| Author | Message | ||
| Lloyd (Lloyd)
Junior Member Username: Lloyd Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2001 |
It is my understanding that in at least a 512TR that the tensioner bearing can be replaced without pulling the engine and replacing the belts. I wonder if this is correct for TRs and 3_8s and, if so, would this be an intermediate option. For example, change the bearings every three years and both belts and bearings every 6 years. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2408 Registered: 9-2001 |
The manual for my BB512i indicates a cam belt change between 27.5k and 35k miles. No time limit given. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 606 Registered: 11-2002 |
Barry, the guys down @ Ferrari of ATL told me the bearing makes a sqeeking noise when it is worn out. Vince, who is telling you to change the belt @ 15K? The maintenance manual says 2 years or 40K and the owners manual says every 52K. I have been told by the guys down @ FOA that you can safely push the time requirement to 5 years but that you should not push the mileage. My engine is being done as we speak. The last major was done just under 3 years ago when the car had 44k miles on it. The car now has 62K. I have seen the belt they took off and it did show some wear with significant glazing to the back side of the belt. Everything I have heard and read considered, IMO 5 years or 40k miles is probably a good compromise between cost and safety. The only reason I decided to do mine now is to make sure it is ok. I just bought the car last July and I wanted to make sure everything was up to snuff. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 182 Registered: 2-2003 |
" friend of mine has a lotus V8 that has done 35,000 miles" Why? The factory says the V-8 belts (and subsequent I4 belts) can be done at 100K. | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 354 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have been told the belt set and length is the same as on the Lexus V8. The belt needs chaning every 60,000 miles. A friend of mine has a lotus V8 that has done 35,000 miles. He has just changed the belts and they look brand new. They still have the manufacturer writting on them. If some thing is going to fail first its probably the tensionr bearing. I had a Alfa that was chain driven and the car has never had the chain changed its done 200,000 miles when I sold it and its still going. Bring back the chain. Its not noisy. !!!! Though I know that on the M3 BMW they are chain driven and they need to be replaced at 100,000 miles... | ||
| barry castelete (Bazzis)
New member Username: Bazzis Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2002 |
Do tensioners give any warning of failure,or do they just pop and cause belts to break?? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 538 Registered: 4-2003 |
I think that if every time you get in the car and it makes you nervous, you should change the belts. But who should you believe as to when to get nervous that seems to be a different question altogether. Before I get too nervous, I'd like to hear more horror stories. don't get me wrong I'm all for proper maintenance but the 15k estimate seems a bit short. On the other hand, if the car has hardly been driven for 3 years, change the belts and bearing! Vincent. | ||
| Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member Username: Steve308gtsi Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2002 |
David, It's funny you mentioned Honda. The other day a friend of mine was bragging about how many miles he has put on his Honda. He says it's up to 153k miles. He has never changed the timing belt. Go figure. | ||
| Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member Username: Steve308gtsi Post Number: 94 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dr. Ken, Its all about$$$$$. Think about how much business and income that $12 belt gets them. The early Lambo V-8's had belts. One of the problems were when someones battery would fail they would push start the car. Well that sudden shock of popping the clutch would sometimes cause the belt to skip and many times valves got bent.Needless to say after doing alot of warranty work they switched to timing chains. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 941 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dr. Ken, The 360 does not require engine removal, the belts are replaced through the passenger compartment, but according to the local dealer, little labor costs are saved, as the opening is tight to work through, and a good amount of prep work is involved to protect the interior of the car from damage while working. Visual inspection of the belts is not a good indicator of condition, according to the experts on this list.... Why can't Ferrari use a better quality, longer lasting belt? Good question! Does anyone know what the belt change interval is on the Honda S2000 with the 9k redline? I would think those are subjected to similar stresses as a Ferrari timing belt. | ||
| Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Junior Member Username: Kenster888 Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'm not an expert on this, but something smells fishy here: 1. Why is it that Ferrari can not design an engine such that changing a belt is not a difficult task and does not require engine removal? It seems to me that majority of the major service cost is labor in removing the engine. Also you can't check the condition of the belt without engine removal?! 2. With a wide range of materials available today, why can't they design a stronger belt to last longer? It seems downright ridiculous to me. Thanks for your input. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 253 Registered: 10-2001 |
