| Author | Message | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 292 Registered: 7-2002 |
Andy I don't want to hi-jack this into a P6 cam story. However, as you know the cams are out at Dema Elgin's for him to inspect and "fix". I went through the measurement numbers with the master mechanic. As best as I can recall, they (I, E) are both .368 lift and 290 duration. This is different from the P6 specs I was given (as you know). Intakes are splined, exhausts are plugged. The cam profiles were measured for lift on each lobe on each cam for every 5 degrees of rotation. Elgin says they have the P6 specs too. MM and Elgin will compare notes before any work is done. I'll let you know when I get the final specs. LOL? Nope, expensive as hell. Philip | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 721 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jason, best you don't fly then if you really believe all that claptrap! I suggest you try to manufacture a FOD resistant 3D aerofoil 1 metre in length, honeycomb centred for weight necessity, capable of large temp cycles and cf creep resistant, get them all with aerofoil countours within microns at several stages along the length, then make several hundred thousand of them the same. Our problem is getting 'full of wind' contractors to maintain the drawing spec. They all promise the earth, but when it comes to delivering to spec, hah | ||
| Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member Username: Andyilles Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2002 |
Philip... in keeping with my "10 mechanics/10 opinions" theory... what timing numbers do you have for the "P6" cams? I've seen 7 "correct" specs to date... I'm trying to average 'em, lol. Thanks and best regards, Andy | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 283 Registered: 7-2002 |
I have a 77 gtb. I am in the process of putting on P6 cams (factory competition cams discussed elsewhere in this forum). By the time the cams have been bought, checked, re-hardened, fitted it is a $6000 - 7000 job. If Jeff offered a (customizable) engine for say $8000 with a warranty, it becomes close to a no-brainer. Doesn't it? Also, how many of the 308s are getting to be "higher mileage". 60,000 miles in any other car brand is fine. For Ferraris with so many garage queens/ability to rollback the speedo in the early years etc, low mileage - whether real or faked - is a selling factor. A 60K car with all the bushings redone and a "new" motor FROM A CREDIBLE SOURCE would, at least to me, command at least an equal price possibly a premium against a (claimed) 10,000 mile car. Finally, we've all heard horror stories of failing engines. Who'd invest in a "discount" rebuild from an unknown source? Buyer beware. For me, a "Maranello warranted" or similar engine from Ferrari UK would command serious consideration. HTH, I'll get off my soap box. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 556 Registered: 11-2001 |
Jeff at $3200 for a new crank shaft, I would rather buy a whole engine or short block from some place like T-rutlands for $5K with a warranty. It costs a mere $125 to regrind a crank, $300 if you include nitriding. No disrespect to you, just your prices. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 407 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dave, I wouldn't hold up aerospace engineering as the poster child for perfection.....I too am from the aerospace business, we've received fan blades and turbine blades from a major OEM (not hard to guess which one, they also used to make cars....Actually, it may even be the one you work for...Do you have a facility in Derby) in a state that beggars belief!! aerofoils dented, twisted, nicked etc. machining tolerances so out of range even Mr. Magoo could have done better. Sure, if you're their subcontractor then the packing instructions/requirements run to several pages, as do the material specs. machining tolerances, coating requirements etc (shame they don't follow their own procedures). As for prices....I know what our company charged the OEM, and I know what they sold them to the end user for.....now those really were telephone numbers! | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 329 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hi all. Thanks for the many and varied comments regarding engine rebuilds. Would it be useful if we offered a warranted recon motor for 308 using mostly Genuine parts ? What would be most popular, 2 or 4 valve ? Thanks all. | ||
| Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member Username: Andyilles Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gentlemen, gentlemen... NOS means "new OLD stock", which means somebody had this stuff in storage for years or decades. STOP whining if something needs simple cleaning - Be GLAD its available!! Comprende?!?! My guess is the whiners cab find their parts at Wallmart. | ||
| JohnR. (Rivee)
