| Author |
Message |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 4:54 pm: | |
My TR is back. Turns out the noise was in the halfshafts. Apparently when the 30K service was done (before I owned the car), they managed to hyperextend the shafts. After R+R the CV joints theres no more noise. Total cost for the fix was $850.00 quite a lot less than the original 11K estimate.
Scott |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2664
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 9:22 pm: | |
Oh Man, That's a relief if that is what it is Scott. I got my fingers crossed for ya. Magoo |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 5:32 pm: | |
Well got some good news. After taking the car to get a second opinion, it appears that the problem is driveshaft/CV joint related. If thats the case its a much easier fix, and I will know for sure next week, when we get into it.
Scott |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2659
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 11:24 pm: | |
Good Point Ed, I totally agree. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 4:27 pm: | |
It is hard to find any 308 for less than $20,000 and if it needs a lot of work as mine did you can easily spend 20 to 30 thousand making it a "Like New" car that will probably bring $30,000 at best.You had better have passion because it is not a good financial investment. On the flip side I doubt if they will depreciate any more than they have. |
Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 379
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
308's can be had in the low 20's all the time. You'd think they'd get snapped up. Why not? Because these cars need a LOT of obvious, expensive work, making the price more like mid 30's. What do top condition (meaning only not obvious work needed) 308's sell for? Low/mid 30's? Hmmmm. If 308's were as reliable and well made as Hondas, the so called beaters would sell for a lot more than low 20's. |
Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
New member
Username: Mfennell70
Post Number: 44
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 1:53 pm: | |
Paul, I guess we agree to disagree. I just can't see how lower cost of ownership wouldn't equal more people willing to stretch to a Ferrari purchase which equals upwards pressure on the price.
I bought a Lotus Esprit vs. stretching for a 348 in part because I perceived the ownership cost would be less both through lower parts prices and freer disemination of information from Lotus Cars USA. Maybe I'm the only one. :-)
OTOH, it's obvious that Esprit's have far worse depreciation than Ferraris. Cost of ownership is obviously a minor player compared to desirability in determining value. Hell, maybe people would just drive them more if Ferraris were cheaper to maintain, resulting in a net loss of value.
|
Argyle Co (Argyleco)
Junior Member
Username: Argyleco
Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 9:59 am: | |
Scott,
what do you mean an exhaust burble, do you mean when the car is idling that the sound out of the exhaust is sputtering. |
Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member
Username: Man90tr
Post Number: 503
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 4:24 am: | |
Hans, well said. Sounds like you described a race car and not a Toyota. Good thing -- I did not buy a Toyota!! Not everything is perfect-- each has its ups and downs. Everyone complains about F-cars not having the reliability of a Chevy and Honda belt changes etc. But they to have their downsides (the biggest downside at that) -- they are not a Ferrari. Ferrari is not about money its about racing, style etc. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
New member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:25 pm: | |
Amen. As I was driving my car away from the restaurant tonight, I thought about this thread. The car really *does* demand that you drive it, i.e. you can't just mindlessly step on the gas and daydream about your daily worries. You have to deliberately think about which gear is appropriate for your speed/conditions, watch the gauges, etc. You actually have to pay attention. It's not simply a transportation device. It's quite demanding upon the driver.
I think this is what separates Ferraris and Ferrari drivers from the great unwashed. Do you want to drive, or do you want to just be transported? |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2636
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 9:35 pm: | |
Ed, What a good rule to live by. It doesn't always work when it comes to passion. Ferrari passion is what we have heard of many times here on the F.C.. People putting a lot of money in the car knowing they will never get it back. But it is the happiness and the pleasure that keeps people putting money into their Ferraris. You like me don't look at your receipts when you get them you file them for later. We who are bitten by the Ferrari Passion bet more than we can afford to lose from time to time because we love the car. BRGDS |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 5:50 pm: | |
Someone wiser than me once told me to "Never bet more than you can stand to loose". |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2629
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 4:29 pm: | |
Dave I would say there are no guarantees. Not to give you a short answer. But the "Love" has to be greater than the "Fear." BRGDS. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
New member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 4:26 pm: | |
My $.02, here, and it really is .02 because my experience is with a car considerably cheaper than a TR.
