| Author |
Message |
rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member
Username: Beast
Post Number: 78
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 10:02 pm: | |
Keith;
I was almost ready to call BS on your blasting of the crank bearing journals. But after doing a little bit of research with some fellow engine tuners I have found that, several engine builders do the same thing. The main diference is intstead of bead blasting the journals you can get the same effect with 600-800 grit wet or dry paper on a lathe. The main advantage for using the paper is less chance of oil passage contamination over the bead blasting.
Rob
And if anyone is wondering my favorite assembly lube is Bearing Gard from Clevite 77 |
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
As for surface prep... glass beading pummels the surface like meteors on the moon (or earth, for that matter). In forming that tiny dimple it displaces material around the perimiter, like a crater. A hardened journal is only displaced something like .0004 inches or so. I just chuck it up in the lathe and use strips of 600 to smooth it to the touch. That usually restores it to it's original size, with all these dimples to help form eddy currents in the moving oil. I have been told by others the bead impacts also help "seal" surface cracks and harden the surface. It seems to be a win win situation, and my experience is that it works as advertised. Because I knock off the sharp edges with the 600, it doesn't seem to wear any differently with a dry start. Loading the journals with moly will insure the initial start will cause no wear.
Which brings us back to the moly... After initial running in an engine the oil clears. But where does the moly go? I checked! On the first oil change the clear oil drains with a ribbon of grey mixed in. Moly buildup in the pan floor. Most of that is from our little friend 9.8 meters per sec/ per sec. Gravity causes the particulates with higher specific gravities than oil to settle out. I also find that moly settles in all the nooks and crannies inside the crankshaft area, being thrown out at high speed by centrifical force. But most was inside the oil filter. Much in the way snow can build up several inches on a clothesline, these tiny flakes of moly stack up on the fibres of the filter media.
I use cast iron cylinders and chrome and ductile iron rings. I have never used "moly" rings so I don't know how they work. I also start all engines with a preset high idle. In the tradition of drag racers I take the rpm up imediately and the rings seat in like 30 seconds max. I tuned ear can hear the change in running. The temp goes up fast then drops and stabilizes quickly. I just don't think enough moly gets to the cylinders fast enough to stop the seating process.
Of course chrome rings do seat imediately, part of their alure to racers. Moly is "too" good a lubricant. That's why I cut it with white grease and stp. My whole point is I think I have found the perfect balance of prelube, and it's not for a lack of trying.
I'm sorry but I got to run. I've got some other things to add later.. |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 165
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 1:28 pm: | |
Keith - back to the assembly lube issue for a minute. I dug out some of my old tech literature on moly (MoS2), and will stand by my post to NOT use Moly in an assembly lube.. for the reason I stated; i.e. ring seating. (I have no experience with teflon, but suspect the same problem)
Dow Corning supplies MoS2 for oil additives in Super Fine Grade - .05 to 8 microns, with +75% between 1 and 2.5 microns. Union Carbide quotes the same spec. According to Fram, oil filters are tested at 10 to 20 microns, so they wouldn't even begin to trap "usable size" moly particles.
Moly has the form of "platelets", which have an afinity for metals, and (for our purposes) deposit in layers into the asperites of finished surfaces. Actually, the finer the particle, the better. This is not a "solid" deposit since the platelets slide over themselves and the base metal constantly. The build is typically .0005 to .001", but will build far thicker in asperites until the top layers of platelets begin to get slid around and "leveled off" by friction. They also bond to and slide over the asperite "peaks". This deposition begins immediately, and that's where my problem comes in.
New rings in freshly crosshatch-honed cylinders need (and rely on) a degree of metal-to-metal abrasion to seat-in or they will glaze instead. Moly will prevent that.
AFTER ring seating.. I'll climb your soap box and shout Moly's virtues right along with you. But for assembly/break-in, it's TOO good a lubricant. |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 164
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 11:49 am: | |
Hi Keith,
You got me curious. Question though.. what about dry starts after a car's been sitting a while? That's when the bulk of engine wear takes place, even polished. Also, if you blast, then 600.. wouldn't that alter dimensions substantially? |
Paul Hill (348paul)
Member
Username: 348paul
Post Number: 313
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
Keith,
Interesting stuff regarding the bead blasting of the journals etc. Makes sense when you think about it providing the diameter is not affected. I suppose it gives less contact area, as there are thousands of tiny dimples for the oil to sit in. I suppose its a bit like a bedway on a milling machine that is "scraped" in the old fashioned way - plenty of pockets for the oil - less wear.
Great post.
Paul
|
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 4:21 pm: | |
Sorry about the double post. |
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 4:18 pm: | |
Since we were building primarily 1/4 mile engines, there was a lot of dissassembly and measuring after the initial assembly. I was building "air cooled" VW engines at the time.
