| Author | Message | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1215 Registered: 5-2001 |
Michael, The 308/328/Mondial radiators are known to have problems with seams splitting, causing leaks, and plugging up and require opening and cleaning out. This is usually after 15 years of use, and once cleaned and welded, they are good to go. In other words, they don't seem to require this service repeatedly....but they all seem to need it eventually. | ||
| Michael Klein (Malibumk)
Junior Member Username: Malibumk Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm a long time MB coolant user too...with good results. However the local F' dealer who also sell Porsche/Audi uses the Audi stuff which is some european brand that I can't recall at the moment...it too is green. But I have to say that if the water wetter is good for the water pumps...I'd be inclined to go that way as the Ferrari's seem to have indestructable radiators, something you can't say about the pumps. I've never heard of a leaking 355 radiator...have any of you?? | ||
| Shan Bagby (Shanb)
New member Username: Shanb Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dave: I'm sure you're not the only one using the green stuff, but for my $ MB coolant is cheaper than a new MB radiator :-) Enjoy, Shan | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1208 Registered: 5-2001 |
So am I the only one that still uses the green stuff? My Honda motor went 150k with the original water pump before I had it replaced with the timing belt just a while back...no problems. I do have the orange longlife stuff in my motorcycle but all these products claim "aluminum safe"...or is that BS? | ||
| Shan Bagby (Shanb)
New member Username: Shanb Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2003 |
Robert Garvin: As you asked for a source, I buy my all my MB Coolant (and all things MB for that matter) from: www.thebenzbin.com and www.mercedesshop.com (click on Fastlane) Somebody quoted $20/gallon earlier (can you say rip-off!) It costs around $10 a gallon and sometimes even less if you catch a sale. FYI- shipping from the benzbin is free with a $50 purchase. I'm not affiliated with either, just a happy Benz DIYer. I only use MB coolant now, after having had to replace several radiators in different MB cars after using the green stuff. YMMV Enjoy, Shan | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2003 |
Somebody was worried about pH so I took some measurements to compare the clear MB OEM to the green stuff in the new Ferrari-- Clear Mercedes OEM in 600 SEL, changed 1 yr/o.. pH 7.7 Clear Mercedes OEM in 600 SL, changed 3 yr/0.. pH 8.0 575 Maranello OEM delivered 3 mo/o with green stuff OEM... pH 8.3 All at 91 degrees F, in my garage. I will give the green stuff a year then switch to the clear Mercedes glycol. I will use 60 percent now. aehaas | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1554 Registered: 4-2002 |
Guys: Don't forget that regular ethylene glycol is highly flammable too! (Put a few drops on your hot exhaust if you doubt this.) | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member Username: Beast Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ali; I agree with you on that one i will not use in my daily drivers or my race bikes. Just due to the exsplosive factor. With most Ferraris with the fuel tank near the engine the risk is far to great to outweigh the benifits of the product. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2003 |
That is a very informative PDF. The reason people use it is because it has a better specific heat. Water is 1.00 and Propylene Glycol is 1.04. Is it better? Yes. By how much? Almost nothing. Noteworthy is that it contains silicates that some think results in abrasion. I would not use it. aehaas | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member Username: Beast Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2003 |
I found this MSDS fro Propylene Glycol off of the AMSOIL web site http://www.pecuniary.com/MSDS/ANF.pdf Look at the flash point 211 degrees F. And can be explosive in confined areas same as what you have in an engine compartment. Not my idea of fun. Rob | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member Username: Beast Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2003 |
I dont want to sound the alarm flag but i recall reading a few years back about Propylene Glycol. While it does do what it is advertised to do reduce corrosion and allow the motor to run cooler i have also heard that the stuff if very flamable if it were to leak and come into contact with an exhaust header. Looking at evans cooling tech info they list nothing about the flash point of the coolant. You might want to check before you jump in head first. As for a silicate free Ethlene glycol coolant go to any Import motorcycle dealer Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and pick up the OEM coolant. There has been lots of problems with silicate reactions in the aluminium systems on bikes and their coolants are designed to prevent the Silicate issues. Rob | ||
| Joel Ames (James)
Junior Member Username: James Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2001 |
I DO , I DO. And in my E-Type. For several years with no problems. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 201 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dear listers, After reading about 100 sites on the Dexcool orange coolant. I am confused. I checked my records, I installed it in 1996 and have changed it 8 times using distilled water, had no problems with sludging of any kind, the car runs great, never overheats even in hot weather and when I did my timing gear replacement, I had to remove the aluminum cooling pipes and found no build up of any kind on the inside. I have had no leaks from my radiator and the stuff comes out as clear as it goes in. There seems to be two camps on this issue, the GM cars owners and lawyers suing and the manufacturer(s). The manufactuer(s)including Prestone swear that the Dexcool type coolant is safe for all metals and vehicles and cooling systems, improves water pump life and prevents corrosion. They seem to feel that the problems were with the GM cars or systems which had lots of air in them. Honda and Mercedes