It seems that every buyer of a used Ferrari goes thru an expensive teething period. There seem to be few exceptions. But if you are persistent, you will have a car that should be relatively trouble free. A guy on FerrariList (sorry, forgot your name) bought a garage queen 308, went thru a year of problems, then drove it without incident for 2 years (until present) as a *daily* go-to-work driver.
I realize this doesn't soothe the pocketbook of TR-Scott, but, Scott, you're in good company, and if other's experiences are any indication, the light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming
train.
Hans. |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Junior Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 174
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 4:00 pm: | |
One concern I have with Ferraris after reading the chats:
I do not want a dream car to quickly turn into a nightmare.
Collecting cars is fine. However, one post said it all for me in something like the following words: after a hard day at the office, a 45 minute drive in the Ferrari brings smiles to the face and is better than any psychiatrist. This is the main thing I am interested in. I am sure similar emotions can be gained from other cars.
What brings this to mind is reading the recent posts about problems with TRs and 360s in the General and Technical Sections (plus other posts in the past). The 360 is suppose to be the pinnacle of Ferrari�s technical skills. There are not that many 360s in the US. I was considering ordering a 360. However, to have that many electrical problems and to be that unreliable when new seems to me to be unacceptable. Ferrari has had a long time to work out electrical problems.
Years ago I was involved in documenting a test where the US Army was studying ways to unload ship containers if there were no ports. It was an interesting several weeks on the beach (and got paid). The Army had several hovercraft. Places like Hong Kong can get them to work fine. However, the Army�s hovercraft (at that time) required 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of use. One hovercraft they could not get to work at all.
Will buying a Ferrari be the car equivalent of 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of use? From reading some of the posts, it seems so.
Ferraris have to be some of the most beautiful cars made and of course the prestige. I want to have fun; I do not want a nightmare.
Will a Ferrari be a constant money and headache pit?
What is the reality?
|
Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 148
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 2:10 pm: | |
Michael, regardless of what you think, the parts prices DO have an affect on resale value as well as who will and who wont buy a ferrari. A 740 or 750 is cheap to buy because the lawyers that lease them only want new, not 3 years old. They are also more reliable than a ferrari and dont need expensive repairs on the regular basis, so owning a 750 (which Im considering) wont be a killer like my 308 for parts regardless of how expensive some things are from bmw. Desireablity also has an influence. A 928 isnt something everyone wants. Most are automatics and dont hold a candle to a 911 as far as looks go. Bad comparisons. Sooooooooo, perhaps part price combined with desireability is what I should have said. |
F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member
Username: Ferrarijoe
Post Number: 120
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 12:51 pm: | |
Scott, this is just a thought. What type of gear oil did they put into the tranny during the initial service (after purchase)? It could be a simple mistake of the wrong oil and replacing it with the correct one and the noise and problem may go away. It is worth a shot.
Joe
|
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2595
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 11:47 pm: | |
Scott, I didn't want to say it but I felt there was another factor involved RE: the expenses on the car. I'm with you buddy and can relate. Both sides have to be considered. Just show that the car is worth more than what you could get for it and you would lose money. The best thing is to make it right, "OR TAKE A LOSS." Sometimes that gets their attention. |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member
Username: Caribe
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 8:25 pm: | |
Scott, sorry to hear about your problems. The additional $3K more for doing a Major on the TR seems about right. As a matter of fact, I called 4 different independent shops today in the L.A. area to ask two simple questions:
a. How much will the 30K Service cost for a TR if I provide the parts (i.e. Labor only)?, and
b. How much will the 30K service cost if I bring the engine on a crate or something and I still provide the parts?
Answers:
a. On the average most shops asked $3K to $3.5K. Remember, this cost includes taking the engine out of the car, performing the service, and replacing it back. In your case the in/out engine part cost was taken care by the first $6K.
b. Labor cost ranged from $1K to $2K depending on the shop. This should be your cost plus parts on top of the $6K.