Junior Member Username: Rivee Post Number: 237 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jeff, getting back to your original post, I just rebuilt my motor in my 308. I bought the rebuilt short block (new pistons & liners) and gasket set from T. Rutlands.....$5,500. New SS valves, guides, seals, springs, machining work...$1,900. New clutch, PP, TO bearing, pilot bearing, belt tentioners, water pump, dist. caps, rotors, and misc.....!1,800.00. Total....$9,200.00 | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 718 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hey, its not personal, they are doing a great service, particularly to the US but I stand by my view that the parts have clearly been poorly treated WRT storage, in many cases over many years. Of course thats not Jeff or any of his colleagues fault, its legacy blame, but its todays status, which to me has BIG �/$ implication, I didn't see evidence of that in SOME of the recent prices quoted, particularly cranks etc I have an issue with packaging and handling parts in general and the images I see typify how not to do it. I'm fed up of years of buying items (for not just cars but most other items) and having to return them to vendor for them to try again to get me a spare that looks any better than the one I have just binned! If its stickered takes account for that then fair enough but I don't see that here. | ||
| Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member Username: Gyrokeith Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff.. If they could see the deflection of their own "perfect" crankshaft during rpm changes, they would cringe! But I would try and store them standing on end. They tend to stay straighter. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2842 Registered: 12-2000 |
Sagging crankshafts? You have got to be kidding dude! I suppose you would expect them to be hand-delivered to your door wearing white-gloves...  | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 221 Registered: 4-2002 |
In the defense of Ferrari-UK, I have bought many hard BB parts from them over the last few years... All of the parts received were in excellent condition and preserved well. One of the nicest things about dealing with these gentlemen is that they don't pull the line "we the only ones that have the parts you're looking for"...and then jack up the prices (far above Ferrari retail) as I've experienced at some of the US-based independent parts distributors. In addition, they make the effort to locate parts and actually get back to you...even if they can't locate the parts. No shameless plug here...just the facts. To be very honest, they made owning a BB a much more rewarding experience...and taken 99% out of the hassle finding parts for this rare bird. David | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2002 |
I agree with Dave, the parts are expensive and should be in in A1 Condition. The parts are not well packed and should be sold under second prices. | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 383 Registered: 10-2002 |
I agree with Dave, the parts are expensive and should be in in A1 Condition. The parts are well packed and should be sold under second prices. | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 324 Registered: 12-2002 |
OK. I'm not going to get into an argument about this issue ! We obviously each have our opinions which is fine. All I would add is that if any of our customers are supplied with less than satisfactory goods I'm sure we'll hear from them ! Input please from y'all ! Cheers | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 713 Registered: 4-2002 |
My view on what I think they should do to verify good to go, not your view as vendor of what they would need to do. Big diff. e.g. some of your exposed bearings should be replaced, hardly just a clean etc, the cam bearing areas will likely have suffered damage as they are unprotected. The incorrectly supported crankshafts will have sagged over the years, being in the aerospace Engineering business with our fastidious approach to engine part cleanliness and storage I could go on in reams and will if you wish. | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 323 Registered: 12-2002 |
Good morning all.
I see where you are trying to come from Dapper, but I'd hardly call a steam clean, degrease and meticulous check a rework ! :-) | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 711 Registered: 4-2002 |
Agreed, obviously, but my argument was that if they have to rework your 'new' parts its not a suprise they will often choose (where possible) to rework what they already have, up to quite a high machining dollar value wrt costs quoted In response to your query at thread start | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 320 Registered: 12-2002 |
Robert - 44 1784 486260 Call me with your enormous parts order !! JH | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 158 Registered: 2-2002 |
jeff, just save it we will find a use for it someday, and the price will keep going up like real estate. Do you have a phone # there? | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hi all. It is probably obvious to all that we have inherited/bought a HUGE amount of obsolete parts from the Factory. They have all arrived here in different states of gift wrap ! Some parts have arrived in their original Factory wrappers and boxes while others it is probably accurate to say, have appeared here in less than perfect packaging. It's worth mentioning too that when we photograph stuff often we have to pull it out and uncover it to get at it, so the picture isn't necessarily a true representation of actual storage conditions. Two comments really about this; Although the bulk of the stock arrived in 2001 we are still working our way thru it and repackaging where needed. Remember there was 51 tons arrived then !! Quite a challenge !! I don't think it would have been right to have not offered any of this stuff for sale while we were still sorting it. You will see pictures below of the brand new Ferrari boxes still to be filled ! Dare say, some of you will want to buy one....!? Any engine builder worth his/her weight in conrods would de-swarf, steam and thoroughly inspect any new major assemblies such as cranks, blocks and heads prior to assembling in a performance engine, in my opinion ! Anyway...who wants to buy a block then !! Cheers.   | ||
