| Author | Message | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 865 Registered: 5-2001 |
Should be find. Dare I ask if the cam cover clears it? - Always the pessimist... | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 675 Registered: 2-2002 |
Looks like I did not drill the hole deep enough, but it torqued down to 7.8 lbs and the Heli coil is in. I think I'm happy. I'd says it is 1/8 of an inch taller than the other studs on the head, but I think the torque wrench told the tale, it's tight enough. Thanks for everyone's help. Here's the pics.   | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 857 Registered: 5-2001 |
NAHHH, I want the roast beef 'debris' & gravy over potatoes for breakfast.. Glad you found it tho. Was gonna rag you about not stuffing shop towels or something all around the work area so that drilling chips, etc. couldn't fall down into the drain holes. I just didn't have the heart tho. Dave, I agree with you. there are a lot of oil passages & a helicoil couldn't get sucked thru the pickup screen. Aluminum drilling chips can tho. The'll be small enough so that they shouldn't hurt the oil pump gears, but could jam the pressure regulator open. Other than that the oil filter should take care of anything that gets past the screen. Where you really don't want them is on the output side of the oil filter. | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 671 Registered: 2-2002 |
I bought a new pencil magnet at Sears tonight. I guess my old magnet which was pased to me from my father just was not good enough anymore. The new magnet found it under the cam shaft right next to the cam lobe. So, it did not fall into the oil hole as I had feared. thanks to everyone for all your advise. I got a 90 degree drill the right lenght of drill bit and i'm ready to drill tomorrow night. Wish me luck. Oh I stuff rags in all those oil holes. HAHA Oh and Verrell, you don't want a PO BOY at Mother's, you want the blacken ham for breakfast. Also, we were on the Florida gulf caost this weekned and an nice Walmart man from Boston checed us out. He was so mad that we bought lobsters and crab boil. Oh well, I love lobster boiled in crab boil THX Kelly | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2002 |
The good news is that the Helicoil is magnetic. The bad news is that you will probably need a .32 hole to get it back out. The interesting news is that it probably won't hurt a thing if you can't get it out. There are lots of other drain passages, and no way is the coil going to get picked up by anything moving in the engine. If you have a magnetic drain plug that might hold it if you can't get it out, or it doesn't come out with an oil drain. I'd try a magnet on a string first, then drain the oil, them not worry too much about it. I certainly would not disassemble the engine. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 855 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kelley, Here's what I'd do in this case: The cam area oil return holes are mostly sand-cast with some boreing up from the sump area. These holes have to return a lot of oil back into the sump! So they're generally over 1/4" diameter thus there's a good chance that the coil will work it's way into the sump. Only question is how quickly. Take a look at the colored diagram in the owner's manual. If you look real close you'll see that the colored marks only cover a portion of the area between the black lines outlineing the return passages. The cam area oil return passageways come down at an angle, the drop almost straight into the sump. I think you're right, start by draining the oil change with a sieve to catch the coil if it comes out with the oil. Next step would be to pull the sump cover & see if it's lodged somewhere inside the sump. If it hasn't shown up, then I'd take the drained oil & pour it thru the passages the coil might have dropped into. Hopefully that will float it down into the sump & into the drip pan you've put there to catch the oil. Next step would be to try blowing compressed air thru the passageways to see if that will dislodge it. It's possible that the oil is sticking it to the side of a passageway, so pour a solvent such as kerosene thru. Then use a coat-hanger or a long piece of #12 gage copper wire as a plumber's snake & see if you can work it thru the passageways. Try blowing air from the sump up thru the passageway to see if it will come out the way it went in. Best to jam rags/paper towels/whatever into all the little nooks & crannies it might hop into when it pops out. Also have someone standing by with a rag to catch it in as it pops out of the passageway. Otherwise it may just find some other place even less accessable to pop into. If any of this works, you owe me a PoBoy at Mothers... (Heheh)... | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 613 Registered: 6-2002 |
Kelly - hard cheese, old chap. Doesn't sound good. First, is the coil ferrite, or is it aluminum? A critical question concerning your magnet trick. Second, before you pull the oil pan, I seriously doubt that the oil passage between the cams communicates directly with the pan. There are oil conduits running the length of the head that would prevent the coil from falling all the way down. Now, the good news. I suggest that you find doctor in town that is a sports car enthusiast. Ask that doctor to refer you to a pediatric gastroenterologist. They will have a small (?10 mm) diameter flexible colonoscope that may allow you to look down into the hole and grab the coil. This is a long shot, as most pediatric gastroenterologists are not going to lend some stranger a $10,000 piece of equipment. Don't worry about getting the scope dirty - I would sooner worry about getting the engine dirty. If you are really in a bind, let me know. I can ship you my scope (I have two old ones I use for this purpose). They are adult scopes, but may fit. Measure the hole and let me know. It is a hassle, but better than pulling an engine. If you have a coil in an oil passage, and do not remove it, it is a definite formula for disaster. Jim S. | ||