These answers indicate that the typical labor cost of taking the engine in/out is about $1.5K, and that the actual cost of servicing the engine is about the same, on the average. T.Rutlands quoted me a 30K major service parts kit at around $800 a few months back but I don't think that included everything you will need. Hence add about $1K - $1.5K to the labor for parts and you are in the $3K range that they quoted you already. Perhaps the part that is not clear is the first $6K. However, if the 30K was not done long ago, I would suggest you save that money for when you really need it. Make sure that the diff is really gone, before you commit to that. Good Luck! |
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 110
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 7:44 pm: | |
Scott,
It really sounds like your car should be OK. Some issues obviously from disuse and neglect last couple of years. Hopefully, your transaxle is OK. I have never actually heard of one going bad (except for 2nd gear synchros on Dinos and 308's.
Unfortunately, if it is bad, the owner may have known and not said. I have been lied to myself, or had info left out shall we say. Can happen with any used car, unfortunately, the consequences are much worse with Ferraris. I still advise patience. Once sorted and driven regularly, it will probably be a solid car with nothing serious. Maintneance will never be cheap. There is nothing you can do about the costs once they are done, just water over the dam. Bad luck. But when done, you will have your dream car and know that everything is OK with it.
Dave |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 6:08 pm: | |
Dave,
Some history on my car. It's a 1990 US Testarossa with 31K miles. It was stored for the last 2 years by the second owner who only started it up once or twice a month. It was in good original condition (hadn't been hacked on by anyone from what you could see). It had the 30K service done just before it was stored in 1999, by a well known exotic car service shop in LA.
I had the car examined before I bought it and was given a list of things that were wrong, or would be needed to be fixed to get the car in good shape.
The only 2 things missed initially were the battery and the tires. The 7K initial expense was not unexpected, and was figured into the purchase price of 55K.
I did do some of the non engine related work (battery, switches, cleaning, detailing...) but wanted an expert to do all the initial service so I would have a baseline to work from.
The only thing that prompted this whole thread was the sudden appearance of what may or maynot be the diff going south, and the cost of repair if that is the problem. I'm just concerened that this whole maintenance issue is going to turn what I assumed was going to be a pleasurable ownership experience into a nightmare.
Scott |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2427
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 4:04 pm: | |
I can't go Porsche, I wish I didnt have some sort of early thing developed against them. I'm just not a Porsche guy at all, something about them. I do have a very deep respect for them though, I mean how could you not. There will definitely be an American sports car in the future though, but I will never sell the 308. Despite how angry it can make me, I still like it deep down.
I think Paul's comment is dead on. 15 year old Ferraris are still worth something because not everybody can own one and those that do generally can afford to maintain them well. If parts were everywhere you would have a very disposable car IMO. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
New member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 3:26 pm: | |
Bret,
From your posts about quality of build, excellence of engineering and speed/handling I have a suggestion for you: Buy a Porsche 911. Not in place of your 308 per se, but in addition. A 911 will simply blow you away in its engineering and build quality. Even the smallest details are incredibly well thought out. Every time I have worked on mine I have been floored by the engineering. They are such simple cars, easy to work on and a hotrodders dream. Massive amounts of performance upgrades out there and parts are cheap.
For $25K you can build a hotrod 911SC that will blow just about anything off the road. Perhaps not in a redlight to redlight drag race, but over a twisty 2 lane or on the track, no problem. I have seen guys in hotrod SC's beat Viper GTS's on the track. (the Viper runs away for the first 3 laps and then limps after his brakes are gone!)
I love Ferraris and am looking for an early 308GTB, but I will never be without a 911. The Porsche will take abuse like you would not believe. They are German Camaros.
Terry |
Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
New member
Username: Mfennell70
Post Number: 42
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 3:24 pm: | |
"Quality aside, the ONLY advantage I can see for high prices on parts is it keeps the car's resale price high. If parts were dirt cheap, ferrari car prices would drop and open the flood gates to anyone with two dimes to rub together allowing them to own such a car. I dont like the high part prices but it has its advantages I guess."
I think most will disagree with that Paul. Cars that are expensive to repair seem to get hit the hardest with depreciation as they get older. Porsche 928 and BMW 12 cylinder cars are two that come to mind. If Ferraris were less expensive to repair, MORE people would be willing to take the plunge.
|
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 559
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 12:04 pm: | |
Scott,
On that list of things you've spent $ on, there are a good number of things that are not even mechanical items. Altho you may have spent $ on floor mats, car cover, removing/replacing the dead radio, etc. they aren't at all needed items. Using some hindsight (mine as well - meaning I did something similar) the cars mechanicals should have been fully sorted FIRST. If the 'major' hadn't been done lately (5ish years ago) then that would have been where to start. You will be doing a considerable amount of double work - the hose clamps, fluids, adjusting FI system and brakes would all be a part of that. Doing them 2x is what is costing you.
