| Author |
Message |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 145
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
Bill... for God's sakes... just forget it. You have good numbers now, so whatever happened got fixed correctly. We're not talking virginity here, it can be fixed, and obviously was. So just relax and enjoy the drive. :-) |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member
Username: Craigfl
Post Number: 623
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 6:59 am: | |
I think what we have to remember here is that the "safest" recommendation for an inspector for a PPI is to NOT buy the car. It's instant gratification for the buyer-- "Gee, I'm glad you caught that so I didn't waste my money!" The inspector feels he did his job because he "saved" the buyer from a potential money pit.
I saw this go on in the 80's when home inpections began to be the rage. It took a few years until the inspectors finally understood they were running a business and they needed to INSPECT and present the facts to the buyer so the buyer can make the final decision. Sellers got to know which inspectors were deal killers and either they changed or went out of business. Of course there will always be some opinion inputted by the inspector but the buyer has to understand that the PPI is just one piece of information and they still need to make the final decision.
Since most of us know that a broken timing belt on the car shouldn't be the end of the deal, if it checks out properly, it's just a matter of waiting for the next right person to come along and I'm sure it will be a different inspector. |
rob guess (Beast)
New member
Username: Beast
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:24 pm: | |
Bill;
Even with proper servicing i have seen timing belts, cam chains, rods fail before they have reached there recommended service intervals. I myself have seen a timing belt fail with only 8000 miles(not on a F-Car)With no reason as to why the belt broke.
As long as the damage was repaired I.E. Replace bent valves, Broken Guides, Damaged Pistons and cylinder bores. And the motor has no repeated history of cam belt failures I myself would not be against recomending or purchasing the vehicle.
In my 20+ years of mechanical work building race motors, i have found that often times a rebuilt motor actualy functions better than the original. |
Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Member
Username: Tillman
Post Number: 713
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:17 pm: | |
You could have the bores scoped out with one of those fiberoptic devices, maybe a visual would tell you if there's anything unusual there.
It's been running, so it's bound to be fine.
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Bill White (Nc_newbie)
Junior Member
Username: Nc_newbie
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:11 pm: | |
I definitely have discounted selling this car to this person but I am concerned whether or not (since I am an engineer) my understanding of a potential issue and whether or not it is even a potential issue.
This is the technical section and I have yet to get any technical reason why a broken belt in the history should be a concern.
Maybe some magna-flux on something after pulling the engine would convince me if hair line fracture were present. Maybe xrays of rods for stress. Give me something here... |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 136
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:09 pm: | |
Bill, even if the belt had broken recently with resultant valve and/or piston or cylinder damage, the compression and leak down tests would show it. Having good numbers, PLUS a bunch of miles.. there's nothing to worry about.
Best regards,
Andy |
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 565
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 6:05 pm: | |
Well
Having been the victim of a broken timing belt and valves myself, I think your concerns are over the top. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 451
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:33 pm: | |
Bill again, a PPi is some what of a touchy feely analysis of your car. For example: people judge wear patterns on seat bolsters, peddles, etc to be indicative of the correlation to mileage on "newer" cars. For whatever reason, the mechanic did not recommend your car to the buyer. It is very subjective and I think that trying to sway them over to your side is going to be a big challenge.
I think it may be best to move on. Just my .02.
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P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 450
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:20 pm: | |
Bill that is the inherant "problem" with a PPI. It is someone's SUBJECTIVE opinion. Whether a mechanic's PPI or a trusted friend or aqcuitance, what is the differnce who gave the buyer negative feeedback on your car. There is of course a strong correlation to price. Talk it through and see if any pricing cocessions (if you are willing to do that) would mitigate his concerns.
If not, I think you are best off finding another buyer.
Again, does it really matter WHO advised the buyer to steer away from your car??? |
Bill White (Nc_newbie)
Junior Member
Username: Nc_newbie
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:07 pm: | |
I faxed the potential buyer copies of everything (service history since 1996) in advance and then he decided to get the PPI.
The mechanic told me "the items" he listed in the written report which all sounded fairly minor except for a leaking CAM seal which I would have repaired. The mechanic then said that this was not the car for the buyer which surprised me. The mechanic never told me about this "verbal discussion" he had with the buyer. I told the buyer that I would correct any "new" problems found that we had not already discussed. This, however, is not correctable and he walked away.
