| Author |
Message |
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 354
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:53 am: | |
Some very profound points have been made here. You guys can get pretty "deep" when you want to. It's fascinating about the need to be emotionally content in relation to mechanical condition, and yet they can be independent of each other in reality but linked together in our brain. My mind reels at this thread.
Henryk, looking at the service info. many seals and o-rings were replaced, but the descriptions are not detailed enough for me to know for sure what is what. I can't remove the left side cover completely to see where the leak is coming from, but it looks like the main crank seal. Boy space sure is tight to work in, my hands are starting to look like raw meat. I can't even remove the alternator because not enough space to pull out the long bottom bolt. If I just replace whatever is leaking and do belts, I will have to yank out the fuel and oil tanks, no way around it. I'm still balancing on the high-wire as to what to do next.
Thank You to ALL of you for your help, support, and understanding. I'd be totally lost without you good people. |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1935
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
Jeff
I think some very good points have been made here.
It's very important that you enjoy yourself. In NY if you drive without a front plate in one of these cars you run the very real risk of being pulled over everytime you go out. It's not that you get a ticket it that's you wind up talking to the man for at least 20 minutes and showing him your car. When that became old the uglyness of a front plate began to bother me less than not being able to enjoy my cars so I put one on.
On my Cigarette boat I routinely spray down the entire engine, hoses, belts,headers etc with WD40.
The engine compartment of my MK-IV is pretty oily as well. I've found this keeps surface rust from forming. Another story Alberto told me was getting a call from Enzo in the middle of the night. He had just sold a new 250LM to Rodger Pensky and Pensky was conplaining that it wasn't new but a used car. Pensky said that the only Ferrari Mechanic he trusted was Alberto so Enzo asked Alberto to fly out and look at the car.
Alberto looked at the car. It was dirty, oily, and it had a few leaks and rock chips.
Alberto told Pensky that that's what new Ferrari Racecars looked like. They took them from the factory. Tested them. Put them in a container and shipped them out. Detailing wasn't included. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 637
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 2:36 am: | |
Jeff and Henry - you have it right. If it feels bad, don't do it. What I have failed to articulate is that a "bad feeling" to some is a screwdriver in the water temperature gauge to others (citing James Glickenhaus' concise interpretation). The engine is inanimate, and we tend to attribute animate feelings to a hunk of metal. The engine doesn't care whether it loses a few drops here and there, sometimes; now and then, maybe.
What I believe you are expressing, in a fundamental and almost visceral way, is that this is a hobby, just as Rob Guess suggested with his RC airplane analogy. Much of the pleasure we get from sailing a boat is when the woodwork is freshly varnished, or the lines are laid correctly, or the sails are clean, etc. None of these provide for a faster point of sail. What Henry has suggested is that it brings you pleasure to know that the engine is perfect (both inside and out). It creates displeasure when uncertainty exists.
In summary, follow your heart, and your pocket book. What I am trying to do, unsuccessfully, is to make an intellectual argument about the trivial nature of an oil leak to an audience (all of us, me included) that is functioning at the emotional level, as much as one can be emotional about an inanimate object. Trust me on this one; the car won't "feel" better if you fix the leak. You might. Your mechanic might. But the car won't care.
Simply my ramblings. But I would drive the car.
P.S. Mitchell Lee - does seem kind of half-assed, doesn't it. Got me on that one.
Jim S. |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 238
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 1:01 am: | |
Jeff,
Jims right. Drive the car.
Bob |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 873
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 9:36 pm: | |
Jeff: Have you found the specific source of the leak? When you received the copy of the repair bill for the major, did it include ALL of the front seals, or only those that where bad at the time? |
rob guess (Beast)
New member
Username: Beast
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
Jeff;
I kinda had the same problem with my radio controlled aircraft hobby. I would alwys think about all the time and effort put in building the plane that it got to the point that i did not enjoy flying them.