I would trust the belt material to last longer than a tensioner bearing, especially if the car sits for quite a while. I've driven a 90s vw 85,000 miles on a belt before changing it, and had a tensioner bearing start to freeze up on my saab leaving me stranded in lovely los banos, ca (yeah right) for a night until I could get parts from santa cruz. Of course the car did have over 150k miles on it. I've got a Fiat sitting here with at least 207k miles on it (speedo cable is broken) and I have no idea when it was last changed, ha! But I'm putting a different head on it soon anyway. Unfortunately, I've never had a car with a belt whose engine was expensive enough to rebuild to worry about it much I guess! (the dino had chains). But I suspect that if you change the tensioner bearing, you have to change the belt too, huh? (most timing belts are not supposed to be retensioned after being loosened). As for for having peace of mind after a dealer changes the belt...well, that may work for some people but it would worry the crap out of me! I trust the guy who put it together in Maranello, and I'd trust a knowledgeable friend mechanic (hope you all are lucky enough to have these!), and maybe, just maybe myself and that would be about it, ha! | ||
| Stanley DiGuiseppi (Standig)
Junior Member Username: Standig Post Number: 98 Registered: 5-2002 |
Collin I just had my 90 348 with 10k miles done for the first time. The belt looked like new however the bearing that drives the chain was badly worn and that could have caused serious damange. If you buy an early 348 make sure you change the bearing. There is an updated bearing. I did water pump just because the engine was out. It was expensive but I am hoping not to do again for a long time. | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 347 Registered: 10-2002 |
Say if you drive you Ferrari 348 regularly approximately 10,000 to 15,000 miles a year and you clock up to 52500 miles in 3 years to 5 years and change you belts as per the Ferrari manual of 52500 miles. Then the belt broke, should'nt Ferrari pay for the repair. You are following the manual guidelines... Right or Wrong ??? | ||
| Jean-Louis (Jlm348)
Member Username: Jlm348 Post Number: 573 Registered: 11-2002 |
I bought a 94 348 last year with 5000 miles on it, the car never had a major. at 7500 miles I had a major done, due to an oil leak, and had the belts change, as well as everything else.. My belt was almost like new, but now I have piece of mind. its worth the money inmy opinion. the alternative if it goes bad is vey expensive | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 594 Registered: 1-2002 |
James has a point. Most failures seem to be due to tensioners siezing or oil leaks. Unfortunately, you will be lucky to get 30K without either or both of these problems occuring, so a timely change (alnog with tensioners and and seals) is still advisable. It is also said that rubber parts in general will deteriorate more rapidly in high polution areas. Since air has gotten a lot cleaner accross the US, this may be of little concern anymore. Dave | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 576 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ernie - your risk/benefit analysis is right on. I recently had two major services done. Total of 32 years on the two engines without belt change. Both belts looked like new. I suspect that a careful analysis of failure history will reveal poor correlation between belt age and failure. Tensioner bearing failure is more likely. In addition, I believe that driving habits have little to do with likelihood of failure (garage queen versus daily driver). Those belts that have failed, as supported by the few anecdotal comments on this thread, are likely due to contributing factors such as oil leak, overheating of bearings, rust on bearings, oil leak, and perhaps oil leak. I am 55 years of age. My estate Will calls for "generation skipping" as applied to engine-out major services with belt changes. Won't happen during my or my children�s lifetime (unless, of course, there is another compelling reason to take the engine out). Jim S. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 712 Registered: 11-2001 |
Scott It is the engine being rebuilt, because the valves and pistons hit. I had a timing CHAIN bust on me once, and five valves got bent. You really can see the marks on the pistons were the valves hit. How ever for $20K, instead of taking it to the dealer and being ripped off. Take that money and have a motor that is better that what came out of the factory. So yeah if the belt goes so does the motor. On the flip side this is the stuff the dealers will use to scare you into getting a cam belt replaced prematurely. Just drive your car and follow the book. | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 470 Registered: 1-2002 |
It is interesting that "they" say that if the belt goes, you "blow the engine". Isn't it really a matter of valves and reworking the heads? Actual cost about $2000? Are we being taken? I'm not an expert by any means, just curious. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 708 Registered: 11-2001 |
My 348 has 56,000 mile on the ticker and I'm just now going to get the cam belt changed. I say if you drive it then get it done at 52K. As far as the engine being rebuilt, well that is a chance I will take. Besides in the end it will come out the same. If you get the belt changed every 3 years or 30K, at $5k to $6K a pop if done by the dealer, you are looking at $15,000-$18,000 in nine years. The rebuilds cost around $20,000, and that is only another $2grand. So I will get my belts done at every 52K miles. If the belt goes then the belt goes. Quit being such frady cats, drive the cars. The dealers use these stupid scare tactics to get more and more of your money, and as a result Ferrari's become garage queens instead of road warriors. Don't believe the hype! | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 469 Registered: 1-2002 |
Interesting topic. I'm with Chris, any one know of someone with a 328 or 348 who had a belt failure? An if so, under what conditions? Just curious. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 291 Registered: 5-2002 |
the question also is what type of guarantee that even after you change the belts, they will not break? 30 days? | ||
| Chris Tanner (Ctanner)
