| Author | Message | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
|
I know this is probably obvious to you but maybe not to some: Don't forget you can use your voltmeter to check to see where the voltage drop is -- if you can pinpoint where the voltage is, you should be able to find the high resistance connection that's causing the problem. Check between the + on the battery and the 12V term on the motor -- ideally voltage should be zero when motor is operating. Then check between the - terminal of battery and the neg (return) on the motor. Once you find out where the rest of the 12V is being dropped, you can trace backward until you find it and then fix the connection. I've seen old fuses have high resistance connections as well as relays cause this problem. Grounding thru the frame/door connection is obviously not a good way. If this turns out to be the high resistance connection, you may want to run another grounding wire thru the harness. Just be sure you use a very flexible multi-strand wire. | ||
| Paul308qv (Paul308qv)
|
Kurt, best of luck. It sounds like you have done your homework. I agree that anything less than 12 volts at the end of the circuit is certainly a problem. I look forward to your results. p.s. I have heard people suggest silicone spray lubricant for the window tracks (rubber & felt). This won't help your voltage drop but may help mechanically as you finish your project. | ||
| Kurtk
|
Hi there Paul308QV and others - The window mechanism on the 328, to which I am referring, is quite different from the 308 - no cables, but a more modern system with a "push-pull" cable running inside rigid tubes. I have no doubt that you are right that the lubricant can be the sole problem. FYI I just checked the voltage for the motors at the switches in the left door. Left motor receives 10.5 volts (window runs quite slow) and the right one 9.5 (window runs very slow and stops midway, when the friction against the rubber seals builds up). Battery voltage is close to 12V, engine not running. Grounding for both windows, left powerlock and left mirror motor is done inside the left front door - not as any other manufacturer would do, outside at a solid grounding point. This means that the system has to rely on a good connection through the hinges and/or the door strap. Anyway, I will return with the results of my SmartWindows experiments. brgds Kurt | ||
| Paul308QV |
To avoid confusion, I had a typo in the middle of my previous post. I meant to say 'with the cables dangling', not 'without the cables dangling'. Sorry | ||
| Paul308QV |
Kurt, before we get to my remarks, please believe me that I can fully see how a voltage drop can be the problem and I was prepared to go there if my 'lubricant' process didn't work. I have heard others document very similar experiences to what you describe. For the sake of educating the readers of this forum, I feel confident that my particular story confirms that the 'sticky lubricant' can be the sole source of the problem. My motor wires were soldered directly to the motor and no masaging could take place since I did not remove and replace the wires (thus cleaning the connections). When I had the motor in my hand without the cables dangling, I pushed the window button and the motor moaned and barely moved, just as it did under load (with the window cabling and window in place). When I opened the gear housing, the lubricant was sticky and hard. I could stick a screwdriver to the lubricant and it would hand there in mid air. It took me 1 hour with solvent to get all of the glue-like material off of the gears. I put new, less viscous lube in its place, closed up the gear housing and again, without being loaded with window hardware, found that the motor spun quickly and freely. Once all together the windows are as fast as my Accord. I look forward to more information on your alternative solution because I am sure it will apply to some owners out there. | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard |
I posted a long time ago that I was about to install a Clifford alarm system in my 328. A module called SmartWindows will be added. This will give added features to the window operation. Check out www.clifford.com. I have finally received this module and will install next week. I will keep you posted on the results. The window wiring, at least on the 328, has ground connection at the left door, also for the right window, which gives long distances and many connections on the way. The SmartWindows thing connects between the existing switches and the motors and supplies current direct from the battery via a built in fuse. The module can be used independant of an alarm system, but in my case I will interface with the alarm to facilitate automatic window closure upon arming (and a few other goodies). In my opinion the main problem with slow windows stems from the electrical aspect. When you are disassembling and assemble the window mechanism for cleaning and relubing I guess that the connectors are "massaged" and maybe even cleaned as well and when put back together again gives a better connection. The result might then be interpreted as if the lube job alone gave the desired effect. Who knows? Anyway, I will install and do no cleaning and then we will see. brgds Kurt By the way, I am not connected with Clifford in any way - I just think that they make good alarm systems. | ||
| Paul308QV |
Here are a few pictures from the recent 'relube' I did on my power windows. One of the hardest parts was getting the cable rewound correctly on the motor drive spool. One of these images shows me using a little mirror to study the winding before I removed and disassembled the motor   | ||
| jerry
|
As I understand the window situation it can be both the grease and the voltages. Norwood Autocraft installs a "booster kit" to fix the problem. Don't know the details but people seem to be pleased with the result. | ||
| Paul 84 308QV
|
It's me again, the guy that started this conversation. With regard to the experience had by 'ifrgt', I have basically heard two stories over the years... One story is exactly like mine...remove and replace 'gummy' grease at the worm gear with fresh white lithium grease and all is well. This is exactly my experience. I have also heard more than a few people say this did not help. I feel there are two possible causes. One is lubricant related and the other has to do with voltage drop at the motors (maybe due to poor connections/wiring). With regard to my process, the motors are hardwired and will not completely leave the door, they will simply hang from their wires while you do the cleanup. Bret, you must remove the old grease with a toothbrush and mineral spirits or other solvents before you replace with new grease. The HARDEST part is getting the cables wound correctly back over the motor spool. My self-made technique(on door #2) was to use two zip ties to keep the cables EXACTLY where they started BEFORE I unhooked everything. This way I could handle all of the parts, do the work and put it back without loosing the winding format. Very tight quarters so I used a soldering iron to 'cut loose' the zip ties when I had everything strung and wound back in place. | ||
| irfgt
|
I removed and cleaned the old hard grease out of my motors and lubed all the pulleys and adjusted everything up and it did not make a damn bit of difference.By the condition of everything inside my doord I would have sworn it would have fixed the situation but it is as slow as it ever was.It is a pretty good project to do as the cable system has to be wound and adjusted perfectly. I honestly believe the voltage is low to the motors. I will experiment with that theory later as my engine is scattered all over my shop and windows are no good when the thing won't run. | ||
| Bret M |
I didn't get as bold as to attack the motor itself yet, but when I took off the door panels to condition the leather I went in and lubed all the guides, cables, pullies, etc. repeatedly (I would lube them, go do something else, and then come back and lube again) with this stuff that is called white grease (it's made by 3M and comes in a spray can). This made a really big difference. The hardened grease in the worm gear seems to be a recurring theme in the topic of slow windows, which makes me think I should go for it and pull it all out to fix it. The motor doesn't strike me as easy to access, How much work was it to get it all out? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
So you took the actual motor apart. Was the existing, original lubricant thick (to make movement slower)? So would this mean you just re-lubed it with thinner grease? I only joined FCA in Aug 2000, shortly after I got my car, so I missed out on this newsletter. Probably the same situation as my power antenna motor. The thing was just packed of corrosion, the plastic wire just coudn't move (didn't help either that the antenna itself had a kink in it). Now it shoots up like the space shuttle on take-off. | ||
| Paul 84-308QV
|
I just wanted to let everyone know that I just completed a procedure to improve the performance of my power windows (and it worked VERY WELL). I know there is info out there (maybe even here on this site) of how to do this, but I used a 'Technical Tip' that appeared in FCA News Bulletin issue 7/99. It is a one-page set of instructions I have been saving since I first saw it. It basically involved removing and replacing the dried lubricant from the worm gear system. I found these instructions to be very helpful and if anyone has questions, please don't hesitate to let me know. |