| Author |
Message |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 853
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hans,
Ran into that with CARFAX when I bought my car which came in from Canada in the early '90s & was titled in NY in '92.
When my son & I first saw my car it still had the Euro speedometer with 39,xxx Km on it. The dealer had to replace it with an US spec odometer set to 22,400 miles - an exact equivalent. He bought the speedo from T.Rutlands(I have a copy of the T.Rutlands receipt), then had it refurbished & recalibrated.
Not long after I bought the car, I ran a CARFAX & they listed 39,000 miles at an estate sale, then 22,400mi 'MA TITLE' and flagged it as an 'odometer roll-back. I went round & round with them. They insisted that the number went on the form as 'mileage' at the estate auction where the dealer bought the car, thus they were correct in indicating a roll-back. I kept pressing them to double check, but they claimed thay had no way of verifying whether or not the car had a Euro speedo at the time of the auction. Also they had no way of checking to see if the form had had 'Km' penciled in instead of miles. They finally just stopped returning my eMAIL.
It irks me no end that there's apparently no appeals process to force them to investigate further than they feel like doing.
In the unlikely event that some day I decide to sell the car, if CARFAX causes me problems with a sale, I'm going to get me an attorney, and probably also a news reporter or two.
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P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 433
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 5:51 am: | |
That is my point. The long arm of the law is what keeps people honest, as that is what it is intended to do. You can put your mileage to anything you want, but you take the liability on resale if you certify the mileage.
If you have an older vehicle, then the odo reading is truly a moot point, as it is not certfied to be correct mileage from the seller.
That is why a prudent buyer knows a red flag, and that a newer car can pass from state to state (there is a list)in a short period of time after a odometer roll back. That is called title washing and it happens all the time. F-cars move around the country. Ford Taurus don't. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 1530
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 6:41 pm: | |
Not true on all cars, Tommy. Definitely not in the ECM. Most definitely not. On cars with electronic speedo/odos, there is a separate speedo processor. But, many cars still have a mechanical odo, altho often triggered electrically. (Even the ancient 'Dino'saur has this!) And we are an agent for the Department of Motor Vehicles, and get frequent routine audits. So if we are screwing up, so are all of the auditors!
And, yes, funny JRV. Unfortunately, on vehicles over 10 years old, most states could care less about the mileage. They don't even record it, which I find to be a bit of a bummer on my documented low mileage car. My title says "Mileage Unknown", even tho the title app included a Certified Odometer Statement. So, altho fraudulent, you can do anything to older cars and probably never get caught. |
Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
Junior Member
Username: Tommya
Post Number: 115
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 5:55 pm: | |
JRV,
This is exactly what I"m saying. Do it ( honestly ) and don't report it.
HANS,
You might be doing this on a daily basis BUT. As you mention (How do you think replacement speedos are installed? Put the new one in with zero miles? NOT!!) On today's modern vehicles the mileage is being registered on the ECM. When you replace the odo in most cases the mileage will start where it left there for it's not tampering by replacing it. We are talking about a vehicle that the odo can be very easily tampered by anybody !!!!! |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 5:50 pm: | |
Of course the good news is, generations and generations of used Ferrari buyers will have the luck of buying very low mileage cars, over and over and over.
When I'm ninety (if I live that long) a high mileage Ferrari will still only have 29,998 miles on it (with the 30K just done of course).
How about a group buy on tires with a free speedo thrown in with every new set? |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1761
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
I think this inaccurate speedo reading situation has occured to many, many owners of 308's especially but across the board generally and the concensus seems to be that the only fair thing "FOR A SELLER" to do is roll the mileage back in the interest of fairness and maximizing marketability. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 430
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 3:44 pm: | |
Three points:
1) You can drive around with any number you want on your odometer. There is no law against that. But, it is illegal to defraud someone.
2) When you sell your car, YOU are certifying the mileage to be true and correct, (unless you check the box indicating that it is not the actual mileage.) So if you are not the original owner, then there is some ambiguity already. Go ahead and set your odometer to whatever you guesstimate the "correct" mileage to be, and sign away!
3) Using that logic, if my tires were SMALLER than the stock profile then my odometer would also be reading too high. Should I pull my speedo and re-adjust it? I am not, although at a 10% variance at 20 K it will be 2K too high.
I like to cover my a.. in this law suit happy world we live in. That is just me.
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Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 1526
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 2:16 pm: | |
I should mention, however, a serious problem with Carfax. They can/will royally bugger up this situation. I've seen it many times in cars brought in from Canada, where the original odo reading is erroneously recorded as miles, not kilos, and then when the odo is reset (legally, with DMV documentation), the new mileage shows lower than the previous mileage. Looks fraudulent on the report, when in fact nothing is wrong. (BTW, we are REQUIRED to install and properly set odos on imported cars with metric readings.)
