| Author | Message | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, I finally got around to getting the fuel mixture adjusted. Turns out it was just a bit on the lean side so I richened it up just a bit. I agree that resorting to an electrical band-aid was not the solution. With that done and verifying that all the other systems are functioning properly, it now runs FANTASTIC! Starts right up and idles smooth at cold high idle and also as it drops down to warm idle. Performance seems to be better than ever. Thanks Steve! | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, Thanks again for your input. I know a guy who has a BMW repair facility, so I'm going to have him put it on his gas analyzer and check it out. He always gets irritated when I bring him anything other than a BMW but after some persuading he's going to allow me to hook it up and work along with him. I will update the results. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1940 Registered: 1-2001 |
I've got a cheapy DIY CO meter and a couple of vacuum gauges (plus some knowledge of O2 sensor output behavior) which I think would be the minimum equipment needed to follow the TR WSM KE instructions. I can't recall if you mentioned your total mileage from new, but needing/making a tweak after 17 years doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. It might all be OK (or as OK as it can be), and the remaining problem(s) is(are) elsewhere, but I'd sure confirm/deny this before resorting to "modifications" -- JMO. | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, I would have to agree with that. I was curious as to what was exactly going on. It does not appear that the FD's have ever had the mixture messed with (factory plug in the hole). Do you think that perhaps a minimal adjustment to each FD at a time would be a good place to start and see how it reacts? Or should I leave this to a shop with a gas analyzer? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1938 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- I believe you're just "fooling" the injection ECUs into thinking that the throttle is at the WOT condition so the mixture is richened up a bit by increasing the current to the EMAs (under the assumption the Driver is asking for maximum power so rather than targeting a 14:1 AF ratio it adds the extra current to add extra fuel and get a ~13:1 AF ratio). Long-term -- no idea of the consequences, but since added fuel seems helpful, I'd be surprised if just a static richness tweak to the FD units wouldn't give the same result (and not potentially muck up the warm-running mode like a constant WOT signal to the injection ECus might). In the cold-running mode, the KE runs open-loop just like a K system (except rather than the warm-up regulator pressure causing the FD to add richness, the injection ECU sends extra current to the EMA on the FD to add richness), so I'd do the "mechanical" airflow/mixture/balance tweak-up/verification before resorting to an "electrical" band-aid -- JMO. | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2003 |
Well here is the latest update. I replaced the temp switch and went back through all the checks. Everything checks out as it is supposed to except the wire for the throttle microswitch, relay D, pin 86. At idle the voltage is sometimes at 6V and sometimes at 12V. When the throttle is opened it goes to 0V like it is supposed to. Now at start up when it is cold it no longer does the excessive up and down idling. It starts up at 1500 rpm and then immediately drops to 800 rpm and seems to kind of chug there for a couple of minutes before it starts to run a bit better. Well I kept messing with it and thought perhaps the throttle micrositch is not making good contact at the closed throttle position. I jumped the wire at pin 2 to pin 18. There was no change at start up when cold. Then just for the heck of it I jumped pin 3 to pin 18 and what do you know, the car now acts exactly the way I think it should. It starts right up at 1500 rpm and slowly drops down to 1000 rpm as it warms up with smooth idle the whole way. Once warm it idles better than it ever has and the car runs out great. When the car is warm or hot it still starts up and idles better than it ever has. So, is there any harm in leaving it this way since it has taken care of every idle irritation I have had with the car so far? | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2003 |
I agree also on the exhaust configuration. It sure runs out a lot nicer now but I still want to install a TUBI....I ordered the temp switch from GT Car Parts. The prices are usually fair. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1919 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- Thanks for the feedback (both on the water temp switch and the exhaust configuration -- it would be a little crazy IMO to have intact pre-cats but no regular cats). Where did you source the switch? | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2003 |
No luck on finding an alternative for the thermoswitch. There is no manufacturer's stamp on it and the numbers stamped around it are 8516 9057 106 63/36. I realize the last numbers are the temps that the switch operates but I don't recognize anything else. I should hopefully have the new switch in today. | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, Thanks for the additional info. I will pull the switch this evening and see if anything is engraved on it. Maybe I will get lucky and find a compatible replacement locally. The car has test pipes fitted in place of the cats and the pre-cats are gutted. Free flowing all the way through except for the factory muffler that is. No emission testing here. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1907 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- The TR water temp switch is Ferrari PN 125878 (and the Cu sealing washer is PN 10260060). Unfortunately (unlike the water temp thermistor and thermo-time switch), I don't know if it's a Bosch brand part which could be sourced more inexpensively from a non-F part supplier -- if anyone knows brand/brand PN for the TR water temp switch please post (it might be engraved on the switch body itself). Agree that you should do a little normal running before deciding if further work/tweaks are necessary. I'd even suggest that you run 10~15 gals of fuel treated with a can of Chevron Techron Injector Cleaner thru the system before reevaluating. By the way, when you said it is "fitted with test pipes" does that mean for both the pre-cats and cats or just for the cats? -- i.e., are the pre-cats still intact and mounted on your TR? Dave -- Mille grazie for the kind words. When I first bought my TR I was (naively) hoping that I'd not need to become so familiar with it's technical details (since unlike my ex-308, it was not a high-mileage car) -- obviously, it didn't work out that way  ... | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1036 Registered: 5-2001 |
I been following this thread for the past few days....Wow, Steve, you the MAN! | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2003 |
Uhh.....Duh Well I guess my head wasn't quite screwed on right yesterday. I found the correct sensor and yes it is bad. It's staying open all the time, so I went ahead and jumped the two wires and started the car. It ran considerably better although still a little rough. I then went through all the steps again and they all checked out correctly. The car has spent a bit of time just idling so I think I will replace the sensor and run the car again down the road and see how it reacts after a couple of days. Once the switch is replaced I will go back through the checks again to verify everything is still working properly. What is the part number for that switch? I can't say thanks enough. You have been a tremendous help Steve and I now I have learned a lot more about the operation of my car. I think I owe you a beer or something..... | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1901 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- I think you've got the wrong sensor! The water temperature thermistor has an orange/white wire and an orange/red wire in a 2-pin connector (sometimes the orange and red colors aren't very different) next to the thermo-time switch. The water temp switch is on the side of the thermostat housing with the male spade terminals pointing to the LH side. Each wire has a single female spade connector. The thermo-time switch will seem "closed" after starting (unless very warm I believe), but that's not a problem. The BL (white/blue) wire on the thermo-time switch only goes +12V during starter cranking. The RV (red/green) wire leaving the thermo-time switch to open the cold start injectors only should go +12V during the first few seconds of cranking. After cranking, there's no +12V on the BL wire so even though the thermo-time switch is closed, the cold start injectors are closed. | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, Found the temperature switch and it has one orange wire and one orange wire with a white stripe. They both had about 4.5V and dropped as the car warmed up. With the car shut down I performed a continuity check and did not find any wire in the box that had a direct connection to either wire on the thermo switch. I checked the resistance on the switch prior to starting and found it to be at 2k ohms. Once warmed it dropped to 300 ohms. Also I checked the red wires on the oddball relay and through the plug and both at 12V. Also the thermo time switch seems to be staying closed even when the car is warmed up. Shouldn't it open once warmed up? I just replaced the damn thing. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1898 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- The tests are in a "sequenced" logic, so once you failed test #1 it makes sense that the following tests would be wacky (i.e., test #1 is looking for the +12V power that will drive the events in the following tests). Find the water temperature switch (IIRC, it's on the same thermostat housing as the thermo-time switch and its location is shown in the OM). It will have a red wire on one spade terminal and an orange/black wire on the other spade terminal. The relevant things to look for (everything plugged in) are : A. The red wire & terminal should be +12V whenever the engine is running (cold or hot) -- if not, there's a wiring problem from the (oddball, fused) relay C terminal 87 (two red wires) thru the C12 (large round) connector to the water temp switch red wire. B. With the engine running, the orange/black wire should be +12V cold and 0V hot -- if it's always 0V or always +12V, the water temp switch is probably bad. C. If the voltage measurements made at the water temp switch seem OK, but Relay D terminal 87a doesn't go +12V when things are cold and the orange/black wire & terminal of the water temp switch are at +12V, then you've got a wiring problem from the orange/black wire at the water temp switch thru the C12 connector to Relay D terminal 87a. If the water temp switch turns out to be bad, as an experiment you can manually hook the red wire to the orange/black wire (with a male-male adapter) to simulate the "cold" switch-closed condition and do a cold start just to see what happens (just remember to unhook the wires when the water temp gauge gets to about 140~150 deg F). You might get out of this relatively easily , but get test #1 working before revisiting tests #2-#5. | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, I went through each step when the car had set all night and was completely cold. Here is what I found: <<#1. Checking hot/cold water thermoswitch cold mode Start engine cold (water less than 36 deg C) Measure voltage on Relay D terminal 87a (one orange/black wire)-- should be +12V when coolant has gone below 36 deg C to close thermoswitch (and stay +12V until coolant is warmer than 63 deg C to open thermoswitch). >> 87a stayed at 0.0V throughout the entire warmup phase <<#2. Check oil thermoswitch If the oil temp has not gone below about 5 deg C