| Donny Bridges (Wildcatfans)
Junior Member Username: Wildcatfans Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2001 |
Did you get the bolt repaired? Hopefully you're right about it going all the way through. If you need any help, let me know. I've always wanted to see a 308 engine all the way apart (just kidding)! | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 670 Registered: 2-2002 |
Well it gets worse. I drop a coil in the head between the cams. I think it went down the oil whole all the way to the oil pan. And so on and so on. I got to change the oil anyway I hope it come out. If not I'll get a magnet to pull it out. Kelly | ||
| Bob Briley (Bob_briley)
New member Username: Bob_briley Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2003 |
I'm with JRV. After years of fixing motorcycles, helicoils haven't impressed me. Though this may not be the case for the stud in question, if the aluminum is thin, like on bikes, the Helicoil will expand and crack the aluminum. It then becomes a real mess. I use Timeserts. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1777 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> and therefore is one more step than necessary for this little very low torque application.<< Trying to constanly cut corners and save one more step (2 minutes) historically hasn't worked well on Ferraris. | ||
| DamonB (Prova7)
Junior Member Username: Prova7 Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2002 |
Helicoil is the way to go. They are great and permanent. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 560 Registered: 11-2001 |
Sorry, my coffee did not kick in this morning. I meant, don't use the Timesert for this small application. It requires you to drill a hole, counter-bore it, tap it, and therefore is one more step than necessary for this little very low torque application. More drilling, more bits to clean off in an open engine enrironment like this. In contrast, the helicoil requires only one drill, one tap, and you are home free. The timesert kit is also much more expensive. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1776 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'd go with a Time-Sert. very easy, strong, permanent repair. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 558 Registered: 11-2001 |
Don't use helicoil for this application, it is a lot messier than it has to be. You do need a M6 x 1mm helicoil kit. The drill, the tap supplied are non-standard and you cannot get it outside the kit. This is not that bad. Just make sure cover things up and vaccuum all the bits and pieces off. Oh, forget JB weld, it is only good for 100 in-lbs and probably won't work. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2002 |
Kelly, I had real good luck with these, not sure about your application though. http://www.timesert.com/ | ||
| Paul Wehmer (Pwehmer)
Junior Member Username: Pwehmer Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2002 |
Kelly - I have an M6 heli coil kit. Has the drill and tap for the new threads. Also has the two tools for putting the inserts in. A right hand drill will fit in there. | ||
| MarkM (Zan)
Junior Member Username: Zan Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2002 |
10mm sounds big. I think my 328 was M6x1. This HeliCoil requires 1/4" bit. Double check it before you drill. | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 669 Registered: 2-2002 |
Wish me luck when I drill that 10MM hole. thanks for all the advise. Kelly | ||
| MarkM (Zan)
Junior Member Username: Zan Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2002 |
Had the same prob with my 328 during my 30K. Used helicoil, worked great. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2872 Registered: 12-2000 |
It helps to load up the drill bit & tap with grease - the grease keeps the metal shavings in place (in the flutes of the drill/tap) and does a fine job lubricating the tool. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1902 Registered: 1-2001 |
Kelly -- I think you should be able to make a more reliable heli-coil repair without removing the head if you're careful about vacuuming up the chips during the drilling/tapping -- should be able to buy a kit with the tap, installation tool, and a few M6? (check that size) heli-coils. | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 666 Registered: 2-2002 |
Well I'm almost at the end of a month long process. A 30K, water pump, new ignition rotors mounts and all new seals. Oh and a valve job. A cool grand invested. I was going over the cam cap nuts tonight when I notice one would not tighten down. It just kept tuning, that when I noticed as I had notice before this stud was taller than any other stud in the head. When I took it off, it was out pass the nut by a good couple fo turns. Of course this is the exhaust cam top bolt 19 cap front head. So, I dealing pretty close to the firewall but have about 5 inches of clearce. I put 2 nuts on it and this is what came out. The shinny silver is the Aluminum from the head.  I just had a mechanic warn me not to over tighten these things, that I have to take the head off and put it on a machine to get it retapped. The first thing that pops thru my head is to clean all the aluminum off the studd, fill the hole with JB weld and screw it back in and wait a couple of days. What would you do??? THX Kelly |