| Author | Message | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2110 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Mine are just bright bulbs, well aimed....that's another frequently negelcted service item.<< You Da Man !! Of course 180 at night already had most everyone else beat. [  ] | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2003 |
Trawl the archives guys, I'm sure theres a hundred articles on sorting headlights out. Sounds like so many people out there are not experiencing half what their cars can do with only a few modernisations completed. Just fitting new lamps all round with brighter bulbs will help, or you can go the full monty up-grade with xenon spotties etc nowadays. Mine are just bright bulbs, well aimed....that's another frequently negelcted service item. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 262 Registered: 4-2002 |
...Ain't that the truth, JRV. My lawn tractor has better lights at night than my BB. David | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2104 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>but my BB wont show more than 180mph at night...because the headlights act like a huge airbrake! << Uhhhh... Having driven a few at speed and a couple more at night, I noticed the Boxer over driving it's headlights long before it reached terminal velocity or was bothered by the air brake effect.. [ ] | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 261 Registered: 4-2002 |
Frank, That one heavy 365BB you quote... My owner's manual states 2720 curb...and she's 2840 lbs on the scales wet, with about a half tank of fuel... Maybe Luigi had just a big pasta dinner when they weighed his 365BB? Regards, David | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2003 |
If your kids are playing where I drive my car...I'd question your fitness to be a parent! There's a time and a place for most things.... | ||
| Dave (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 552 Registered: 4-2001 |
Gee Phil, 180mph at night... Please remind me not to let my kids play on your street! | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2003 |
I don't know about Naca ducts affecting speed, but my BB wont show more than 180mph at night...because the headlights act like a huge airbrake! In the day, I've seen 190 acouple of times and 195 once. Not sure of accuracy though. Haven't been brave/stupid enough to try a cool night time drive with lights off for max speed yet!! | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1617 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hey, 'Deep, you've come over to the dark side. Who's next? Willie? cLyDe? | ||
| Lashdeep Singh (Lashss)
New member Username: Lashss Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2003 |
FWIW... Regarding the quote of 188mph for the 512BB, this came from a Road & Track estimated top speed. I can't recall the date of that test, but can probably find it at home somewhere. They also did test a 512BBi in Feb-82 and got 168mph on the gun. The Countach S they tested at the same time did 157mph... With regards to the hp vs. top speed relationship amongst the various BB models, shall we consider the aerodynamics resulting from the 512's rear sail panel, NACA ducts and front air dam? This may lower the top speed, ceterus paribus. Lashdeep | ||
| Frank R. Masiarz (Fmasiarz)
New member Username: Fmasiarz Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi....... The weights of the 365 and 512 Boxer listed by FNA are incorrect. A 365 weighs 3200 pounds with only reserve fuel on board. The 512s [i and non-i] both weigh approximately 3700 pounds. The weight listed for the BB is a typographical error...3804 pounds perhaps ? Anyone know the weight of a BB/LM ?? Frank........23005 www.masiarz.net/bb_resource | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2003 |
There's lots of opinion on shox, but basically use a koni specialist with good reputation to rebuild them. The old foot valves and seals are just crap, but new spec ones along with better quality oils and perhaps new bushes if you feel the urge will transform your tired old pig. Tyres and shox are THE MOST important safety AND performance items, and so often neglected. They're worth laptime, tyre life and possibly the avoidance of accidents. My preference is to stiffen the bump valving approx 20% (which is a rebuild only job), and then have the rebound running at about 30% stiffer than std making sure there's a few turns of adjustment left either way should you need it. But a rebuild to standard with all new internals is usually the most rewarding money you'll spend on your car. | ||
| Joel DeLuca (Trajan)
New member Username: Trajan Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2003 |
Phil, when you say modernize the shock internals what do you mean? I love my Boxer, but it scares the •••• out of me after 120 or so. Also, everything I have ever read puts BBi 's at 340 HP. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1605 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ferrari's weight figures from the '70s and '80s are not even close. I saw a published weight for a 308GT4 of 2400 lbs. Yeah, right. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2002 |
these weights must be wrong. i was under the impression the bb was more like 3600 lbs. i find it hard to believe there is an additional 800lbs added w/ injection. fna #'s are always suspect. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 996 Registered: 8-2001 |
Drew: The info on the Boxer came from a 2-page spec sheet on the cars, from FNA, dated 9-11-00. What is intersting are the weights ( average Dry weight): 365 GT4/BB = 2724 lbs 512 BB = 3084 lbs 512 BBi = 3800 lbs Where did the BBi get all this weight from? | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2003 |
You win Miura is the most sexy car on the planet, bar none. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2088 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>ahhhh the mura<< Yea, if you want REAL Carb Sound you need the Carbs 6 inches behind your head not way back in a far off engine bay...;-)..and AC is for lightwieghts...us Real Men want Sweat Beads with Our Carb Sound...*wink*..and electric windows add wieght and are for wimps...hehehe.....and for handling get the thing down on the ground where it belongs for heavens sakes...ass 3 inches off the pavement..none this boxer 4x4 look...hahaha...and also Tachs with a redline on them...?????....what the hell is that all about...????...manly men rev till they feel like shifting...{ } | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2002 |