I don't know who is doing your service or how much you are paying for some of the things on the list (I know the tires are $1500.00), but some of that stuff it DIY and cheap. New Optima $98 installed in 15 mins (at most) yourself. The AC fan transistor $2, 5 mins to fix. The bonnet struts ~$35 each, 15 mins to replace (expect to do those every 6 months or so).
I know that this $ is scary, but once I got my TR sorted out, it's been trouble free and knock on wood will remain that way for a good number of years. Depending on the age/mileage of the car (and if it has ever had any of this stuff done before) you may want to also look into replacing hoses, fuel injectors etc. I say that because my TR also sat for ~2years before I got my hands on it (and had SEVERAL different starting issuses).
As to the NSX comparison, I was with the TR at a local car show and an NSX owner (car not present) came up to me asking about parts prices, apparetly he was waiting 8+ months for an A-Arm at a cost of $800, thought for that $ he could've had a Ferrari.
Just some things to think about.
-Ben
|
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 107
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 11:54 am: | |
Scott,
I was a little curious about what year your TR is, it's previous history and what you paid. My first Ferrari (a 308) turned out to be pretty needy as well, but I learned from it. After I did have it completely sorted, it was a solid car and the next 2 owners told me it was a good experience for them which made me feel a little better even though it was at my expense.
Buying any used car entails some risk, buying one 15-20 years old is even riskier, buying a Ferrari increases the risk ten fold. Among the 6 cars I have had, some have been real good, others were frusrating. The biggest problems seem to come from previousowners who just didn't keep up their cars, doing the little things that need doing, driving regularly, etc. Or, worse yet, backyard mechanics whose skill was highly suspect. One of my problem children had great records though it was due for big service. I factored it in the price, but as many others have said, I didn't figure enough.
Six cars hardly makes me expert, but I learned a few things. First, the best money you can spend is $300 for an inspection by someone who knows the cars inside and out. Second, try to size up the previous owners. If you can't talk to them directly, look at the records carefully. Often there are clues like if the owner complained about small things and paid to have them fixed, service done on time, or better, done more than once because of elapsed time and not mileage. Some say to look at thetire brands. A big bucks model can indicate an owner willing to spend money, the cheapest might be a clue other stuff was bypassed. One thing I am sure of, I still have plenty to learn and I'm always listening to other owners.
It is a misconception that Ferraris are expensive because of engineering and build quality. They are expensive becausethey are relatively complicated and there are so few of them to amortize development costs. No one is happy about the reliability issue and the abundance of expensive, crappy parts but as exotics go, they are the best built. I'm no mechanic, but I have learned to do some stuff myself and learned to enjoy it as part of the experience.
Many of us here know your frustration and you wouldn't be the first short term owner because of the problems. I would advise to just be patient and see how it turns out.
Dave |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 11:23 am: | |
Quality aside, the ONLY advantage I can see for high prices on parts is it keeps the car's resale price high. If parts were dirt cheap, ferrari car prices would drop and open the flood gates to anyone with two dimes to rub together allowing them to own such a car. I dont like the high part prices but it has its advantages I guess. |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2422
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 9:39 am: | |
It's a funny situation. I like all that goes along with the Ferrari, namely meeting car guys, hanging at a near race shop like dealership, learning about the company's racing success, etc. BUT the car alone there are better enthusiast cars. I'll admit that I love out braking and out turning people whenever I get the chance to do so on the street. I've never had an overly quick car that I could simply out accelerate people in though so I'm not sure I wouldn't like that. I think the 308 is a better all around car than the Cobras, but being as everything is straight ahead in the US it is kind of in the air about which is more fun like you said about it being a blast. Hopefully after all these engine mods the 308 will be a little more reasonable. I just would like a car that doesn't get beat by 4 door sedans, I know we can say about it not being about racing and all, but it's embarassing plain and simple.
A big block Cobra is my goal for when I get out of college and start to get on my own feet.
