| Author |
Message |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1899
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 2:06 pm: | |
It took looking in 6 Old Manuels to find the "correct" info. Finally found it in the 246 WSM, pg. 43.
The Torque Specs from Ferrari for Flywheel Bolts of the size 10mm x 1.25mm = 8.5kgM the conversion factor according to AW is KgM x 7.233 = 61.4805 Ft. Lbs. Torque.
Hope this clears up the issues of Size & Torque Specs. |
Frank R. Masiarz (Fmasiarz)
New member
Username: Fmasiarz
Post Number: 27
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 9:49 am: | |
Hi.........
No problem with the unit conversions, but a problem with the torque specifications
!! The Ferrari manual for the Boxer to which I refer is the English translation of the
365BB manual by Angelo Wallace [ISBN 0-9606804-7-0; 1986]. The torque
specification of 3.1 kilograms is for the 8 x 1 thread bolt. Does the BB512 have a
10 millimeter bolt for this application ?? Henryk states that his 1983 Boxer does have 10 x 1.25 thread bolts at the flywheel. If so, should the torque specification be three times higher than for the 8 x 1 thread bolt ??
Wallace warns in his introduction that there was no separate, official Ferrari manual for the 512 series of vehicles. To quote: "Thus it is vital to check all available data prior to carrying out dismantling, reassembly and/or repairs, especially for the 512 series". The Wallace translation
manual "includes the original 365 GT4/BB workshop assembly and repair manual and subsequent updates/modifications for both the 365 and 512 series".
Can we use a TR manual for all 512 Boxer torque specifications ? No mention is made of "dry" or "wet" torque specifications in the tables at the rear of the 365BB manual. As a point of reference, the spark plug specification is 2 kilograms for the 14 x 1.25 thread, which translates to 14.5 pounds-feet of torque. The connecting rod cap specification is 6.6 kilograms for the 10 x 1 thread nut, which translates to 47.7 pounds-feet of torque. The torque specifications in the 365BB manual for 10 x 1 to 10 x 1.25 thread bolts vary between 5 and 8 kilograms or 36.2 and 57.9 pounds-feet.
Best insurance: check the bolt size before applying torque; make sure that the torque specification in the manual applies to the bolt that you have at the end of your wrench.
Assume nothing and read the fine print !!!
Frank........23005
www.masiarz.net/bb_resource |
James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
Junior Member
Username: Dr_ferrari
Post Number: 127
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
I agree JRV, stick with the 62 ft/lbs and a light dot of the red loctite. You will have no problem with that number with that bolt size.
Best regards, Jim
|
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1887
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
>>If all else fails, then I will just split the two figures.....22 and 62......and go with 42 ft-lbs, and the hell with it.<<
I'd stick with the 62lbs & locktite on all 10mm bolts if it was me.
|
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 888
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
Jim: The 83 Boxer, or mine at least, has 10 X 1.25mm threads. Apparently there was an "update" to your manual, which you did not receive. So what is a guy supposed to do?.....who knows?
If all else fails, then I will just split the two figures.....22 and 62......and go with 42 ft-lbs, and the hell with it.
Henceforth, when it comes to the Boxer, I will just "wing" it!!!!!!!!!
If I sell it, I can always say.....'new clutch..can see in trunk'. HAHA
|
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 646
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 2:46 pm: | |
Henry - sorry. I did not know that you did not have the torque specification for the Boxer. I have the WSM for the 365 / 512 BBi. The specification for the flywheel is: thread 8x1, torque 3.1 kg.
Please look at the second site that I copied to this thread. In general, I believe it is easier to use. HOWEVER, the first site has Kgf-m (I assume kilogram force-meter), which when calculated for 3.1 kgf-m, the foot-pound unit is 22.436.
What's a guy to do?
Jim S. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 885
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 1:40 pm: | |
Jim: I did try the first site........it is now in my favorite column....thanks. Torque came to what you stated. The problem is that the torque is from a TR (flywheel) manual.......I assumed the torque to be the same for the Boxer. It appears that this assumption may be incorrect.
I removed the flywheel, for other reasons....mounting studs seem short for the new clutch, and am awaiting a response from AP Racing, in England.
I find it both amusing, and frustrating, that such knowledgeable sources would have such varied opinions on, what I incorrectly assumed to be, a very simple question. Seriously, I wasn't trying to "trick" anyone.