is now using a very similar product which is still ethelene gycol but with organic acid additives to lubricate and prevent corrosion just like Dexcool. The regular green coolants have silcates which like sand can be abrasive to waterpump seals etc., and phosphates and borates to prevent corrosion. The one common concern is switching from orange to green as this could cause some kind of adverse reaction including the formation of some type of solids clogging radiators and causing corrosion. Although I am confused but it seems since I have been using this stuff for 8 years with no problems that to switch back could lead to problems. Has anyone heard of Evans coolant http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html which is a Propylene glycol which is non toxic (they say it is used as a food additive) and 100% waterless compound that is great for cars that overheat and for racing. Has anyone used this stuff or know of anyone? Also am I the only guy using the Dexcool in their Ferrari? If you are please respond as I feel like the odd man out.... Rob | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 377 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks for the info guys. It's always nice to know when a subject is thoroughly investigated. Thats what I love about this site. DJ | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2655 Registered: 9-2001 |
DJParks, I've been using WaterWetter in my cars for decades now from a Fiat Spider to my current Boxer. I have had no issues whatsoever with waterpups on any of those vehicles after hundreds of thousands of miles between the many vehicles. I am currently using it in my M5, my wife's Honda van and two bottles in my Boxer. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 376 Registered: 2-2003 |
Heck! I'm just going to drive it! DJ | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1553 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oh, BTW, I called Redline and asked about plastic compatibility with their water wetter. They weren't aware of any issues. The ph of Water Wetter is 8.6, and that of antifreeze mixtures is 7.5 to 11, depending upon, err, stuff. So ph shouldn't be an issue. Other probs? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1552 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'll have to call up D!ck at ATD and ask. Hope he remembers. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 374 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hans, you're scaring me! Think the shaft diameters are different? DJ | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1551 Registered: 4-2002 |
The water pump that I most recently bought had a plastic impellor. I asked the mechanic to swap the old brass one in it's place, but for some reason he noted on the repair order "Impellors not changed." I forgot to ask why, but maybe they don't fit. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1171 Registered: 5-2001 |
Plan C! | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 372 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks Dave, I guess I can do a number of things, A. Drain the coolant and don't use water wetter. B. Remove the water pump to see which impeller I have. C. Just drive the thing. I recall the discussion about the failures on the 360 Challenge cars and my thoughts are that the pumps are going through EXTREME punishment, heat and RPMS. I don't imagine plastic would hold up very well under those conditions, then again, the Japanese have successfully used plastic pistons in dirt bike engines too so it gets down to proper material for the purpose. My thoughts are to run with what I have and not worry about it..........you know....'normal driving'....etc........... DJ | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1169 Registered: 5-2001 |
DJ, I have no idea. It may not be possible to tell. Personally, I have never seen a 308/328 water pump with a plastic impeller, only metal. I would think it is very unlikely you would have one. They were installed new only on 328/Mondials, and the later ones at that... | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 371 Registered: 2-2003 |
So Dave, are there any external markings that would help me determine which pump I have? DJ | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 370 Registered: 2-2003 |
In reference to the "40 Below" brand water wetter, I picked it up at the local speed shop. It's actually called '40 Below'. The drag racers use it because of the track restrictions concerning Glycol. Most of the Econo-rails use it in a radiator about 16" square to cool a their V8's while staging and racing. I paid 39.00 for one quart and is enough to treat a cooling system one would find in a 3/4 ton pickup truck. It made a big difference in the 'in town' performance of the cooling system. I have also noticed a reduction in run time on the fans. DJ | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1164 Registered: 5-2001 |
Frank, According to Carl Jones' tech tips on the 308GTB registry site the fourth and last version of the 308/328 water pump (#121255) used a plastic impeller. Since many 308's have upgraded large bearing waterpumps, it is possible that they may have the plastic impeller design. Probably unlikely, but still possible... | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 369 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks for the info Frank, The water pump was replaced on my oldslow308 two years ago and I was afraid it might have a plastic impeller. I seem to recall a thread in the past about advantages/disadvantages of plastic vs. brass impellers, some aftermarket type pumps having plastic etc............ Come to think of it, I don't recall what car they were taliking about............. Thanks anyway, DJ | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2649 Registered: 9-2001 |
DJParks, per FOA all Ferraris with the exception of the 348, Mondial T and 360 have metal water pump impellers. For some reason Ferrari used plastic water pump impellers for the 348, Mondial T and 360. So your 308 is fine with 40 Below. By the way, what is 40 Below ? Is it the same basic product as Redline's WaterWetter ? | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 368 Registered: 2-2003 |