The VW cranks I was using were uncounterweighted..It was not unusual to get contact through the oil even at a paultry 6500 rpm. At the time my polishing was almost mirror smooth on the journals. We discussed oil shear, and additives but then someone mentioned dimples on a golf ball. How it more than doubled the flying distance of the ball. I then glass beaded my crank on the journals, smoothed the journals by hand with 600, and assenbled the engine. After 12k miles, hard rpm miles, and many trips to the track, I tore the engine down and found zero crank wear. I was so impressed that I blasted my camshaft and lifter surfaces on the next one. I had some wear problems because of the high rate springs. After the next engines similer mileage and abuse, cam looked like I just put it in. I was so amazed with the difference I've used this process with every engine since. Several others had similer results using this method.
To be fair some others there weren't sure of what was happening so they just polished their journals to a good shine and went with that. (about 1600 like others have said) 2 of these engines were back on the workbench within weeks with bearing problems.
All my tests and all that I do now, 15 years later, use the process I describe. I only use/used BT-08 glass beads. Very fine. I really don't have much of a trick with pistons. For high performance I just run them a bit loose and use total seal rings. Some others in the class used the beading on the skirts and had good results but nothing to write home about. Some pistons are coated with graphite on the skirts from the manufacturers.
I will admit to making the cross hatch on the cylinders a bit steeper than most. It helps the rings turn, and seems to keep the ring grooves a bit cleaner.
For added protection from fatigue failure I heavily bead blast the rocker arms, springs, and connecting rods. I will be more open minded when I break something. It just hasen't happened yet, so I must be doing something right.
I have built or helped build engines of all types. I am not a mechanic, just a hobbiest. When this 308 engine of mine needs tearing down it will be my first Ferrari. The automotive class professor used to always say that an engine didn't know what name was written on the outside. I would assume that a Ferrari engine would respond to the same preparation as any other.
I would also like to add that I just tore down an aircraft engine that was lubricated with Arco Graphite oil for most of it's life. Big mistake!!! I chiseled out about 2 ounces of solidified graphite from all sorts of places inside the engine. I was told by others that using molybdenum disulfide can do the same thing. When I use an additive I stick with Dura-lube. It uses film modifiers instead of particulates. I think Motor-up is similer.
Being young hot rodders we didn't document the evidence of out "experiments" so There isn't anything written down that I know of.
Also, for those of you who saw my posting about using straight water as a coolant, I went out and did some homework by talking to a few builders in my area. 100% water CAN cause corrosion in some engines. It doesn't affect the aluminum. It rusts out steel water lines and fittings. Certain cars are touchy about this (like honda civics). One mechanic that told me this has a "junker" civic that is running mid 11's in the 1/4 mile and passes our states emissions tests. So use a little antifreeze, will ya..
K |
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 4:15 pm: | |
Since we were building primarily 1/4 mile engines, there was a lot of dissassembly and measuring after the initial assembly. I was building "air cooled" VW engines at the time.
The VW cranks I was using were uncounterweighted..It was not unusual to get contact through the oil even at a paultry 6500 rpm. At the time my polishing was almost mirror smooth on the journals. We discussed oil shear, and additives but then someone mentioned dimples on a golf ball. How it more than doubled the flying distance of the ball. I then glass beaded my crank on the journals, smoothed the journals by hand with 600, and assenbled the engine. After 12k miles, hard rpm miles, and many trips to the track, I tore the engine down and found zero crank wear. I was so impressed that I blasted my camshaft and lifter surfaces on the next one. I had some wear problems because of the high rate springs. After the next engines similer mileage and abuse, cam looked like I just put it in. I was so amazed with the difference I've used this process with every engine since. Several others had similer results using this method.
To be fair some others there weren't sure of what was happening so they just polished their journals to a good shine and went with that. (about 1600 like others have said) 2 of these engines were back on the workbench within weeks with bearing problems.
All my tests and all that I do now, 15 years later, use the process I describe. I only use/used BT-08 glass beads. Very fine. I really don't have much of a trick with pistons. For high performance I just run them a bit loose and use total seal rings. Some others in the class used the beading on the skirts and had good results but nothing to write home about. Some pistons are coated with graphite on the skirts from the manufacturers.
I will admit to making the cross hatch on the cylinders a bit steeper than most. It helps the rings turn, and seems to keep the ring grooves a bit cleaner.
For added protection from fatigue failure I heavily bead blast the rocker arms, springs, and connecting rods. I will be more open minded when I break something. It just hasen't happened yet, so I must be doing something right.
