| Author | Message | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Thanks! I'll try both places today. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
|
Mark, You could also try Dave or Bill at GT Car parts in AZ (623-780-2200). Bill | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Mark, Sorry to see you are finding one bad problem after another. Give Nick a holler 360-332-7779. He may have the parts, if not he may be able to direct you in the right direction. Scianna @ telcomplus.net MAGOO | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Sorry for the progress report delay, but I am having trouble locating the parts needed at an affordable price. The counter shaft that the timing pulley is attached to is $1000 at Rutland's. I didn't even ask about the gear that is on the the crank shaft, it is bad also. Any sugestions on where to get used parts? The counter shaft is pictured on the far left in the photo that Peter supplied. Mark | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Peter, you are correct and I appreciate the expanation but it was a joke. Grafted, Siamese, Oriental versus Italian. Come to think of it, it was a bad joke. Seemed OK at the time. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
Its true Magoo. Twin distributors, whose firing order is the same for each bank based on cylinder number (ie: 1,5,3,7,4,8,2,6 = Rear bank: cylinders 1,3,4,2 = firing order 1,2,3,4. Front bank: cylinders 5,7,8,6 = firing order 1,2,3,4). And the Flat-plane crank which each crank throw shares two rods. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Two 4 cyl. engines grafted together. A Siamese engine! Isn't that oriental? What's going on here?????? | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
The nuts seem to rust onto the shafts rather than being tightened excessively. That area of the engine is exposed to the elements and rust can easily occur. The Ferrari timing belt system is overly exposed versus other types of cars that have belts that are almost air tight in their covers and housings. Also no other car that I have ever seen uses a lay shaft to drive the belts. Everyone else uses the crankshaft and one belt. A Ferrari is made like two four cylinder engines grafted together. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
That ring-nut for the pulley goes on with some force. Unlike the larger ring-nuts on the transmission shafts (which uses the extended shoulder hammered down into notches on the shaft), these smaller nuts have the shoulder split with six cuts and these are bent in slightly. When tightening, these get spread as it is driven on the shaft and this tension is what "locks" it to the shaft. For you to say that you could spin these off with your finger, I'd say he re-used the old ones (as these would've taken a set and no longer would squeeze the shaft). Mine were on so damn tight, I had to carefully cut them off with a dremel and a cold-chissle to chip off the chunks... At the time, I couldn't believe such a small fastener could have such a strong-hold on a thread. These are the same-style nuts used on the drive-shafts and again, mine were so tight, I had to cut those off as well... You may think I'm a butcher with nuts and bolts, but I had no choice and what the hell, rusty fasteners don't look good on a Ferrari J! Now its all shiny gold-cad plated hardware, yummy! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Mark, You want to be sure that the person who works on the car will be the one to testify for you, or have him give you a professional opinion prior to the repair being done and testify for you later. Magoo | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Mark, I am very sorry to hear what happened. First of all, did you have a signed repair order itemizing the work to be done and showing the work that was done? Was the labor charged out for the removal of the cover? One good thing is that he charged you for the studs of the cover which shows that he did remove the cover. How many miles have you put on the car since then? It has been 18 months and most repair orders usually say 1 yr. or 12,000 miles or 90 days or 4,000 miles whichever comes first. You are over those time periods if that is what they warranty. The only thing I see at this point is to have a professional give his opinion as to what happened. Stating also that sealer was applied to the outer surface of the cover to try and stop the oil leak he created. I would venture a guess that he didn't have the right socket to tighten the nut properly and it worked it's way loose. These are things that are going to have to be documented by a professional in writing. I feel certain that you are over the time limit I don't about mileage but either way you are out of the warranty period. If you are going to court you will need a professional opinion,which I might add, would be better if he personally testified for you. Having the guy testify for your personally is your strongest defense. I hate to say it but "time" is against you and hopefully the judge will see that it was a "butcher" job. Just my opinion and I wish you the best of luck. BRGDS, MAGOO | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