| Raymond A. Castelhano (Oglmlw)
New member Username: Oglmlw Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jeff, I don't understand why did not give us a better view of the heavy stuff. That is all MrC | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 705 Registered: 4-2002 |
Agree, not many will plump for new hard parts, especially at the prices mentioned in this thread, There's a shed load of re-engineering can be had for a fraction of the telephone numbers quoted (and many of the 'new' parts will need re-engineering in any case. Further, I'm not that convinced of the condition of the parts shown here, many of the parts clearly haven't been looked after over the years as they should have been, particularly in view of their perceived high shelf value. I can see poorly supported blocks/heads etc, open bearings that don't appear to have any protective lubricant on them, let alone covers to stop the large grit getting in. The presentation is like some sort of Autojumble where its all thrown into a van at the end of the day, then dragged back out the following weekend. Apreciate you are offering a great service to many needy, and you probably 'inherited' the parts to form the new business so you are having to deal with it as it was found, but for them to have evidently been treated with such disregard for so many years then suggest they are worth the values listed as though they are 'new' is folly. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 547 Registered: 5-2002 |
When I had my engine apart, all the bearings were toast, but the crank measured measure with in the factory new spec thanks to the nitrate coating....my guess is you'd have to really break something to need a new one. The block has drop in liners, so again they should live for nearly ever. My problem has with the heads, the guides were shot, but when I knocked them out, the hole in the head galled. I had to rebore all the guide holes and have oversize guides made, but ever at that, it was still a small fraction the cost of new heads. New hard parts are usually pretty hard to justify. Gaskets, bearings, seals, springs, bolts, .....those will always be is demand | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 314 Registered: 12-2002 |
Raymond - not sure where you're coming from or going to with your post; not with you ! :-) Glad to hear we've helped you out in the past though ! | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 313 Registered: 12-2002 |
Mitchell - one o' those lovely 2V cranks, #128794 is $3316. So you'd all refurb your existing components rather than buy new ? Except for the obvious bits ?! Thanks. | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 312 Registered: 12-2002 |
Dave - we have plenty of 'hard' parts for 250. If you like I can peel off a report showing everything we have for 250, all deriviatives, and send it to you in Excel...? Let me know. Cheers | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 598 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hmmmmm the guys at TRutlands here in Atlanta will sell you all the 308 engine parts, or entire engines rebuilt on exchange, for pretty reasonable money. I think they get around $8K for a fully rebuilt 2V 308 engine on exchange. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1615 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeff Do you have any P4 heavy parts? I am a serious buyer. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 551 Registered: 11-2001 |
We regrind the crank, line bore the case, buy new bearings, flatten the deck, cut the liner tops, do a valve job, and reassemble. How much for one of those lovely 2V carb 308 crank shafts? | ||
| Raymond A. Castelhano (Oglmlw)
New member Username: Oglmlw Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2003 |
Please excuse me - I have a lot of respect for Ferrari UK who have helped us out of a hole many times - the pics remind me of buying booze from the bootleggers. They pry open the top of a crate, there is saw dust in there and the top of one bottle showing. The guy hands you the one bottle to examine. If you ask to see the entire case or if you ask to count the bottles they shoot you. What ever you tell us is in that stuff, that is what is in there! We believe !!! MrC | ||
| Dave Helms (Davehelms)
Junior Member Username: Davehelms Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is it mostly late model (308 and up)?, or do you have 250 hard parts? | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 306 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hi all. So as you all know we've been posting pictures of lovely engine blocks, heads and pistons etc here...and my question is...what do you guys in the 'States do for engine rebuilds ? Do you rework everything, cranks, heads etc ? What about camshafts and pistons; can these be bought cheaply over there ? Do blocks often go ? or do you get rods thru the side ? We need a home for some of our 'heavy' stuff...!   |