I am currently using 75% distilled water, 25% Glycol and a can of "40 Below" water wetter. I saw a definite reduction in operating tempuratures. My concern is what I read in a previous thread about the detrimental effects the water wetter has on plastic water pump pulleys. The reference was to water pump failures on the 360 Challenge cars versus the ones that didn't use the water wetter. It was said that the alkiline solution made the plastic impellers brittle. I have had serious considerations of flushing my system because of that thread. Can anyone add to this? Thanks, DJ | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1546 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ali: Redline Water Wetter is near miraculous stuff. It was originally formulated to lubricate the water pump and prevent corrosion/electolysis in race cars using pure water, but when they tested it, they found that it actually reduced temps by a significant margin. I've verified this - an easy 10deg temp reduction. | ||
| Lloyd (Lloyd)
Junior Member Username: Lloyd Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2001 |
When I had my NSX the Honda antifreeze was always recommended as it was supposedly designed for aluminum engines. I don't know how it compares with the Mercedes product, but it is hard to beat Honda reliability. I have no experience with the Honda antifreeze in a Ferrari, but it would probably be worth consideration. Here is a link to an NSX site, which when you scroll down discusses the advantages of the Honda antifreeze along with a discussion of other recommended fluids for an NSX. http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Maintenance/fluidfilter.htm | ||
| Jeremy Lawrence (F512m)
Junior Member Username: F512m Post Number: 142 Registered: 1-2002 |
I saw a demonstration on Speedvision. The show was......I can't remember. Anyway, they had someone write in with the question of "why 70%." They put a metal engine part in 100% antifreeze, 70%, and less than 50%(Can't remember the exact number). Anyway, the over 70% rusted, as did the under 50%. While the 70% had no corrosion at all. Could be BS, but I don't want to find out the hard way. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 847 Registered: 4-2002 |
"That's why race cars, even F1 cars use 100% water." Glycol is very slipery on asphalt and concrete, water is only partially slipery. So when a radiator, hose, or engine goes 'bang', there is less debris on the track with water than with glycol mix. So, in effect, the rule is for safety and for ease of cleanup. However, how many F1 engines are left with coolant in them for more than a few hours at a time? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2644 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ali, the reason the seller of the product recommends 50-70% coolant is to sell you more . 25% coolant is more than enough to protect from freezing and provide corrosion protection. 100% water is the BEST for cooling if you don't need freeze or corrosion protection. That's why race cars, even F1 cars use 100% water. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2003 |
I get the coolant from the Mercedes dealership parts department. I run 70 percent in all cars. It is a MB part, a 1 gallon white jug, clear fluid. It is the recommended and stock MB antifreeze. Antifreeze, ethylene glycol, has a specific heat of .6 or .7 whereas water is 1.0 so there is better heat transfer with plain water. Systems are designed to run on 70 percent antifreeze in all situations so if you are running hot then something else is wrong. Prestone states to use between 50 and 70 percent, not less not more. I am sure there is a reason for this. I know people who run 100 percent antifreeze for protection from corrosion but Prestone states that the product will not be fully enabled over 70 percent. I would like to know those detains myself some day, for the moment I will take their word for it. ali PS. I do not believe in additives for oil or antifreeze. These companies have worked on this stuff with the auto industry for years. Additives from another company may interact and actually make things worse. There will be dilution of chemicals within the base product. Antifreeze acts as a lube for your water pump. Use the correct amount unless you know better for sure. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2641 Registered: 9-2001 |
Rich, you need some coolant to help prevent corrosion. I use 25% coolant, 75% distilled water and a couple bottles of Waterwetter. It works well and includes enough coolant to help prevent corrosion. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 194 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ali, Is there a source for the mercedes coolant? | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 329 Registered: 10-2001 |
I might change my tune if/when I have a more expensive car and/or didn't find other reasons to drain/fill my cooling system all the time, but so far I'm a fan of no-coolant: just water (distilled recommended though I don't bother) and a lubricant/anti-scale additive and redline WaterWetter. What's in that fancy new stuff? I'm assuming it protects against freezing as well as glycol but does it do any better at shedding heat? I don't run glycol in summer because it's routinely over 100F/38C here and I drive in stop and go and my cars run 10-20 degrees colder without glycol (with waterwetter) and I just don't like that green junk anyway. I really noticed the difference in the Dino engine. Do some of the newer advanced solutions run as cool as plain water while offering benefits not covered by something like anti-scale additives and/or WaterWetter? | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2003 |
I use the clear stuff from the Mercedes Benz spec list. It goes for about $20 per gallon. It is good for all metals and has very little impurities. It looks as good coming out as it did going in after four years in the car. I have used it in all my cars for the last 10 years. aehaas | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 750 Registered: 9-2002 |
While on the subject of best fluids, what is the best coolant to use in a Ferrari (special emph. on mine..a 328  ) |