It was great meeting you Herb and thank you for giving me the pulley and loaning me the socket. Sorry that we didn't have more time to talk with you and your wife. As soon as the jobs done I'll send the socket back to you. Sorry that we didn't attend the club get together. We tried but couldn't find the park. I'll try to attend next year. Fred, thanks for letting me drive your 308 and feeding us. It helped me get over my Ferrari withdraw and filled my tummy too. That Borla exaust system that you have sure makes her scream. I'm sure glad that cop didn't ticket me. I hope that more of us can meet at your resturant next year. Mark | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Still don't have the cover off yet. The shaft is in pretty bad shape and will have to be replaced. As soon as I know any thing else I'll post an update. The brass nut that held the pulley on was finger tight. I guess that's what caused the problem. Does anyone know what kind of legal action I can take against the shop that did the original work? Is there a statute of limitations on services? I know that I need to contact a lawyer asap or at least file in small claims court. Mark | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Hey Mark, Where are you at this stage with the pulley problem? What have you found out about the pulley, key, or shaft? I hope some good news. Just interested, Magoo | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Thanks guys for all of your input and ideas. It helps reassure me that all will be well soon. And a special thanks goes out to Herb for the generous offer. Herb I'll email you later tonight my toll free work number. I'll try to keep you guys updated on the progress. Mark | ||
| Timothy J. Dressel (Tjd)
|
Mark, My guess is that the mechanic attempted to remove the front cover to replace the seals, then patched it back together when he couldn�t proceed. Had he basic knowledge of the engine, even elementary diagrams, he would have known that the oil pick-up line is attached to the cover. (See in Peter�s pic the two studs with nuts on.) If, as you describe, the shaft is not loose, the bearing is probably OK, at least for now. Hopefully, the mechanic (to use the term loosely) didn�t put any damaging stresses on those bearings. After you�re running again, you�ll want to check the bearings frequently for quite a while, checking for noise (Peter once mentioned �growling�), checking for oil leaks at the seals, and tugging laterally at the sprockets for any looseness. It sounds like you�re proceeding correctly to determine cause of the loose fit of the sprocket. Once you remove the ring nut, the sprocket should come off, as mine did, without too much trouble. The shaft and the inside of the sprocket appear to be ground surfaces; and they fit together well, by hand when clean. It�s hard to image what the mechanic did to cause the extreme looseness you describe (pounding or prying?) You may want to replace the seal again. If you determine that the front cover has to come off, the conventional process includes removal of the engine/trans and the separation of the engine from the trans. Several of us can advise. However, I saw a posting quite a while ago (not on F C) describing the procedure to remove the cover without having to remove the engine/trans and separating them. I saved the text and pictures. The procedure bordered on the supernatural, but I would have tried it had I seen it earlier. Keep us posted on your progress. Good luck. --tim d (I�m basing my comments primarily on my work on my �75 308 and invite supplements and corrections.) | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
I am going to give you the pulley and let you borrow the socket. I do not need the old pulley off my engine with the new belt system. E-mail me and we can meet at the track this weekend and I will bring them with me. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
I'm sorry this had to happen to you, don't ever take this car to that shop again. I'd be even scared to bring a Porsche to that shop. A responsible mechanic would never use such disgusting over-use of silicone on any engine, no matter what type, Fiat or Ferrari. His emormous use of sealant tells me he damaged the front cover/transmission case, probably trying to pull it off. This is a precision-machined surface, there is no gasket between the block and transmission case so you only need a wipe of sealant on that surface. He probably used the wrong size woodruff key on the shaft. Expect damage to the shaft as well. You'll need to remove the main pulley/Harmonic balancer (it comes off as one unit), to remove the timing-drive pulleys. You'll need a 36mm socket for that, as well as an impact wrench (its tightened down to I think 140ft-lbs). | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Magoo- It's a local shop here in Fort Wayne. They specialize in German cars. They are not even authorized to work on new German makes but do alot of work on older ones. A friend of mine worked there at the time and has since left because of the shoddy work ethics. He didn't do the work because he only works on Porsches. I learned the hard way. Mark | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Mark, Don't give a name but I hope this was not a authorized Ferrari Station or Dealer who did this? The pics of the using the sealer trying to stop the oil leak makes me sick. | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