As far as 150K car having problems. I don't know what to say other than I'd be incredibly pissed off, enough so to sell my car. For that type of money I can deal with some problems, but even my jeep (1/20 of the price) starts everyday. |
Mark (Markg)
Junior Member
Username: Markg
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 9:35 am: | |
Scott, I know just how you feel! I bought my 82 GTSi will 'all receipts' last spring. I also had a post-sale budget to do some upgrades. Seems whoever performed previouse work did a piss poor job; I am now into mine for an additional $14K, well above my budget, and needless to say the upgrades arn't happening! Lesson: spend a grand or so for a thorough pre-inspection, even with service records!
Wish I could say it was worth it, but I would be lying. I agree to an extent with those who say Ferrari builds poor quality stuff - NO car should need new water pumps, timing gears, rear ends, window motors, fuse blocks, clutches, etc. at 30,000 miles! also...NO standard water pump should be $500.00, NO standard brake rotors should run $300 each, NO distributor cap should be $300 each etc. etc.
The Ferrari is a piece or art, true, but how many people would buy a Rembrandt if the oil ran every 3 or 4 years and it had to be repainted?
Have to admit though, my road trip to Vegas from Colorado was a blast! |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 2:25 am: | |
Bret,
Funny you should mention Cobra's. I had narrowed my choices down to the Testarossa or a Superformance Cobra before I bought the TR.
I drove a SF Cobra with a 500HP small block, and let me tell you it was a hoot, but the TR had been a goal for so long, I figured I would get it, and save up for awhile and get the Cobra in a year or 2.
Well if 9K is a reasonable estimate I will have spent 1/3 the total purchase price on fixing the TR in the first 3 months! I guess when I thought of Ferrari, I always thought about superior engineering and quality, but now I wonder if its just the mystique without any reality to back it up.
I read this board daily and I can't believe the problems some of the folks have with brand new Ferrari's. Glass breaking, engines not starting, transmissions failing, ... and this on a 150K+ new car. And parts that must be made of unobtainium based on their cost and availability. JFC I know they race and win but shouldn't you get a great car for your money, not just one that looks great, but breaks down all the time.
I had a 1996 NSX for 3 years, and I know I didnt spend more than $1000.00 a year for all repairs/maintenance including a new set of tires every 10K miles. Granted its a little like comparing apples to oranges, but still I guess I expected a somewhat similar ownership experience.
My Vent
Scott |
BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2412
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 10:52 pm: | |
This stuff pisses me off. Ferrari makes shitty stuff, I'm sorry, but they do things stupidly and charge way too much for things. What would they do if these cars actually made a lot of power, I mean like real power, like drag racing power. Ferrari (and europeans) make parts to couple with wearing down, whereas Americans make parts to couple with just not snapping initially. Like rather than a road race where wear and tear is the issue, Americans focus on a drag race where it either snaps/breaks or it doesn't, wear and tear isn't an issue. In doing this short run outlook though they often make better long run products. I'm thinking about all of this because I spent at least 14 hours in the last two days in the engine compartment and under my jeep (decided misfiring badly would be a fun thing for me to deal with, wasn't able to solve the misfire yet because of lack of parts, but swapping the mechanical fuel pump for an electrical one is getting the carb enough juice to at least pull halfway decent and get me to school while the new parts come in). When I work on the jeep I think of a Cobra all the time for some reason, both very basic engines, front engined, rear wheel drive, that's about all the similarities though. What would Ferrari do with a car that put 500HP out in 1965. I'm sorry but the Italians IMO have to step it up. They are two very different cars I know, but if every friggin American muscle car can be made in mass numbers and handle all this power, why can't our painstakingly assembled and designed cars be this good. I want to know why I can't do a burnout without worrying about setting a grenade off in the transmission. I mean seriously. Sorry, I had to vent and this thread made me think about it, Ferrari makes not mediocre, but shitty transmissions and rears. |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 10:17 pm: | |
Magoo,
Fixing it isn't an issue. I will get it fixed. My only hope is that after this expense, diff and major service, there aren't any other costly suprises for awhile ( the wife is loosing patience).
On a positive note, I took apart the air filter assembly today, and found out that my throttle was only opening 3/4 of the way. Adjusted and cleaned the linkage and the car runs quite a bit stronger than it did before.
