranded (maybe even if you keep the reservoir filled since the leak is only allowing fluid out now, but if it ever also lets air in, you're toast). Not quite as serious as a leak at a brake caliper, but still one of those TR/F problems that just can't be neglected IMHO (unlike some minor engine oil or gearbox oil weeping). | ||
| billy zissis (89tr)
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If it is the clutch slave cylinder you really should not be driving. You can but always keep an eye out on the reservoir because if air gets in therfe you are screwed. You will have no pedal and will be stranded. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Steve, yes, it does not have any particular smell that I can sense. If it is the clutch slave cylinder leaking, could the car be driven like this? Thanks once more for your help guys! | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Caribe -- Frankly, brake/clutch fluid would make more sense (but I'm getting wary of making "no see" diagnoses). My (hasty) review of the TR gearbox cross-section didn't seem to show any reasonable failure path which could allow gearbox oil into the inside of the clutch plate/disc area � whereas, that's the exact location of the clutch slave cylinder (or if the crankshaft main seal failed, engine oil could enter, but you�d think it would get slung about a bit). As BillyZ said -- usually gearbox oil leaks at the back of the powerplant area from the transfer gear cover (or the smaller cover on the transfer gear cover). I've yet to use a gearbox oil that didn't have a distinctive (and unpleasant) smell, so since you didn't also mention an "odor", this is also a clue that it's not gearbox oil. BretM had the right advice -- keep monitoring the discharge and the brake/clutch reservoir level (but it sounds like you�re headed for a clutchectomy regardless). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Gearbox oil can look quite a bit like brake fluid if they're both dirty. Weight wise I would say that gearbox oil is a bit heavier though. Check the brake reservoir before you drive everytime and see if it's leaking. My car just started leaking a little engine oil recently. I can smell it everyonce in awhile hitting the exhaust manifold or something hot. Only like once or twice in an hour ride a drip falls down onto them so it's not too bad. I somewhat unfortunately know that my leak is from the destra valve cover, well needless to say I wont be fixing it until I pull the engine for the service in quite a few miles. You'd have to be Houdini himself to do it with the engine in the car, although if you took off the bonnet maybe you'd only have to be David Copperfield, but not Copperfield now, Copperfield when he was in his prime with Claudia Schiffer. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Steve, I did refill the Brake fluid reservoir two weeks ago since it was close to the minimum level, but I did not think anything of it since I have not seen but a few drops every know and then. I do not know how the gearbox oil is supposed to look like but the oil that is leaking does look like brake fluid. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Caribe -- I'm still not sure if you've determined if it's gearbox oil or clutch/brake fluid. Check the level in the clutch/brake reservior under the front bonnet (they use the same fluid/reservior) -- if it's brake/clutch fluid, the level should be way low based on your description of volume loss (but even if low, if you top it up you should be able to get it to the shop (or home). If it's gearbox oil you can lose a liter or 2 (under normal driving circumstances) before things get critical. Good luck... | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Last night I removed the heat shield in the back of the air intake, and the intake funnel. I also removed the heat shield behind the clutch housing from one side only since otherwise I would have to remove the exhaust, but I was able to look all around the clutch housing and it is totally clean. Nevertheless, there was about as much oil on the garage floor as I found on the day before. The oil come out of the bottom hole of the clutch housing (one of the openings all around the clutch housing that allows you to look into the clutch internal components). I look all around thru those holes from all sides except the one where the oil is coming from and everything inside looks dry and clean. Next step, I guess, will be to remove the exhaust so that I can attempt to open the clutch housing for internal inspection. Does anybody know the right procedure to do this? and also, where do you check the oil level for the clutch hydraulic system? Can I drive the car like this? (to take it to a mechanic if required). | ||
| billy zissis (89tr)
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I used high-temp silicone. Just make sure the surfaces are dry. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Thanks guys, I will take a look for these suggestions. Billy, what type of sealant did you use? | ||
| billy zissis (89tr)
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My car also leaked some gear oil and I could not figure out where it came from. At last I saw where it was leaking from and fixed without even lifting up the car. Hopefully your's is the same problem. Look in back of the clutch housing, there is a cap behind the heat shield. I believe it is held on by 3 or 4 nuts. You have to remove the heat shield first to get access to these bolts. Once you take off this cap you will see that there is no gasket. Sometimes the sealant dries out and it starts to leak. This cap covers an the seal for the treansfer case so a little oil might drip out when you take it off. Put some sealant on the cap and wipe off the area and bolt it up again. This solved my problem. You can rule out the clutch housing because if oil was dripping in there you would have fried your clutch by now. | ||
| Adam Goldman '86 TR (Icnsltmfg)
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I just changed the Air Filter on mine, and removed the whole airbox with the oil vent line removed. It had alot of oil in it, and could have a cut in that line an it is running down the bottom of the housing onto the clutch....just a thought..... | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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I noticed a few drops of oil under the my TR in several occasions but could not figure out where it was coming from, everything below look clean. This weekend I put several 100 miles on my TR and when I looked at the floor below my TR on Sunday evening I saw a little stream of oil. I jack up the car again and I found the oil coming from the bottom of the cluch housing, from within, back side. It seems that it only leaks while stopped, because everything around the engine, in particular the surrounding areas look pretty clean, oil free. I looked inside the clutch housing with a flashlight from every possible angle I could look into it, and everything looks dry, no oil, normal I guess. Does anybody have an idea where this oil is coming from? The funny thing is that it does not leak for weeks, but this time it dripped a lot more than any other time. Where do you check the level of this oil? It seems that it might be oil from the hydraulic system for the clutch, but why does it leak only when the car has been parked over night? Shifting seems to be normal (a tough first and fifth). Also, what is the correct procedure to remove the clutch housing to take a peek inside? Thanks, Caribe. |