If you are worried about the potential of failure while driving the car; I would spend some time to isolate the problem then evaluate all of the risks involved. The main thing to remember is that the oil leak will not get any better. If i was in your situation i would be working on repairing the problem. Once i have it fixed i would be able to enjoy it to the fullest without worry.
Just my honest opinion.
Rob |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 872
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 6:44 pm: | |
Jeff: Even if Jim is right, if it makes you "feel" bad then where will be the fun in driving the car? |
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 352
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 5:58 pm: | |
James, you do have me thinking about the possibility of reconsidering my earlier position. Still not sure as the ends may not justify the means.....meaning a few months parked for service may be better than driving on pins and needles worrying about potential belt failure, and infinately better if the belt slips or fails. Boy it's a rock and a hard place. It makes me feel like the "steamers" my neighbors dog leaves on the sidewalk in the dead of winter. |
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 577
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 5:03 pm: | |
QUOTE:
As one who trained in engineering, it is fundamental in design to consider failure modes and build in redundancy or safety margin. This is true for aircraft as well as automobiles.
End of quote.
James, you of course are talking about a bunch of engineers who decided to put the shift shaft on the 308 and 328 through two oil pans (one was not enough)? With a simple o-ring to stop the leak?
These guys were supposed to anticipate what? Other creative modes of engine failures? |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 636
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 12:57 pm: | |
Jeff - the belt issue has been discussed, debated, researched and argued-over to the point of total confusion.
That said, I cannot believe that the engineers of ALL cars that use exposed synthetic cam drive belts did not recognize the following:
1) An engine bay is an environment exposed to oil vapor, road contaminants, and water,
2) Cam drive belts will be exposed to these noxious molecules,
3) Failure represents a catastrophic event, and
4) Failure is not an option.
As one who trained in engineering, it is fundamental in design to consider failure modes and build in redundancy or safety margin. This is true for aircraft as well as automobiles.
All this said, drive the car. Oil on the belts, in my humble opinion, was anticipated.
Jim S. |
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 350
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 8:47 am: | |
Guys, I'm mainly worried about oily belts. The mystery that surrounds these things is frustrating. Even if a belt is nice and dry, a visual inspection doesn't tell much. But my belts look like...well...if you sprayed them with armoral, and then really wiped them down good, leaving the rubber nice and dark and filmy, but not wet to the touch, this would describe how they appear to me. I keep thinking "is it worth the risk to drive it?" Mr. Selevan makes a good point about conservatively driving it, but all it would take would be that one in a million chance and BANG! Remember that recent thread that scares the bejesus out of me, the owner was told to get the leak fixed and didn't, then snap....needs a rebuilt motor for a measily $25,000. I guess I'll go stare at it for a while, and ponder my future. |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1931
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 8:16 am: | |
James makes a good point. I remember a story my friend Alberto told me. "Pedro (Rodriques) came into the the pits 'The car is overheating'. I put a screw driver through the water temp gauge. 'Not it's not.Get back out there!' "
There come's a time when detailing should stop and driving should begin. Put some miles on that sucker! |
Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member
Username: Yelcab1
Post Number: 575
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 6:56 am: | |
Nobody touches any of my cars, except for me. Dino's experience is the reason why. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 635
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 2:07 am: | |
Jeff - I suggest that you look at this situation in a slightly different light. A "...small but nagging oil leak..." is exactly that: small, but nagging you. Why not drive the car and enjoy it. When the situation arises, or the money accumulates, fix it. Oil on the belts is not the plague that many believe. Drive the car in a sane fashion, don't run redline (stay conservative), and have fun. Many sport cars leave a few drops on the garage floor, and most who own them solve the problem with a sheet of cardboard. While frustrating, don't compound this minor nag by making things worse.
Indeed, if you choose to remove the engine to cork this leak, you are doing so because this is your hobby. Pleasure should be derived by one's pursuing their hobby. But don't delude yourself into believing that you must pull this engine because of this small leak.
A carefully and periodically applied steam-cleaning wand can do wonders for your compulsion. The engine may SEEM to run better when clean on the outside, but it likely does not. One thing we all tend to forget is that these machines are inanimate. We like to attribute emotion to our engines - "...she will run better if I change the seal..." I don't think so.
