| Author | Message | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 834 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ric: I agree with you basic assesment that most brake fade events are fluid related (and mainly from neglect), however, my fade event ocurred with a firm pedal pressure, and insufficient deceleration, and the fluid had been completely changed 6 days prior to this event; in texas in 98+ dF temperatures. I changed the pads to a set with 150 dC higher fade point and a slightly higher coefficient of friction. These pads do not display the fade that other pads do. However, in the last 6 months I have gotten faster, and I am I can tell I am nearing the edge of these pads and/or fluid unless I find more air to duct to the brakes. I cannot comment on how long fluid last on the track, since I am changing my fluid about 4 times a year. I am using ATE blue/gold. | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ric, All I can say is I had the brake fluid changed at Ferrari of SF, a week before a track event at Thunderhill. Brakes lasted about 3 1/2 laps. I changed to Porterfield and with the same fluid had no problems a month later. That said, I agree that fluid is the major cause of brake fade, but the in this case it was the factory pads. There was a dramatic difference just driving home from the shop. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 633 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ric, et al. Thank you for the information. Porterfield is right up the street from me, and a friend purchased the wrong pads for his Dino - turned out to be the correct pads for a Boxer. I'll give them a try. These are street pads, 4R-S. Jim S. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 534 Registered: 2-2002 |
I have to add my 2 lira to this thread. First of all, 90% of all brake fade is "fluid fade" and not "pad fade". 70% of all pad fade is from improper bedding procedures. In 11 years of weekend warrior racing, I've only ever encountered pad fade ONE time. In all other cases, it was fluid fade. The marked aspect of pad fade is that it usually doesn't go away once it appears. Quite unlike fluid fade, which does go away as soon as the calipers and rotors cool down. I've used OEM pads, Porterfield, Repco, Carbon Tech, and who knows how many other types of pads. The Porterfield pads make good track pads, and will increase pedal rigidity a little. But... the best bang for the buck is proper fluid type and a really good bleed procedure. On the 348, 355 and 360, the Porterfield R4's pads WILL crack rotors, even solid rotors. My 348 is now on it's 4th set of front rotors. I tend to shy away from the race compound pads for that reason. The street pads work well, don't fade, but don't generate quite as consistent of a friction profile. I raced my Euro 308 heavily on stock pads as well as Porterfield R4s. The R4s worked well and didn't crack the rotors. The OEM pads lacked the overall stopping power. For reference, I use Castrol Syntec fully synthetic brake fluid. It's only a few degrees less capable than the high dollar brands (Motul, etc.), but is widely available and relatively cheap. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 720 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dom: No cracks, and in fact since the wheels were off for installation of stainless steel braided teflon brake lines, they were just inspected again today. These rotors have been on the track multiple times, though the car is by no means an all-out race car. But the holes do help keep them cooler, without a doubt. I can tell you from personal experience in my 308QV that brake fade can be scary on the track, but I've had NONE since the changes. Yes, I suppose that drilled brake rotors can get stress cracks -- this has been discussed a lot on FerrariChat -- and that's one of the reasons I wanted Brembo factory-drilled rotors, not aftermarket drilled. Those guys know what they're doing, where to place the holes, how many holes, speed of drilling, right amount of chamfer, etc, and Ferrari uses Brembo drilled rotors (and brake components) on many of their car models, including 360's, 550's and 575's. Even the Enzo rotors have cross holes, but of course those rotors are carbon rather than steel. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Mike, I'm curious- Have you experienced cracks in those rotors. I've been reading that there is an increased tendancy for cross-drilled rotors to crack with high stress use (i.e., track use). Dom | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 715 Registered: 8-2002 |
I use Castrol LMA fluid, Porterfield R4-S pads, and Brembo factory cross-drilled rotors on all four corners of my 308QV. No brake fade at all on the track. I have to bring it in to the pit to let the engine temp cool down before the brakes ever reach their limits. I'm now also having Goodridge stainless steel braided teflon brake lines put on to firm up the pedal even more.  | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 829 Registered: 4-2002 |