This also happens with regularity in new cars that have a dual/switchable mile/km readout. The Canadian documents will show kilos, the US documents will show miles. It's just a simple push of a button on newer electronic odos to switch back and forth, but the difference in the numbers (and lack of proper labeling miles .vs. km) really screws up the works. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 1:56 pm: | |
Tommy: You're TOTALLY wrong. We do this work nearly every day. As long as the odo is set accurately, it's not fraud, and won't violate the warranty on new cars.
How do you think replacement speedos are installed? Put the new one in with zero miles? NOT!! |
Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member
Username: Paulie_b
Post Number: 371
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 1:54 pm: | |
I agree with Tommy A. Recalibrate or replace the speedo to the correct mileage, the speedo shop will probably give you a receipt with the propoer mileage on it as well as a label on the speed itself indicating the update. I would not set it back to zero that would only create suspicions down the road. keep it honest. |
Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
Junior Member
Username: Tommya
Post Number: 114
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
P Thomas
He can't take it with DMV. As I stated they will brandt the title as TMU.
Hans,
This is a BIG deal.It's concidered fraud and it is a Felony. |
C.C.ofAtlanta (Atlantaman)
Junior Member
Username: Atlantaman
Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 12:28 am: | |
i have the same problem with one of my speedos--recently I took a 500 mile trip and it recorded almost 900 miles |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 1521
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:40 pm: | |
P. Thomas: It's not fraud if you are not doing anything fraudulent!! Setting it to an honest number isn't fraud. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 428
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:24 pm: | |
Uh, setting it to whatever you want is your perogative. Odometer fraud is a Felony. Stephen sounds as if he wants to do it the legit way as to not cause problems in the future. Many speedo shops will not "roll" odometers anymore, as this may be used to defraud a Buyer. The right way to do it is to certify with the DMV, after is "adjusted". |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:09 pm: | |
Palo Alto Speedo should be able to recalibrate, no problem. What's the big deal? They should be able to set it to whatever you need. I think you guys are WAY overcomplicating this whole thing. |
Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
Junior Member
Username: Tommya
Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 9:40 pm: | |
Stephen,
Being in the industry I have the following advice to you. (Possibly the only thing to do)
Get a new Speedo and a have a professional shop calibrate it to the exact mileage. If you take it to Ferrari they will report it to DMV and they will Brandt the title as TMU (true miles unknown) or NAM (not actual miles which is the same). This will follow your vehicle for the rest of its life and will hurt the resale value. The same thing has happened with my 308 when the Speedo was replaced years ago by Ferrari. I do have all the documents and have been fighting with DMV and Auto check to correct it with out any success. Go for it and don�t let anybody know what happened.
Good luck
Tommy A
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Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Junior Member
Username: Andrewg
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 4:39 am: | |
Stephen, I've done the same thing with my 911 originaly read in kmh, I changed the face of the gauge to read MPH but the mechanical parts are still in KMH, think the only way to do this is to get a KMH face, put a new US gauge in the car then when you come to sell it include the KMH gauge. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1726
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 4:34 am: | |
>>Disconnect the speedometer, until you get the problem fixed.......say, in about 5 years. HAHA
This seems to be an acceptable practice, from what I have seen when looking to buy a used Ferrari. <<
I thought all the Ferraris had such low miles because they were all sitting around in museums.
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stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member
Username: Balataboy
Post Number: 454
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:46 am: | |
Stephen,
This doesn't make sense. Do you mean that at some point the miles were caculated and then your euro speedo was altered/changed to reflect that number? If so, that's not a "conversion" but rather mis-representing the actual mileage on your odometer. It sounds like you need to buy a US speedo, calculate the miles and set the odometer to that number. Or, buy a new US speedo, leave it at 0 and record the actual mileage from that point forward.
There is no way I know of to "convert" a Euro speedometer to start calculating miles. If you want to know what the miles are, you need a US speedo.
Other thoughts? |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 814
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:48 pm: | |
Disconnect the speedometer, until you get the problem fixed.......say, in about 5 years. HAHA
This seems to be an acceptable practice, from what I have seen when looking to buy a used Ferrari.
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Stephen A. Thompson, II (Sat4re)
New member
Username: Sat4re
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 8:55 pm: | |
I have an '85 Euro 308. I have all the records, including when the odometer was converted from kilometers to miles (several years after its arrival in the U.S.). The problem is, the thing was corrected to miles, but continues counting in kilometers! As it currently stands, the car should have approx. 28,000 miles, but reads that it has 33,500 (no, that's not the correct miles/kilometer relationship, but remember it was corrected to miles and has been counting forward since then in kilometers). What should I do? How can I fix this? Can I have it corrected to actual mileage, or do you think I'll have to start from where it currently reads and go forward in miles? I've already informed my insurance co. about the problem so that they don't think I'm overdriving my pleasure use vehicle. According to how the odometer reads, I've put 6000miles on it since last November, but I've really only gone about half that!!! Please help!!! I don't want my car to be reading 50k when it only has 30k something on it! Thanks in advance for your comments. |