My humble opinion.
Jim S. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 865
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:57 pm: | |
Jeff: There is nothing wrong with having well documented service records, even with pictures. There is MUCH more satisfaction, and enjoyment in the car, when one is doing the work oneself.
DON'T drive a Ferrari, thinking in the back of your mind,'Will this be worth less as I use it?'. I used to think that, when I had my earlier Ferraris, and it was NOT a good feeling......actually took the fun out of driving it. I then gave up on that and started to enjoy my cars......even reconnected the odometer...HAHA.
When I wanted to upgrade, I found the value of my car.......if it was less than I thought, as was the usual case, I just waited till I could afford it, and enjoyed the car I had.
Just think: The WORST scenerio is that both your TR, as well as mine, will only be worth $20K.....we can then sell them for parts, and get a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!
|
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 864
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:32 pm: | |
I don't let any repair shop work on my cars.....due to your experience.
I don't let Ferrari dealers work on my cars....due to Dino's experience.
Do the work yourself, and you will ALWAYS end up with a better car!!!!!!!! |
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 349
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:31 pm: | |
Your absolutely right Henryk! But some day I will want to upgrade, and I would hope my documented service will be sufficient proof of the job being done and done RIGHT. But we'll see. Once done, I may be so attached that I never get rid of it. I really appreciate your support Henryk. Although we've never met, I have watched your posts since joining fchat and have the utmost respect for you. Thanks. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 863
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:21 pm: | |
Jeff: It would seem ironic that, after you do the repairs, and get the engine detailed to concourse condition, that you would then sell it. You would then have the perfect TR......one to keep and enjoy. Don't do it for someone else.
Believe me.....you WON'T get what you want for the car, as I learned, even with pictures. So fix it, and drive the hell out of it, and enjoy it!!!!!!!
Maybe L. can find you an idiot buyer that will pay well over market price for your car? HAHA |
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 348
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
Henryk..I called the shop that serviced the car prior to buying it, and did it without letting the previous owner know just to see if something didn't check out. The paperwork the owner sent me was identical to what the shop sent, so I felt pretty good about it. I can see the work was actually done, but they must have been sloppy or in a hurry. The shop also rigged up an electric vacuum pump because the left ex. cam driven pump shaft broke. They didn't bother to get the proper part. There were other numerous little things neglected also. I thought I could handle things, and to date have done so. I'll get through this...but it does sting a little. I remember Arnaldo did his service with pics, so I'll review his postings in the archives. I do hope that this is the last hurdle for my TR to overcome. It really is a nice looking and driving car.
Question: If I do the service, and document it carefully with pics and notes, will this be adequate should I decide to sell the car in the future? I would think even though I'm not a dealer, I may be more careful and take time to do everything properly with no short cuts since it's my car.
I will of course detail the motor to death while it's out of the car. So there are some positives in the bleak picture. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 861
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 8:56 pm: | |
Jeff: When you bought this car, did it have a missing service history? It seems that you just now called the shop to confirm a major service......apparently you bought the car without this "written" information. |
Dino Micalizio (Ingenere)
Junior Member
Username: Ingenere
Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 8:26 pm: | |
I have a TR nightmare story for you guys!
I usually do my own service work (done the majors on the TR, 348, and F40). But this time I decided to support our local AZ dealer and let them do the job.
I got billed for $5300 (ouch!)...but for that price EVERY 't' should be crossed and 'i' dotted...I am using the official dealer after all.
Well.... on the way home the throttle would stick. When I took the underside apart they had routed the cable wrong and damaged the cable. So I bought a new one and put it in myself.
Then within 50 miles it started running HOT. I found that some old hoses inside the intake plenum had been neglected....so I changed them myself.
The car still ran HOT! I didn't have time to delve into it, so I parked it. Several months later I checked the oil....and guess what? Water in the Oil! Time to call the dealer...