I have built or helped build engines of all types. I am not a mechanic, just a hobbiest. When this 308 engine of mine needs tearing down it will be my first Ferrari. The automotive class professor used to always say that an engine didn't know what name was written on the outside. I would assume that a Ferrari engine would respond to the same preparation as any other.
I would also like to add that I just tore down an aircraft engine that was lubricated with Arco Graphite oil for most of it's life. Big mistake!!! I chiseled out about 2 ounces of solidified graphite from all sorts of places inside the engine. I was told by others that using molybdenum disulfide can do the same thing. When I use an additive I stick with Dura-lube. It uses film modifiers instead of particulates. I think Motor-up is similer.
Being young hot rodders we didn't document the evidence of out "experiments" so There isn't anything written down that I know of.
Also, for those of you who saw my posting about using straight water as a coolant, I went out and did some homework by talking to a few builders in my area. 100% water CAN cause corrosion in some engines. It doesn't affect the aluminum. It rusts out steel water lines and fittings. Certain cars are touchy about this (like honda civics). The mechanic that told me this has a "junker" civic that is running mid 11's in the 1/4 mile and passes our states emissions tests. So use a little antifreeze, will ya..
K |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 154
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:24 pm: | |
Uhhhhhh... beadblasting crank and cam journals and lobes? Interesting. |
Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member
Username: Merlyn
Post Number: 102
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 8:05 pm: | |
Gyrokeith, That's very interesting about the glass beading. Is there any literature out there about it? Do you blast the entire cam, or just the lobes? What about two surfaces that wear against each other like cam lobes and followers? do you blast both surfaces? How do you treat the cylinders? Do you blast the pistons?
I know, a lot of questions, but I am very interested.
Thanks, Dave |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 454
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 6:33 pm: | |
I just use bedroom motion lotion. It's never let me down. (just watch you don't get any sand in there...ouch!!) |
Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member
Username: Robertgarven
Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
Dear Friends,
My brother in law builds drag engines and parts for drag racing and they use lucas oil additive sometimes. I have been adding it to my oil as I was amazed at its ability to make oil stick to the parts. After dropping my pan I could not believe how sticky and hard it was to clean up the small amount of oil that got on the floor. When I replaced my inner and outer timing gear bearings I used the stuff to prelube the bearings.
Some guys on the Ferrari list laughed at me as on their Lucas website the guy and his wife invented it in their kitchen, but my impresion is that it works. Especially in my bearing situation where it will be sometime before the oil is pumped to them.
Rob
I am using Castrol 20/50 and changing every 6 months or 1000 miles. |
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
Since I only have 25 or so years experience with construction and modification of auto/boat/aircraft engines I can only speak from such experience. In these years I have never had an engine failure due to lubrication. (I did have a valve fatigue failure when I was 19.) I've also never developed a ring ridge! It took me these years to fine tune my recipe for assembly lube. It is very effective and not a matter for dissagreement in my mind.
Since you seem to enjoy engine science, also, I can give you some other results on micro-filling of "polished" surfaces. 1600 grit polishing is way too smooth. Tests conducted by me and several others in a college class determined that by using a bead blasting finish (BT-08) on crank journals and valvetrain components yielded the best wear characteristics and "zero" break-in wear. You do need to run some 1200 cloth over it to knock the sharp points down. It seems the BT-08 glass beads give just the right size of micro-valleys to hold oil molecules to protect these surfaces.
Before the nay-sayers shoot more coments my way I will admit to cleaning the parts for days after to ensure NO glass beads or dust are present.
Stp contains a soft but effective zinc dithiophosphate particulate that is present in almost all conventional oils, anyway. The majority of stp is parafin-based long chain hydrocarbons, you know, super oil!
I think the best use of the beading process is on camshafts. This is the location of the majority of friction and heat production. When I use PTFE in an engine I just buy a box of the powder and add some to the oil. I doesn't stay on the parts unless you don't use a filter. The alternative is a Dura-lube type chlorine based additive. It seems to change the film strenghth and make the oil more "slippery". It won't last much more than a few thousand miles, however. I missed that class, but know basically how it works.
For those of you building an engine there are some things that are common mistakes that cause many engine failures. The one that stands out the most is the liberal use of rtv sealers. I have seen it in all kinds of places it shouldn't be. If you use enough to easily tell what color it is you used 20 times too much.
I have an ego problem because of the dreaded opinion problem most semi-informed people possess. I have run into some who say rings don't rotate in the bores. I've never seem one ring in the same place twice. They all rotate but some "feel" they know more than I have seen in at least 100 torn-down engines.
And just so you know... all my patents will be with my employer, the US DOD... They will be the property of all Americans and I won't get any extra compensation. I don't work research for fame or extra fortune... I want to help with saving of American soldiers lives. The area I work in is responsible for all the technology in the M-1 tank, for instance. We don't build them, we make them safer.