Junior Member Username: Ctanner Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have also seen one Ferrari engine in the shop being repaired for a cam belt failure. In addition, based on the condition of the car and the nature of previous repairs, the mechanic had recommended the belts replacement well before it broke. Interestingly enough, the engine belonged to a TR. There is another Fchatter who had a belt brake at 6K miles on his TR. Does anyone know of anyone who had a belt brake on a 348, or even 328 and 355, and under what circumstances? It would be interesting to determine if the belt question is "TR based", or really "all car based" and our sample size is just too small. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2002 |
Since when did the recommended time come down to 2 years? I've always thought it was every 5 years or 15,000 miles, whichever came first. Collin, unfortunately, you can't really tell if your belts need changing w/o the engine out, but given no change since 89 , I would do it soon. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 973 Registered: 10-2001 |
God, an engine out service every 2 years. Not to sound like Allan, but that really is a stupid design. If you do it every 5 years, how many years before the belt service savings is more than an engine rebuild? | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 586 Registered: 1-2002 |
A story was related to me (I think by Steve Ahlgrim) of a TR owner who had a cam belt failure within the time and miles prescribed in the owners manual. He then sued Ferrari and got a new motor. This prompted Ferrari to put out the bulletins to dealers recommending belt changes every 2 years which supposedly absolves them of liability. I may not have the facts exactly here but given the source, the overall story should be true. Dave | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 589 Registered: 11-2002 |
Man I feel sorry for that guy. That is a nice looking car. That engine is toast. When I saw it it was already out of the car and they were about to take it apart to see what the damage is. It would be interesting to see it opened up just to see what a cam belt failure can do. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2376 Registered: 9-2001 |
Charles, thats the one. He used it as his daily driver and it did show a little wear. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 578 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave, thanks for that info. I think I am going to go with the maintenence manual on this one then. 40K or 2 years whichever comes first. Frank, that TR wouldn't be the black one sitting down at FOA would it? If so, I saw that car just the other day. The failure was the owners fault. According to the guys in the shop, he had been warned to fix a serious oil leak he had long before the belt broke. The oil was leaking all over the belt. I saw the engine personally, it was a mess. You could tell it had been leaking oil for quite some time. Luckily that engine has two cam belts and only one broke so he probably only has damage to one side. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2372 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jscott, I believe that Dave is correct. If Ferrari would have acknowledged in the manual that a cam belt required a change in less than 50k miles then it would be covered by the USA emissions warranty . So, Ferrari decided to require a cam belt change in 52.5k miles instead so the USA emissions warranty would not be in effect for that part. | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have been told to change the belts every 3 years or 30,000 miles whatever comes up first. This information came from Marnello UK. | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 462 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dave: That is interesting. Does that mean that if a belt broke on a car with less than 52.5K miles, the damage to the engine would be covered under a warranty? Or, does the "service bulletin" change the rules? | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 584 Registered: 1-2002 |
The reason the manual says "52,500" is because emissions equipment is required to be warranteed for 50K without repairs/replacements. The belts are part of the timing system and as such are covered under emissions warrantees. Ferrari has issued service bulletins recommending replacements at 2 year intervals. In any event, 14 years is too long and cars that sit are actually more at risk than those with regular driving. Dave | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 460 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mine is 10 years old with 20000 miles and the belt is scheduled for change on August 1. Too long for the belt. I'm going minimize the driving until changed. Won't worry about the next change, I will have the 355 or 360 befor they become due. But, 5 years and 30K is my measure. | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
Junior Member Username: Milo Post Number: 247 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'm going with the 5 years/30,000 mile plan. Mine were changed about a year ago. Some I'm good for a while. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 768 Registered: 9-2001 |
Collin, I have a very good independent mechanic I know and who drives a 348 himself. The manual says 24 months (= 2 years) but he says you should change the belts at least all three years regardless of mileage! 348 engine is very solid he says. Never any problems besides cambelt failures due to no changes. End of story: Do the cambelt changes (=Major engine out services) at least all three years regardless of mileage run! With this advice you are on the safe side, I suppose!  Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 914 Registered: 5-2001 |
This is always a heated thread "belt change". I also bought a "garage queen" 78 308 GTS with 15k miles in late 1999 with the original belts! 21 years and "visually" they looked fine, but obviously that was a freakin' grenade waiting to go off. I am no "statistical analysis" (but my dad was) and I'm sure there are examples of belt going in 1 year and belts going in 15, but I am sure it is weighted toward the far end of things. This List would probably agree that beyond 6-7 years the risk becomes significant, and worthy of replacement. I have never really had to worry about this since I have driven the two Ferraris I have owned sufficiently to go by miles, and not time. In fact, I propose that ALL of you get off this subject and start driving enough to make this a mute point! | ||