They of course said that they did NOTHING wrong...but because I was the FCA regional director that they would bring the car in and figure out what was wrong....on their dime. Well...that turned out to be $1900....and the cause of the problem was a failed water pump. Even though they claimed to have serviced the water pump seal and bearing (I got billed for it and they said that they did it)....so the whole thing is MY problem. They now wanted an additional $10,000 to put the entire engine back together. I went ballistic and the said that they would 'help'....and reduced the entire bill to $8K....so a major for $13,000 and loss of te use of my car for a year.
BUT WAIT THERE"S MORE!... I had a strong feeling that they neglected the water pump and were trying to cover it up....so I hunted down the mechanic that did the work...as he no longer worked there. He flat out said that the water pump was never serviced....primarily because they didn't have a seal....he was told to button it up and get it out the door..."cause these never fail"....well this time it did and the dealer has no intention of making good on it! Nice huh? |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 859
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 7:56 pm: | |
There are a LOT of guys on this forum that will help you through it, if you have a problem.
If you need any machining done, like aluminum seal installers, let me know.....I'm getting pretty good at this.
|
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 347
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 7:41 pm: | |
Thanks Henryk...it's good to know someone understands. Yeah...lots of little problems, but one by one they are gone. The car is looking pretty good too-damn! I originally thought about removing the gas and oil tanks to do the service, but after cursing and bleeding just getting that one little cambelt cover loose, I think pulling the motor is the best option. Not the easiest, but the most thorough. I DO NOT LOOK FORWARD TO IT! But if I go slow, take notes and document the procedure with pics, I should be okay. Right now I would love to turn back time, and buy your TR for 45k. It's so darn depressing....gonna go have a couple Long Islands tonight I think. |
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 302
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 7:37 pm: | |
Sorry to hear about your engine leak- just put some stop leak in it...
Seriously, since the major was recently done all you really need to replace would be your cambelts and maybe a tensioner, the rest would be your labor to RR the engine which is a bit of a job but not that intimidating, you can do it if you go slow and take your time
Good Luck |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 858
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 7:33 pm: | |
Jeff: It is sad indeed. If the major was done, then I would only replace the bad seal, and possibly the belts......thats all. Why do any more.
It seems that you have had many little problems with this car since you bought it.
And to think I couldn't sell my 88 TR for $45K, last Fall. Drove it over 5,000 miles since then, with NO problem.......am approaching 70K miles on the car. Just had it in Chicago, getting new seat belts, due to the recall. I will plan on doing my own major service next Spring.......maybe we could do ours together.HAHA |
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 346
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 7:23 pm: | |
You may recall my efforts to make my "storied past" TR road ready. Well I did put almost 2000 miles on it this year, and it was wonderful! But there has always been a small but nagging oil leak at the front of the motor. I finally decided to try and get to the source. I loosened up the left side cambelt cover and still cannot tell where it's coming from. It looks like the front main seal or something is leaking, then the oil is running downhill inside the cambelt covers, and finally dripping out of the small hole in the bottom of the cover. I could probably live with this for a while except for one thing, the belts appear to have a very thin oil film on them. Not much, but from what I gather any at all is too much. A recent thread concerned a TR whose engine failed due to oily belts, and I don't want to have the same thing happen to me.
What do you guys think? Do I perform another major service?
My budget is not ready for this, even with me doing the work. So my car is going to be parked until sometime next year!!!! It's a total shame, and VERY DEPRESSING ! The car had the major done by prev. owner back in Oct. 2001. Must have been crappy workmanship. The bill was a hefty $9,000 but you'd never know it by looking at the car. I even called the shop to verify prior to purchasing, and they confirmed the work and fax'd me the repair bill. Oh well, this is just the sort of story you always hope doesn't happen to you. It was nice while it lasted.
I'll be asking tons of questions during the winter months as that's when I think I'll have the parts and stuff. Till then I don't even want to look at the car! I almost feel like advertising her for sale cheap....but that would be hasty. It's a sad sad sad day..... |
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