I'm going to have someone else look at the car this week for a second opinion/estimate. Hopefully I'll have some good news for a change.
Thanks
Scott |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 9:43 pm: | |
Scott, I'm not going to make things rosey but lets look at it how it is. You love the car. Its style its passion and it makes you happy. You bought the car to keep not to trade in a few years. So those things you know. Now unfortunate as it is these things are happening and there is money paid out and more to pay out. I certainly don't know what your financial status is but whatever you have to do to correct the problem you have to do. Who will give you anything for the car if the rear is going to have to be replaced. You will lose more in the long run and lose a lot of happiness. Your T.R. will always be the car it is and when this passes you will have more in the car then you should but then again you don't plan to sell it. It brings you happiness and this means a lot in every persons life. So plan to keep it for many years enjoying it and knowing what the car is now at this point. After a while the happiness and good times you have with the car will overcome all the finiancial grief. So bite the bullet and fix it. Then ENJOY! You will be glad you did. Magoo |
J. Grande (Jay)
Member
Username: Jay
Post Number: 330
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 11:51 am: | |
Rivee I agree, my car probably should have been parted out and I will spend alot of time and money on it. But when it is finished I will know that car inside out. You really have to prepare yourself mentally for the fact that it will take twice as long and twice as much money to get it dependable. |
78308gts4re (Rivee)
New member
Username: Rivee
Post Number: 24
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 11:17 am: | |
Scott, I realize that there are limitations to everything, but I was just trying to ease the pain of it for you and to make you feel better about dumping mucho dinero into your dream car.
What else would you be spending it on: New house and furniture for the wife? Or family vacations? Honey-do's?
See, it IS worth it. Plus, eventually you will have your car dependable and you will also know exactly what you have to do to it, and what you have already done to it.
Can't put a $$$ tag on pure adrenaline!! |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1160
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 5:26 am: | |
I purchased my 308 as a car with "issues". As it turns out it had a lot more problems than I had hoped for. In reality my car probably should have been parted out, as it would have been worth a lot more in pieces. I essentially saved my car from the scrapyard. I gave $20,000 for it and have spent another $20,000 on it but I now have a good looking dependable daily driver. Had I not had the ability to do the majority of the work myself it would have been a disaster and the car would never have been worth saving. I know I will probably never recoup my investment but it never was supposed to be an investment. I just hoped that it would be in better condition when I bought it. |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 11:06 pm: | |
Rivee,
I agree with you, but I do have my limits (and this car is almost pushed me up to them).
I bought the TR because I've wanted one badly since I first saw one in the 1980's. When I got married I told my new wife that 1 of the things I wanted to achieve at some point in my life was to own a Testarossa. For years I've kept that goal but as a new car it was hopelessy out of reach, as a 12 year old used car that situation had changed and I was finally able to realize my dream.
I love the TR's body style, and the engine is every bit as much fun as I envisioned a flat 12 could be. I guess the hard dose of reality on having to spend over 15K in the first 3 months of ownership has me down. I guess I just need to hear from other owners that there is a bottom to the hole I'm throwing money down to fix this car up.
Thanks
Scott |
78308gts4re (Rivee)
New member
Username: Rivee
Post Number: 22
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 3:57 pm: | |
Scott, when I got my 308 I too had a lot of work to do to get it put back up to speed. It's hard to believe that anyone could abuse a car so beautiful. The other day an older gentleman stopped me in the parking lot of a restaurant and said "Excuse me, but I have to tell you, That is one beautiful car.....No I mean that is one beautiful work of art"
So what I'm telling you Scott is that it's worth it.
I spend the "$$" because the F car deserves it.
I've probebly spent more than the car is worth in the 7 months that I've owned it, but when I get in it and crank it up, it starts, it sounds great, and drive off I know that it will give me the dependability that I deserve. |
Vincent William Porto (Vincentporto)
New member
Username: Vincentporto
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 3:16 pm: | |
Scott,
Give Bill Pound a call at (909) 245-6017. He has a shop right by you. He's a well-recognized expert, very fair, and an overall nice guy. He used to have a shop in San Diego that we sorely miss down here. Highly recommended!
Good Luck,
VWP |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 555
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 1:15 pm: | |
Dave -
There is a Francorchamps horror story posted long ago on this forum...
