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Message |
Russ Gould (Russ)
New member
Username: Russ
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 6:38 pm: | |
Since I own a 308 GTSi, a 308 GT4, and a Mondial 8 I will add a few comments regarding these likely first Ferraris.
GTSi starts right up and runs like a dream. The 2 valve cars are a bargain because of bad PR in Sports Car market and elsewhere (mostly p@n*s envy I think). The 81/2 years do burn oil, some more than others, that's a design issue and doesn't mean the engine is going to conk out. Just get in the habit of adding a pint with each tank, or every other tank, depending on your particular car's propensity. Ferrari changed the ring design on the 4 valves to rectify this. You will pay quite a bit more for a 4 valve, get more durable paint, and get some more pep (and also an ugly spoiler thing that looks like an afterthought). However, if you have grown out of burning rubber, the 2 valves are just fine. Regarding the B vs. S, get an S. Open motoring without mussing your hair or freezing your butt off. If you are tall (an issue with 308s) all the more reason to get an S. The Bs are more rigid but you won't notice the difference under US motoring conditions. All 308 GTBs and GTSs suffer from a lousy cockpit view. The left fender looks lumpy and you can't see behind and to the rear very well.
The 308 GT4 is ugly, no way around it, especially the Series I cars. However, they have several advantages over the Bs and Ss. Cockpit feel is much better. Rear seat (or luggage rack if you can get it, that's what you'll use the seats for) is a plus in utility. Try to get a leather one (it was an option) not vinyl, and sunroof with a/c are also nice options to have. Mechanically, they sound better with the carbs, have more pep than the early injected cars, and (I think) you can modify the engine without breaking the law eg big valves, hot cams etc. You can fiddle with them yourself, no special tools needed for most maintenance. There is a reason why these cars are favored for track conversions over the B and S. Lastly, they are cheap! In my opinion, that will not last because lots of them have been converted to track cars and there weren't nearly as many to start with. Plus there is a growing recognition that these cars are good drivers and easy on the wallet.
Mondial, I have the coupe, is the slow poke because they are so heavy, particularly the 2 valve version. Handles like a truck at low speed with those big (and very expensive) tires. Big advantage is the back seats are there for kids, and they are cheap, the cheapest of all in fact. For the conservative driver with one or two kids who doesn't need to prove his maleness at every stoplight. They are also much scarcer than B and S.
I haven't driven a Cabrio but my guess is they are the model to get if you live in a temperate climate. You will get wind buffeting though, there is no rear window like the targa.
I am told the 328 is the best of all worlds, but have never owned or driven one. The interior looks better than the earlier 308s and the service intervals are longer, I think. You'll pay twice as much vs. a Mondial or GT4 though.
Go to a couple of dealers and drive the cars, try to test drive a few different models to see what you like.
At the end of the day, buy what turns you on, but make an informed decision! |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 651
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 7:01 am: | |
You did not say whether you work on cars yourself. If you do (competently), the maintenance is not much.
I have two cars with CIS injection. One is 23 years old and the other is 16 years. Nothing has ever gone wrong with the injection system with either. The 16 year old is my 328. Personally, I have had very little trouble with my 328. The whole thing might boil down to how you treat it and how you maintain it. They are not for ham fisted wrench turners.
A 308 or 328 or a Mondial would be my choice. If you like carbs, get an older 308.
Also, I would add that this list is a good place to find help regarding maintenace, marriage, divorce, investments, or just arguing about anything in general. |
DGS (Dgs)
New member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 6:19 am: | |
It _is_ possible to do your own work on injection systems, but you have to do your homework. There are several good books on fuel injection available, and there's a lot of information (and disinformation) ;^) on the web. I even managed to dig up information on servicing the old Spica mechanical injection system used in US market Alfas in the '70s.
Working on CIS systems requires some specialized tools though. CIS runs much higher than "normal" fuel pressure, so it takes a specialized (and somewhat pricy) meter. But since CIS uses fuel pressure for control and metering, you really need one of these if you're going to work on CIS.