or is above 15 deg C the oil thermoswitch should be also be closed. Measure voltage on Relay A pin 85 (one orange/red wire) -- should be also be +12V when the Relay D terminal 87a is at +12V unless the oil is very cold. >> 85 stayed at 0.0V throughout the entire warmup phase <<#3. Check Relay A is sending the "I'm cold and running my air pump" ground signal to the injection ECUs. When you verify Relay A pin 85 is at +12V in step #2 above (water cold, oil not too cold), measure the voltage on Relay A pin 87b (two violet wires) -- should be a good ground (e.g., well less than 0.4V) >> 87b stayed at 10V throughout the entire warmup phase <<#4. Check system ground (this can be done hot or cold) Measure any of: Relay D pin 85 (two black wires) Relay A pin 30 (two black wires) Relay A pin 86 (two black wires) should be a good ground (e.g., well less than 0.4V). >> All the grounds were good <<#5. Confirm throttle microswitch operation (this can be done hot or cold): Measure voltage on Relay D pin 86 (two brown/white wires) -- should be +12V at idle and near ground when the throttle plates are opened. Alternatively (if the D relay itself is still OK), you should be able to feel/hear the D relay click "on" when at the idle position and click "off" when you slightly open the throttle. >> 86 was at 6.8V and went to 0V when the throttle plates were opened. <<#6>> Both had zero voltage the entire time Hmmm��I think I have a problem | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve Mine is set up with O2 sensors and has the stock TR silencer on it. It no longer has the air pump nor the thermo sensors that run the "slow down" lights. It is fitted with test pipes. I will run through your checks and get back with you. Thanks | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1895 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- If you have a stock (non-flow separated I believe) TR silencer, I'm not sure that result is significant. Is your's the stock US TR silencer or a Tubi, Borla, etc.? As a US version TR it should be KE-Jetronic with lambda (i.e., with O2 sensors), so you could try verifying some of the input signals to the injection ECUs as described in this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/227910.html I believe #3, #4, and, #5 could possibly have some effect on the cold-running (but they don't explain the actual internal operation of the injection ECUs well). You'll be lucky if it's anything this easy, but at least you can rule them out and it's not too difficult as a place to start (also gives you the chance to check the C12 and C13 round connectors on the triangular black box). | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve, They both seem the same during the dip. | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2003 |
Steve It is a 1986 US model. KE Jetronic I believe. I'm not sure whether it is sans lambda or lambda though. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1894 Registered: 1-2001 |
Brian -- My TR (thankfully) does not have this odd cold start-up running behavior, but what version (US, CH, GB, etc.) and/or injection system (K-Jet, KE-Jet with lambda, KE-Jet sans lambda) do you have? (If you've got a "separated flow" silencer,) Can you feel/detect one bank dropping out and coming back at the exhaust tips when you're having the problem, or do both exhaust flows seem the same during the dip? | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks guys. It's nice to know that mine isn't the only one that does this and it seems to be a common characteristic. I guess I'm just a bit particular. There has been a few times that it fired up cold and ran beautifully. I guess I was just trying to get it to act that way every time. Perhaps I'm asking too much. | ||
| Preston Davis (Pdavis)
New member Username: Pdavis Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2003 |
My 1988.5 TR does the exact same thing. After 90 seconds on the first start of the day it settles down and is never a problem --- until the next first start of the day. pd | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 777 Registered: 4-2001 |
Brian, Its the first start of the day for a 12 cylinder, does not sound like a problem to me. Not all cylinders wake up and fire at the same time when cold. Mine does this every so often since I have had it - always only on the very first start of the day when real cold. What I do is start and press the accelerator and hold at 1200 - 1500 for 1 minute and then it idles perfectly thereafter. Again, what you mention on the first start of the day does not sound like an issue because 12 cylinders need to wake up. Now if it happened on every start even when warm then you have a problem. Be careful chasing gremlins that do not exist. Michael | ||
| Brian Wasinger (Bpwasi)
New member Username: Bpwasi Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2003 |
To start off with I have followed along on quite a number of posts throughout this forum and the information has been GREAT! I have researched archives and have followed instructions listed but have yet to take care of my problem. So here it goes. When I start the car in the morning it immediately fires up and revs to 1500 RPM. It stays there for 2 seconds then drops to 500 RPM and chugs for about 4 seconds. It then revs back up to 1500 and runs smooth for a couple of seconds and then back down for 4 seconds. It continues this for 90 seconds and then idles fine. The car has plenty of power and never stalls or drops below 1000 RPM once warm. The car also starts up warm with no problem and idles fine. The fuse box was pulled and all connections cleaned and checked for good contact. Thermal time switch and auxiliary air valves have been replaced. The entire intake has been checked for vacuum leaks and is good. The sensor plates on the fuel distributors were checked for position and found to be good. I also balanced each back according to the WSM. After all my work the car idles and runs out great.....except for the first 90 seconds when cold. Any ideas? |