-Ben
|
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 11:16 am: | |
I have heard that Francorchamps of America is good. I know they work on a lot of pricey classics as well as newer cars. They are in Costa Mesa (but close to PCH and Newport Bch.) 949 631 6373
Dave |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 11:06 am: | |
Magoo,
It was just leaking a few drops at a time and the diff was still close to full when it was noticed and repaired. Prior to my taking ownership, who knows?
I am going to take it in and get a second opinion, anyone know or recommend a competent Ferrari Service shop in Southern California (North Orange County).
TIA
Scott |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2557
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 9:43 am: | |
Scott, Just a thought but the thought won't do much good now. The leaking Differential seal. How bad was it leaking and do you think it could have been run low or dry before? I guess it is hard to tell, Right? |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 4:21 am: | |
Ben,
I knew when I purchased the car it hadn't been driven much for at least 2 years, so I figured it would need a bunch of little things, and I was right.
Heres a list:
4 new Michelin Sport Tires.
Rework the electrical box adding seperate circuits for the cooling fans and fuel pumps.
Change all fluids.
Retorque all clamps.
Fix leaking differential seal.
Troubleshoot/fix no start problem (turned out to be a broken connector that lives in the right wheelwell).
Replace broken hood and trunk cables.
Replace power tansistor for AC fan.
New Optima Battery.
Remove old dead AM/FM/Cassette and replace with new AM/FM/CD (Cost of new radio isnt included, I bought that myself).
Remove Clifford Alarm system that was misbehaving.
Adjust Fuel Injection.
Check and adjust Brakes.
Replace burned out foglight switch.
Replace front hood hold open struts.
New floormats (lets not forget those, after the hornets nest I inadvertantly stirred up).
New carcover.
I think that just about covers it. Going in I figured on around 5K to get the car back into good shape, and I wasn't counting on buying tires, so I wasn't too far off the mark, but this unflogging maintenance issue has me second guessing myself. I guess the bright side is if we do the diff/major service, there isn't much left that can go wrong.
With my luck the day I get the car back, a teenager will steal it, wrap it around a tree, and sue me for damages.
Scott
|
L.C.Plester (Lcplester)
New member
Username: Lcplester
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 2:49 am: | |
From 88 1/2 onward TR�s have better transmissions. Reading your post was scary, how many miles your car has done?
9K is a lot of money! Still if the 6K is what is needed to fix the transmission, then I think it would be most economical to do the major service as well.
Are you sure the mechanic is right? Well, if it isn�t the transmission then you are losing 6K! My mechanic (main Ferrari dealer) told that when the engine is running (with no gear on), the transmission is turning as well. So do you hear this sound when its idling, or is it only on some gears or something??
If the sound is more like burble, shouldn�t the faulty transmission be whining? I would still get a second opinion on this one from another mechanic. My mechanic said the TR transmission (in my �89) is very robust and shouldn�t break ever if you drive nicely.
Regards, LC
Finland |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 554
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 1:39 am: | |
Scott,
Pardon my not hepling the situation, but what was the $7k already spent for/on?
-Ben
|
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2548
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 9:46 pm: | |
P.S. After thinking about it I would say he ain't cuttin' you any slack. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2547
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 9:44 pm: | |
Ouch!!! Scott you have my deepest sympathies. I remember another thread here on the F.C. about the faulty rears in certain yr. TRs. Check the archives. You must be using a Ferrari dealer or he charges as such. But I guess if you had to pull the engine to do the valves, belts, etc. I guess it all comes out somewhere close to even, JMO. I guess if he's your main man you don't want to get another price on doing the job anyway, Right? |
Scott Grossman (Sngsmgaolcom)
New member
Username: Sngsmgaolcom
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 9:31 pm: | |
Well 3 months (and 7K in service fees) into my first Ferrari experience, I hear what appears to be an exhaust burble, but its comming from the rear and not related to engine revs. The mechanic checked the simple things and believes its the differential going south (a known TR problem). Preliminary estimate is 6K to do fix the diff (using 512TR replacement parts), or 9K if we do the major service while the engines out (timing belts, set valves, all the typical stuff).
My question is does 6K for the diff service and 9K for the diff+major sound reasonable?
I like this car, but if it keeps this up its not going to be around very much longer.
TIA
Scott |