I had similar brake fade issues on the stock pads of my F355. Brake fade after 5 laps or so (and I was a lot slower back then) leaving the rotors a 'battleship' grey color rather than the metalic look of regular running. And this was after a complete brake system fluid change. I did some investigation, and during the investigation a new pad came on the market, so i decided to try it. Ferrodo DS2500. It works well at the road race tracks and is streetable down here in texas. In the cool air of december it warms up to operating temperature in about 0.1 seconds noticible but not alarming. It probably is not streetable much farther north in the cooler time of the year. At the race track, these things work well, although they can be driven to fade (pad fade) after 15 laps or so on 90+ days. The first time I changes to these pads, i got massive brake dusting, and thought the pads much just dust. However, I'm now on my secont set, and there was not much dusting on the second set of pads. So what the first dusting was, was an indication of how much of the previous pad had embedded itself in the rotors. Once this residual had burned itself off the rotors, the dusting is completely acceptable to me (slightly better==less than stock pads). | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 307 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jim (Take 2, first attempt didn't seem to make it. Got to love the "unexpectedly quit" message from Safari). Maybe I am the only dissenting voice here, and certainly others have more track experience than me, but I am not a fan of the Porterfields on heavier cars. A brief sketch of my experience will show why. First, several years ago I autocrossed a turbo-charged Miata. 2500lb car. Porterfields were an excellent choice. Little dust, squeel and, given it was an all season car, they performed reasonably well in the winter too. Not as good as stock when wet/cold, but not desperate either, and they didn't cause any "moments" on the street. My first track experience (with my 77 GTB - with euro bumpers I'd guess it is 2900 lbs, so 400 lbs or so lighter than your Boxer) was stock pads and Castrol LMA fluid. 4 or so laps at Blackhawk (a tight track of about 2 miles length) and fade was chronic. I am told the TR is good for 2 laps on stock pads and fluid before they fade given the 3700 lbs (or so) weight. Next step was to upgrade to Pagid pads/Motul 600 fluid. Same result. Bit more longeveity, but fade big time. For Road America in the fall and again in early May this year, I upgraded to Porterfield R-4s and Motul 600 (and used AP550 on the later event) As you may know this is a fast circuit requiring heavy braking into turns, 5, 12, 8 and 1. Some fade and wore the pads down to the backing plates in 2 track days. It should be noted, I also learned how to brake at this latter session (short and v hard). Tired of "running out of brakes", I added ducting to the fronts, (nearly invisible from the outside) called Larry at Carbotech who recommended their 1108XP compound (F and R). Replaced fluid with Motul 600. Scuffed up the rotors and went off to Blackhawk. No fade. Good temperature range too. I have since upgraded to 1109XPs at the front - a compound with a higher initial bite. So, net net. Street use, I'd stay with the stock pad. It has the best all round temperature performance. I would pay attention to the fluid you are using and if you use a "race" fluid, be prepared to change it every 2 months or more frequently. On the track, as you've gathered, I found the Porterfields went away and wore very rapidly. HTH Philip | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 99 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rex, they are ducted, I shudder to think how bad they would be if they weren't  I drove a F40 once that had the ducts removed, it lasted not quite a lap at Laguna | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 710 Registered: 8-2002 |
After using Lucas/Axxis MetalMax pads on my 308QV and getting a terrible squeal after a hard day a the track, I changed over to Porterfield R4-S. Love 'em. Less dust (and it's a lighter color) and no squeal even after several track days. Been using them for about 2 years now. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 268 Registered: 11-2002 |
James, I installed Porterfield R4-S pads on my GT4 with the help of Byron and Lou Staller a couple of weeks ago. I really like the pads. They feel grippier than stock, and supposedly will not fade as quickly (haven't tested on a track yet...). I concur with Dave about improved pedal feel, firmer, and no squeal (we did use anti-squeal compound on the back of the pads at installation). I'm still getting brake dusting, but probably not as much as with the stock pads. ALso, since they are the street compound, braking when cold is still pretty good. Hope this helps. Dom | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 626 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks all. Keep it coming. Great help. Jim S. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 711 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave, Adding air ducting to your brakes will allow them to go 30 minutes or more, depending on your track and driving technique. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 710 Registered: 11-2002 |
Agree with Dave, go for the 'S' compound for street driving. You may want to use anti-squeal goop on the back of the pads to ensure quiet operation. 'S' compound is suitable for track use, though softer than full-race R4. Wear rate depends on application and driver. Great value/ performance. | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 98 Registered: 8-2002 |
On a F355 after experiencing a disappointing track day with original brakes (three laps then brake fade) I put Porterfield on all around. I noticed a difference just driving home from the shop, and its only about a mile. A bit more aggressive, that is initial bite, vastly improved pedal feel, firmer, no squeal, slightly less dust. On the track I can go about ten laps now without appreciable fade. I believe it was about $250 for the whole car. I highly recommend them. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 624 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have searched the archives and gathered valuable information concerning brake pads. My specific question is: For those using Porterfield Carbon-fiber pads, please comment on pedal pressure, squeal, dust, stopping distance and longevity. These questions relate to street use only, and for a BB512i, although I assume I can extrapolate experience from other models. Thank you for your help. Jim S. |