| Jim Hilton (Colo348)
New member Username: Colo348 Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2003 |
Collin, Dave L is right. Factory spec. 5 years or 30K to change the cam belt. If you do buy this car your first stop should be at your local F dealer. New engine is around 15 to 25K. Since, your looking check out the clutch '89 and '90 348 have a dual plate type clutch that usually needs to be changed to a single plate (355 type, mine was around 4K). Any upgrades on the front suspension? Ignition and alterator are a couple more items to check out. I have a '90 with new clutch, 2.7 ignition, upgraded suspension and cam seals, but still the Delco alternator. Delco still fine at 28K on my car. The 348 is a great car, just check it out. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2370 Registered: 9-2001 |
A friend of mine just had a cam belt break in his TR 61 months after he last had it changed. He now needs a new engine. | ||
| Collin Hays (Chaysintexas)
Junior Member Username: Chaysintexas Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2002 |
Thanks for the insight, Pete. | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2002 |
you're at 14 years thus you answered your own question | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Senior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 5132 Registered: 8-2002 |
I think it is the fear of a cam belt break that makes people get them done in more frequently then maybe they would normally. I do mine every 5 years or 40-50k miles, which ever I hit first. Which is usually the milage. | ||
| Collin Hays (Chaysintexas)
Junior Member Username: Chaysintexas Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2002 |
The one thing I have learned from this is that every 3-5 years is way OVERKILL. Here a car is that's 14 years old - supposedly overdue on the cam belt change by 9-11 years depending on how you figure, and the darn thing still runs great. When I purchased my 308 2V, it had just had a complete belt service done - THE FIRST ONE SINCE IT WAS BRAND NEW - ABOUT 20 YEARS!! Now, I wouldn't go 20 or even 14, but for crying out loud, every 3 years? I would say the risk of major failure is much greater changing this often simply from the added risk of a mechanic screwing it up on one of those. So that's my take. | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
Junior Member Username: Milo Post Number: 244 Registered: 4-2003 |
The maintenace schedule I have says at 40,000 and 80,000 miles or 24 months. That's both the timing belt and the A/C belt. | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Junior Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2003 |
Collin, I agree with others. Do the service. In this case the age of the belts is the major factor and should draw you to this conclusion more than the mileage. Either way, it should be done IMHO. | ||
| Ron Vallejo (Ron328)
Junior Member Username: Ron328 Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2003 |
Reminded me of a '94 348 spider I saw inside a BMW showroom. I asked the salesperson when the last major/cambelt change was done and he replied "not yet, it only has 11K miles on it." Anyways, I've heard and read 3-5 years or 5-8 years. I guess it's safe to do it every 5yrs. regardless of miles. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 574 Registered: 11-2002 |
It appears there is a discrepency between the maintenence manual and the owners manual. I just got my owners manual out and discovered that it says you should change the belt at 52,500 miles but it does not give a time limit. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 573 Registered: 11-2002 |
I just happen to have a copy of the Maintence manual in front of me. It says change the belt every 40K miles or every 24 months. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this subject. The guys down at Ferrari of atlanta told me 5 years is as far as they would push it. My car is in FOA getting a major as we speak. The last major it had was October of 2000. The car had 44K miles on it at that point, it now has 62K on it. I just looked at the old belt 2 days ago and it did show some minor wear. The worst thing about it though was the glazing otherwise it was in pretty good shape. Chances are I could have waited a little longer to do the major but I wanted to be safe. Hope this helps. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1843 Registered: 1-2001 |
I've noted that "348" and "2~3 years" often gets mentioned together (more often than the typical ~5 years for a 308/328) -- can 348 Owners/Mechanics comment? Is it because of the 348 mono-belt design? The "52,500 miles" quoted by F also assumes near daily use so this doesn't really apply IMO to car nearing the middle of it's second decade with only 15K miles. We could argue whether the right interval is 3 or 5 or 7 years -- but like pete and Dave said, it ain't 14! If the seller doesn't think it needs a major service now, he doesn't know what he's selling... | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2368 Registered: 9-2001 |
The 348 manual does say that the cam belt should be changed at 52,500 miles. And, I suspect that would be find if you drove those 52,500 miles in three to five years. However, it would take most Ferrari owners 10 years to rack up that many miles. The rule of thumb I have heard is to change the cam belt(s) every 3-5 years regardless of miles. Time and heat detriorates the belt(s) more than miles. | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2002 |
Way way way overdue IMHO , simply due to time. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Member Username: Davel Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2001 |
Change them...no question...5yrs being conventional wisdom. The belts are 14yrs old. Price a rebuild vs just doing the 30k service. That alone should scare you | ||
| Collin Hays (Chaysintexas)
Junior Member Username: Chaysintexas Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm looking at a '89 w/under 15K miles that has NEVER had a cam belt change. Owner says "Ferrari says 52,500 miles". Strictly in terms of time, how long should a 348 go between cam belt changes without any significant risk? Thanks! |