You also need to have a (at least) two gas exhaust analyzer to work on injections systems. Given how crucial EGT is to most modern cars, and given that these have been standard fixtures of virtually every repair shop for the last 30-plus years, I'm at a loss to understand why they're not stock items at Autozone or Sears. The continuing high price and low availability of these devices seems to violate the standard expectations of a free enterprise market. |
michaelthuber (Mikehuber)
New member
Username: Mikehuber
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 9:42 pm: | |
Irion,
If you don't mind a couple of comments from a "rookie" (85 Mondial Cab. 3.2QV purchased in Jan. '03) owner here goes:
I know it sounds like 25% of the purchase price to get a car up to snuff is a lot, but in my case it will be at least that much, and I do everything except fuel injection work myself.
Let me congratulate you on the foresight to post your questions on this site. I didn't find it until after I bought my car. There is an incredible wealth of expertise here, and there is help for any problem you encounter. Just post and magically you will get plenty of help.
Use the sponsors of the site. I do and I haven't been disappointed.
Don't forget to figure on $2-3K for 16" wheel conversion if you buy a mid 80's car with the 390mm wheels. There is only one stock replacement tire available in the world for these cars and it is 80's technology. There is a very long string from a group that just went through the conversion. I just found some wheels via this site for my conversion.
Buy every manual you can find that relates to the car you purchase. They aren't cheap, by book standards, but they are worth every penny.
Lastly, for me owning a Ferrari has been a lifelong dream and even with the high price of parts, the long internet searches to find them and the time it takes to replace them, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Go get you one.
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Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 815
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 8:45 pm: | |
The FCA Northwest's FerrariFAQ has the best write-up for a prospective 1st buyer that I know of:
"What should I do before buying a Ferrari?"
http://www.ferrariclub.com/faq/prebuy.html
Wish I'd known it existed & had read it before I bought my F*.
If you still have questions after reading it, please feel free to post them.
BTW, DGS & the others advice is good. The 'make it right' budget will vary depending on the age of the car & it's initial condition. A '70s vintage carb'd 308 can be bought for $15K to $25K or more. The $15K one is likely to need $4K to $6K in work in the 1st year (ie: 20-25%) while the $25K car better be pretty well sorted out and may only need $1.5K to $3K.
BTW, Tifosi1 also lives near you. He has very good contacts, might be a good resource when it comes to dealer credibility , lining up a PPI, etc. |
Russ Gould (Russ)
New member
Username: Russ
Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 8:10 pm: | |
Since I am on a roll here, here's my ten cents worth. Buy a car you can work on, that pretty much means pre-fuel injection. It's no fun (and scary) getting hit with a bill in the thousands every time some little thing goes wrong, and being in no position to argue. It's like surgery. Without insurance.
It's immensely enjoyable doing it yourself. Makes ownership and driving a more rounded experience. Also, knowing how it works will make you a better/more sympathetic driver. Again, IMHO, if you aren't into turning a wrench, you should get a Honda. Beyond that, buy what you can easily afford to maintain. If you have lots of dough, by all means get a Boxer, 330 GTC, 365GTC, or even a 330. Avoid a C4, they were designed to bankrupt you. If you are a "salaryman", get a 308 GT4 (good value because they are ugly but the view from inside is better than most), 246, or early 308. Mondial coupes are very cheap to buy because they are staid and don't go, but they all have injection and lots of electronic gremlins. If you have a child or two )or plan to have one), get a 2+2 (GT4 or V12) and put the purchase price difference in a college fund. However, if you are on the loose and want to enhance your maleness, get a Spyder of some sort, a red one, or an F40 if you really want to make a statement. Finally, when it comes down to the particular car, have it thoroughly checked out...your dream could be a money pit. The experts know what to look for. It'll be the best $500 you ever spent. Final consideration: resale value. The older cars don't lose value, and some actually appreciate! 246 Dino is a better bet than 348, for example; 512Boxer better than a 456.
Having said that, if you are not mechanical but nevertheless vain and willing to make someone who is mechanical a permanent fixture on your annual budget, the 328 is hard to beat. Longer service intervals, bulletproof, ageless design, lots of go, and won't lose value. |
axel wulff (Axel)
New member
Username: Axel
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 10:17 am: | |
Irion
Below is all good advice. Another item to consider is how well you swing the wrench. The more you can do yourself (even the small tasks) the less you will have to shell out to others.