Before I buy my next Ferrari, there will HAVE to be available proper and COMPLETE service and parts manuals........or forget it. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 644
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 1:16 pm: | |
Henry - did you try both sites? The second site, I believe, may be a little easier.
Jim S. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 882
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:22 pm: | |
The figure of 8.5 was taken from the TR workshop manual. All the torque figures are given in this unit.
According to David and Frank, the unit of torque must be wrong?.....what would the figure be for a 10mm bolt according to your calculations?
I then went and used the site recommended by Jim, to check for more commonly known torque items. These where all done using the daNm units:
Spark plugs=1.6 daNm>>>>>>>>11.8 ft-lbs
Single wheel nut=45 daNm>>>>332.1 ft-lbs
Camshaft cover=0.9 daNm>>>>>6.6 ft-lbs
The manual states the bolts are 10 X 1.25mm, as stated by JRV.
Comments?
|
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1873
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:11 pm: | |
>>If the flywheel to crankshaft bolts were 8x1.0mm, the correct torque is indeed 3.1kg-m/22.4lb-ft.<<
Fly Wheel Bolts are 10mm not 8 |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 641
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 9:35 pm: | |
Nobody moves, nobody gets hurt. Nobody panic.
http://www.metrication.com/
http://www.mdmetric.com/tech/tech4/torqcalc3.htm
Go to either of these pages, pull down appropriate units (deca newton meters) and the answer is:
62.7347 foot-pounds.
There are many metric conversion web sites. These are but two.
Jim S. |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 241
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
Henry,
Time to pause for a moment...
If the flywheel to crankshaft bolts were 8x1.0mm, the correct torque is indeed 3.1kg-m/22.4lb-ft. The reason that you had such difficulty removing these bolts is that they orginally had a dab of red loctite on them.
There are errors and inconsistencies throughout these manuals. When all else fails, look at the bolt size and thread pitch...
Personally, I'm surprised the flywheel bolts didn't break...and I'd likely get new ones, now.
Regards,
David |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 881
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 6:58 pm: | |
Sure didn't feel like 22 ft-lbs when I took them off.......needed an impact wrench. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 880
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 6:56 pm: | |
Can someone tell me what is going on here?
Does Ferrari make this confusing on purpose? |
Frank R. Masiarz (Fmasiarz)
New member
Username: Fmasiarz
Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 6:47 pm: | |
Hi.........
Just a quick note/question about the torque specification for the Boxer flywheel-to-crankshaft bolts. My Ferrari workshop/repair manual states a torque in kilograms of 3.1 for the bolts with 8 x 1 threads which hold these two units together.
According to Bill Badurski at the FCA Tech Tips site: "multiply kilograms by 7.233 to get pounds-feet of torque". Using this formula and the workshop number, you should tighten these bolts to 22.4 pounds-feet of torque ??!!
Any ideas about the discrepancy ?
Frank.........23005
www.masiarz.net/bb_resource |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 879
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 6:33 pm: | |
Just installed the flywheel......63 ft/lbs.
Now for the fun part......the clutch!!!!!1 |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 878
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 5:48 pm: | |
and Jeff. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 877
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
Thanks Steve
|
Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member
Username: Carguy
Post Number: 355
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
Well Hello again Henryk...I believe that daNm refers to Deka-Newtons/Meter. Not sure about "Kpm" though. If the spec. is Deka-Newtons/Meter it figures like this. One Newton is .2248Lbs, and "Deka" means multiple of ten, so one Deka-Newton is 2.248 Pounds. The manual states 8.5 daNm so this equals 19.108 Pounds. There are 3.281 Feet in one Meter, so multiply this by the pounds and you get 62.69 Ft/Lbs. of Torque. Can anyone out there please verify this? Sorry for the long explanation, but sometimes I have to think out loud. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 1947
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 5:26 pm: | |
"daN m" is "deka Newton meter" (or 10 Nm) so
1 daN m = 7.35 ft-lbs
|
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 876
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 4:53 pm: | |
What is the torque of the flywheel bolts? The manual states 8.5 daNm (Kpm). Can someone tell me what this means, and the proper conversion factor, to ft/lbs? My conversion tables don't seem to know what this is. Can someone explain in plain English.....Ft/lbs?
Thanks |