I found out about this "verbal discussion" from the prospective buyer--not the mechanic. I felt that something was up since he spent $225 for the PPI. I agreed to split the cost with him since I did not expect to find any problems and wanted a copy of the report. I got a copy of the report and there was a long list of issues. For example he went on about how great the interior looked to me in person but in the report he put that the leather was "stretched but redyed".
It seems that a major issue like this (broken cam belt in the past makes engine suspect and non-repairable)should have been on the written report and sounds speculative and slanderous. To add to the frustration, he forgot to look through the service records and came out as I was leaving and got them. Then he flipped through them in 15-30 seconds and handed them back. Apparently, according to what he said he is a judge for the FCA national concours events.
However, my point is not to bad mouth this guy but to find out if there is any valid concern over a belt break in the history back in 1996 about 5-6K miles ago.
If not then I am going to talk to the mechanic about it to see if potentially the buyer misunderstood what he was saying (but I can not see how that was possible based on what he told me).
Thanks to all for the feed back!
Bill
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Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Member
Username: Tillman
Post Number: 712
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
Well, did the buyer know before they paid for the PPI that a belt had broken? Obviously you knew as the seller, and it is the mechanic's job to tell the buyer what might be problematic on the car. I can understand your frustration as a seller, but as a buyer I'd be irritated if I wasn't told all the potential issues. |
Paul Jeffery (Peajay)
Junior Member
Username: Peajay
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 4:04 pm: | |
My take on this is that it would be easy not to tell you about this and you would be none the wiser, the fact that it has been revealed to you is a good sign. If it was as long ago as mentioned and all looks correct, then it's past history. If you are happy go for it !! |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 765
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
I can understand why you would be upset. That is why I don't think pre-purchase inspections are all that great. It is best to know about them yourself and check the car out for yourself. Many have complained about bad PPIs as well as long lists of items that supposedly needed attention or replacing when they were actually fine. There is no one around my area that I would trust to look at my car. |
Bill White (Nc_newbie)
Junior Member
Username: Nc_newbie
Post Number: 115
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 3:22 pm: | |
It was 5K/5yrs miles ago by a Saab dealership (not the best but no F-dealer in the area of the PO) with reciepts to show (about $10K) and compression and leakdown are fine. I can't see how this should be an issue - sounds like everyone here pretty much agrees.... I was looking for a potential technical reason but I can't think of any? Yea if it was just done then it could have cracked a piston. All other potential issues I would think would be shown by compression/leak down.
I'm going to have a word with the mechanic that scared away a potential buyer of my car because it had a belt break in 1996!!!! Then on top of that it was all verbal not on the PPI report!!!
He was saying the it could have scored a liner and they can not be re-sleved. That's crap because a number of people are resleving them and it would show up on compression/leak down as well.
Bill |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 877
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:43 pm: | |
If the event was several thousand miles ago, and compression/leakdown are fine,engine runs great etc. then chances are the engine is OK. The more miles the better. By 8-10K miles I wouldn't worry.
If it's just been fixed, then it's hard to tell.
Peter called it tho, you're going to have to live with the car. If you're uncomfortable with the risk, walk away. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 764
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:38 pm: | |
It wouldn't stop me from buying the car if I was really interested but it does give rise to the question of how the car was cared for. I would think it was driven hard or not serviced when needed and therefore neglected. I could see where resale could be hard because I would think many buyers would be deterred. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2889
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
It all depends if it can be proven through receipts - and photos too, that all the necessary work was done and parts replaced, then I don't see a problem. I can't say if a dealer did the work would be better than an independant, or vice-versa, since we've seen/heard in the past of major f---ups done by both.
I suppose in the end, if you're concerned in any amount, walk away... There are plenty other cars out there. |
Bill White (Nc_newbie)
Junior Member
Username: Nc_newbie
Post Number: 114
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
If a car has broken a timing belt in the past should this be a concern after it has been repaired. I would think that if bent valves are replaced and head resurfaced then the engine should be fine. If a valve were to break off then I could see a need for a piston or sleve. But if compression and leak down are fine I don't see a reason to be concerned about the pistons and sleves? Thoughts from every one?
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