As far as which model .. my pic of the 308 model would be a sound 308 QV. |
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member
Username: Coachi
Post Number: 290
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 8:37 am: | |
This gentleman wants to buy an F car to cruise in, not run on the track or drive 120mph. I would say just about any 308 in good condition, with a targa top, that fits your budget. Have it checked out, and make sure the mechanic says it is in good condition, then go for it. Once we know your budget we may be able to direct towards the proper 308 within your price range. |
DGS (Dgs)
New member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 2:11 am: | |
The 25% was just about right on my 328, so maybe it was a "real heap". ;^)
Of course, that percentage is a buckshot number. It will probaby run higher on, say, a 2 valve Mondial, and lower on a late model 550.
It's probably better to overestimate service and have money left over than to underestimate it and have to sell the machine after a year.
You _could_ pay a premium for a "just serviced", "like new" car.
But I put no stock in buzz phrases like "just serviced" or "like new". "Just serviced" on a low miles car could mean five years ago.
I prefer to take the cost of the service off the purchase price, and then have the work done to _my_ instructions. That way, you know what you've got.
Getting all the bugs out first thing should reduce subsequent surprises, and keep the ongoing maintenance costs more predictable. And letting your mechanic get a good baseline on the machine can also help control subsequent maintenance costs.
Using that approach, I drove nothing but supposedly "unreliable" Alfa Romeos for ten years, with almost no repairs between scheduled services. The only time I got left by the roadside was a fuel delivery problem covered by a factory recall.
Your smileage may vary.
- DGS
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James Christian (Jimc)
New member
Username: Jimc
Post Number: 49
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 1:32 am: | |
IMHO, you can't beat the late model 328's and Mondials 3.2's. Time and time again I hear that they are some of the most reliable F-cars produced. And for what it's worth, the prices of exceptional examples are pretty darned reasonable these days.
Of course, if you have the means, the newer the car the better. Your probably going to have pretty good luck with a late model 550 or 360, as they are backed by the factory if you have trouble.
DGS: Let's not scare this guy. 25% of the purchase price? That's a bit excessive. I would say 10 - 15% is more reasonable to "make things right" unless you were to buy a real heap. |
DGS (Dgs)
New member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 1:10 am: | |
One error to avoid is putting all your assets into buying the machine, leaving nothing for maintenance. That's not a formula for reliability.
For the average "used" Italian car, figure a quarter of the purchase price for the first service, to have the car "made right". Then keep up the regular services.
That makes for a large, but fairly predictable maintenance rate, but gives you a car that has few problems between services.
This approach works on any car type, but relates moreso for Italian cars, which go "off note" fairly quickly without regular service.
I'd suggest you line up your maintenance even before shopping for the car.
For one thing, any car (even a Ferrari) isn't going to be much fun if you can't get it maintained right.
But another reason is that a good shop might be able to point you to a good used car.
And if your mechanic is already familiar with the machine, it might reduce the cost of getting it "made right", as much of that is labor while the mechanic pokes and prods around an unfamiliar machine.
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david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 927
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 12:38 am: | |
Get a 360 with a factory warranty; that's about as trouble free as it gets.... |
Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member
Username: Jfraser
Post Number: 391
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 11:23 pm: | |
Henryk..very amusing lol
Irion, please don't take offense, welcome to Ferrarichat...You're probably better off posting this thread in the general discussion area....Can you give us some idea of your budget, there's lots of members here that will give you some great advise. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 790
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
".......trouble free as possible....." Buy a Honda. You aren't ready for a Ferrari. |
Peter (Bubba)
Member
Username: Bubba
Post Number: 400
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 10:27 pm: | |
Our first Ferrari was a Mondial 3.2. Easy on the pocket and loads of fun after it was properly fixed up. |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 10:10 pm: | |
Irion... depends on how much you have to spend. They can all be trouble free, depending on how they've been maintained, and they're all a lot of fun to drive. Welcome to the board, and the F world.
Best regards,
Andy |
Irion Bordelon (Ibordelon)
New member
Username: Ibordelon
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 9:59 pm: | |
I am seeking advice. I would like to purchase my first Ferrari, basically for weekend cruising around town. Which model would you recommend for a first timer....something which will be as trouble free as possible, yet still be alot of fun to drive? Thanks for the help. |
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