I'll do that. Hey herb, do you still have that socket for sale? Email me a price. Take it to the race this weekend and maybe we can meet up. I'll buy you a beer! Mark | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Hey Mark, I would go ahead and remove the pulley nut using the proper socket and a impact. | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Magoo-The slack is because the tensioner has been removed. Don't worry I won't start it. The key is not even in the ignition. I'm hoping that all I need is a new pulley. If that's the case then It will be up and running soon. Wish me luck. Mark | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Mark, Just a guess but he may not have tightened the pulley properly or installed the key properly or whatever. Looking at those photos it appears that you are ready for a disaster looking at all that slack in the belt. Don't even start it! Not having performed this operation myself, there was a thread not too long ago about removing the nut with a impact and the pulley was not hard to remove. I don't think a puller was used. If it is as loose as you say it is and the shaft is not moving it may not be a bearing but only a loose pulley. Hopefully it hasn't hurt anything else like the groove in the shaft. | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Sorry for the follow up delay. I started a new job last week and I have been busy. Also my friend who has been helping me has been out of town the last two weekends racing motor cycles. I hope to have my car back together and running sometime around mid October. I'm going to try to post a picture of the lower pulley, although it doesn't really show the play that I mentioned. As soon as I get the pulley removed I'll try to get a shot that shows the wear that caused the pulley to wobble. The shaft in the center of the pulley does not move, just the pulley wobbles. I'm guessing that the key and/or keyway have some wear. The reason that I found this problem is that the engine made a sound that I thought was a timing belt tensioner bearing going bad. I'm glad that I didn't drive it any further. The belts were replaced 18 months ago. At that time the mechanic removed the front cover. Why he did this I do not know. He charged me for the studs that he said he had removed with vise grips. The front engine cover since then has been leaking. I'll post another photo showing the silicone sealant that he tried to use to stop the leak. Did he not install the cover correctly? I paid $2400 for two timing belts, one cam seal and one hell of a oil leak.    | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
If you can move the pulley up-and-down, then that tells me the outer bearings in the front cover have gone (like really GONE). I see no way of pulling them out without removing the front cover and that means splitting the engine/trans (ie: hoisting the engine out). Unless you can spin out the lower studs, then MAYBE slide the cover forward and off. I wish you lots of luck and please post some pics to help with the "play" explanation. Here's some of my photos: The front cover:  The oil-pump drive gear:  | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
I did not notice that you said that the engine was running OK when you parked it so The valves should be OK. I assume you were going to replace the belts is how you discovered the problem. I have everything you should need to get it going again. If you have any questions and are unsure of anything, please stop and ask before proceeding. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
I have the socket and an extra pulley since I removed the old timing belt system from my car and will never go back to the old timing belt system. If the keyway is stripped out and the pulley turned on the shaft there is a chance that the pistons hit the valves. You are going to have to get the pulley off first and then let me know if I can help you further. | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
Thanks for the info. I can move the pulley up and down and can also twist the pulley 1/4 " or so. The pulley shaft does not move though. I need to remove the pulley (among other things) to determine what other parts I might need. The car ran fine when I pulled it into the garage, so I know that I don't have major engine damage. Also my friend Mike is helping me. He's an import mechanic and knows what to do. He just doesn't know about special tools needed. This sight is a Godsend. Thanks! Mark | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
|
Mark -- the timing belt drive pulley is keyed to the shaft so I think it's very unlikely that the play you feel is between the pulley and the shaft (although anything's possible). More likely you're feeling the "play" in the gear set itself plus the "play" that axial motion of the (unpreloaded) bearing set allows (as these are helical spur gears, axial play gets translated into rotary play). Since these gears are driven unidirectionally, the "play" gets taken out in use (so some play is expected -- the tricky part is determining how much is too much). It's certainly not uncommon to need to refresh the lip seals on these timing belt drive gears/shafts, and like most projects, once you're in that far it makes sense to replace the bearings too. 1. You'll definitely need an SPC IMHO to tackle this project 2. Do a Keyword Search on Baum (they have the ring nut socket) 3. Parts? -- I've been using T. Rutlands with good satisfaction (but there are other discount F part suppliers) Good luck with the diagnosis (you might want to "feel" the other side for a comparison)/fix... | ||
| '82 308gtsi (Mark)
|
How do you remove the brass lock nut on the lower timing belt pulley? I've slackened the timing belt and I found that the lower timing belt pulley has a lot of play in it. I'm thinking that the nut might of loosened and caused the pulley to go bad. Where is the best source for these parts? I'll post pictures as soon as I can take them. I'm working on a tight budget and will be selling the car as soon as it is back on the road. Can't afford to keep her and devorce my wife. Mark |