I am working 10 hour days to help with protection systems that can be fielded to stop that daily body count on the news every day... What I and others do is extremely important to preserving life, and for that there will never be any apology! The sarcasm is just a hobby!!
|
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 574
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 3:26 pm: | |
Jeffrey
I used the red Valco MPZ. Great stuff for all except the cam shaft surfaces where some molly is used.
Keith
I can see you are out to make a lot of friends |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 152
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 9:51 pm: | |
By the way Keith... as a newcomer to the site, you might note that we've managed to disagree about issues without taking personal offense and dispensing sarcasm and/or vitriol.
Welcome to FerrariChat, and best regards,
Andy |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 151
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 9:46 pm: | |
Keith... what can I say? I only wish I were as awesomely experienced, patented and researched as you... never mind your having a fine attorney. I applaud your wonderful self image. How can my meager 40 years of building and tuning these things (along with a degree or two of my own.. well, three) possibly compare?!
PS The issue isn't with lubricity (which STP provides), but with micro filling (which moly, PTFE, etc., provide). Ummm... specifically, which class did I miss? |
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 9:51 am: | |
I'm too bad you missed that class on basic oil chemistry. Stp contains zinc dithiophosphate which funtions as an extreme pressure (particulate) lube, also. Using your logic about ring seating that would mean that use of stp would cause precisely what you claim moly would do. Unfortunately, that never happens.
Moly lube can and should be added to bearing surface and valvetrain components to help with initial startup. I'm sorry that some people in this world have different opinions about automotive engines than me. I have experience, personal experience, and personal research on my side. I have applied for 26 patents this year alone (That's all the attorney can find, anyway!)
If you are experiencing failure of the rings to break in, you might try running the correct rings and crosshatch pattern. These only contribute about 99.5 percent to the breakin.
Also, you want to watch using any form of particulate additive anytime in your engines life. First of all, the most useful sizes of moly are instantly caught in the filter. The ultra-fine particles help, but not that much. The zinc seems to much more effective. I guess that's why most all dyno oils contain some.
Class is over! |
C.C.ofAtlanta (Atlantaman)
Junior Member
Username: Atlantaman
Post Number: 219
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 9:38 am: | |
I have an engine shop near me that does a lot of vintage Ferrari and old F-1 stuff.. They gave me a tube of "Valco MPZ" red-looking assembly lube. This stuff is awesome.
Made by Valco in Cincinatti |
Andrew A. Illes (Andyilles)
Junior Member
Username: Andyilles
Post Number: 147
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:59 am: | |
Keith...
No, no, no, NO!!! Do NOT use moly (molybdenum disulfide.. MoS2) in an assembly lube.. PRECISELY because of what you mention re: pistons/rings!! If you examine even a 1600 grit micropolished crank or cam journal or lobe, even after Roliting it, they still look like a profile of the Swiss alps! Moly is a fantastic lubricant because it fills those "valleys". If you use it anywhere in the engine during break in, it will dissolve into the engine oil and immediately start filling that 30* crosshatch you so carefully honed into the cylinders, and they will "glaze" instead of seating the rings!!
I do agree about the STP however. Don't forget to pack the oil pump and pickup with Vaseline either, so it can start sucking oil immediately. Also, pre-fill the oil filter.
AFTER break-in... THEN, you add moly to the engine oil... J.C. Whitney sells a moly additive, and it's great! I've torn down more than one race engine using that stuff after many runs, and you can NOT measure ANY wear!!!!
Best regards,
Andy |
Keith Mahan (Gyrokeith)
New member
Username: Gyrokeith
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 8:04 pm: | |
Jeffrey..
I have built all types and sizes of engines. I have never had a failure of any type, or even a bad break-in.
I used equal parts moly (molybdenum)grease, white lithium grease and stp oil treatment mixed well. It makes a very sticky, gooey mess that gets on everything and stays... especially your hands..
And because the moly is in a "solution" of the stp and lithium.. it doesn't clump up in your passageways.
It tends to all wash out in the first oil change. Don't use it on your rings/pistons or your engine might never break in. Ask me how I know. I assemble the pistons dry with a light oil wipe on the cylinders.Then I just run 10w-30 with the assembly lube and get good ring breakin with the prelube protecting the cam/crank surfaces. I change the initial oil after just about 150 miles, then put in my normal oil. |
Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member
Username: Bob308gts
Post Number: 684
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 10:21 am: | |
I have used Redline assembly lube on the last few engines I rebuilt, no troubles at all |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 319
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 9:17 am: | |
What are most of you using as a good pre assembly lube. I used to mix my own from different weights of oil but have been seeing a few off the shelf brands in the parts stores. Just curious as to whats best. |
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