ahhhh the mura...the last real lambo worth a ••••. mura's are very serious cars! the only modern lambo that can even be mentioned in the same breath is the countach 6 weber qv. know where i can find one? | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2002 |
never had mine in the rain...woud not know about the wipers. while my car has never been tracked(cannot stand the the thought of the sand blasting to the front end and rockers)it has been corner weighted and aligned. i would love to think there is a better ride height/camber/toe setting ...i am all ears. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2087 Registered: 11-2002 |
Speaking of tires and mirrors. Don't see how anyone can call those POS Calif. mirrors more aesthicaly pleasing than the Factory i elec. mirrors..and the i headliner, map lights and courtesy lights are more pleasing to me...along with the bigger wider rubber..hard to go wrong with an i imo. BTW ;fixer;, as a Miura owner I think all boxer owners are poofs...and should grow a pair and step up ...lol. { } | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2003 |
Not with the shocks internals "modernised", and a touch of negative camber applied, or a full alignment ideally. Mine is absolutely planted all the way up to an indicated 195mph....ask dad! In fact, it's more stable at 140mph than it is at 100mph. The aero actually begins to work on the front spoiler at that speed it seems, and the wipers come back to the windscreen also! | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2002 |
a comment...i love the boxer but on anything less than the perfect road surface, floats all over the place at over 140mph. cosmetically, w/ the exception of the wheels and mirors look identical. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ok, I'll retract the poof comment! But I still say BBi's are the "softest" BB. The BBi also makes it's torque at higher rpm than a carb 512, meaning you have to work it harder to perform equally. As I said, I've done thousands of hours of work on many BB's and it's just my experience I'm relating here. Each to his own....if I couldn't fix oil leaks, tune carbs, change cambelts or rebuild engines/gearboxes myself...I'd have a BBi instead...not that I'm a poof though! Fact remains in my mind and experience, the 512 Carb car is quicker, cheaper, tougher and prettier than the BBi in all departments, and keeps it's nose on the ground at 190mph unlike the 365. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2086 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>like jrv, i also think the comment of the bbi being a car for "poofs" is a joke.<< yes I got quite a good chuckle out of that comment. After all, since NO Boxers were US Versions Ferrari didn't switch to injection for emmisions reasons as on the the smaller cc models, they did it to improve the torque band and overall drivability of the car. { } | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2002 |
like jrv, i also think the comment of the bbi being a car for "poofs" is a joke. i too have a bbi and as an ex imsa, scca, and ama licensed racer (and winner) i have never thought of myself as a squid! guess what bb and bbi are both very raw cars by todays standard and as such, neither is for "poofs". the bbi is faster by all tests to 60 mph than all other bb's. a carb car may make more hp when in a proper state of tune, but will not out perform a injection car on the low end of the rev range. believe it or not, engine management has improved w/ the injection cars. the hp question is never ending. i was always told that a bb or a bbi is a serious car and will just eat a 308 for lunch and that was all that mattered. as a 308 gtb qv owner...i can attest to that. sound...carb cars sound killer. the injection cars can also sound incredible w/o the "gun shot" at shut down after a really hard run! i have a full euro spec retro w/ an ansa sport exhaust. the car is very loud to most ...but music to me! p.s. tourque is what really gets a car off the line and makes it quick in real world driving. a carb car in proper tune is faster down the back of watkins...even w/ the wimpy inner loop!! | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2002 |
Frank, that's not what the FML article that your car appears in shows. It has the 512BBi down by 20HP over the carburated cars. Maybe you can point us to a published source for the 512BBi that shows the HP. Thanks, Drew | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4290 Registered: 9-2001 |
I beleive that article in FML was written by our very own Mitchel Difrancis | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2790 Registered: 9-2001 |
Most of what I have read including my owners manual indicates that both the BB512 and BB512i had 340hp which IS the afore posted 20hp less than the 360hp in the BB365GT4 Boxer. The BB512i has higher torque at a lower rpm than both of the carburated Boxers. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 170 Registered: 2-2002 |
Frank, I did see your baby in the article. Nice to get some press. I still don't think we have answered the horsepower question but it's appearing not that important as there are a lot of other factors involved that members have pointed out. This is turning into personal taste. I drove several injected Boxers and they just did not make enough noise for me so I bought a carburated car several years ago. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Drew | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2788 Registered: 9-2001 |
I too prefer the injected Boxers. When looking for mine I drove the 365, BB and BBi cars and bought a BBi because I liked it best. While I admit that the carburated Boxers sound better, I liked the power delivery of the BBi and its ease of use. HP is great for the track, but torque and power delivery is more important for street use. By the way, did you note Mitchell mentioned my car in his article ? My own little baby got some print...I'm a proud daddy ! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2082 Registered: 11-2002 |
In the case of the Boxers you should probably be comparing Torque figures, Torque Band, Gear Ratios and Wieghts to help get a clearer pic of the speed differences imo. While carbed Boxers are great, I disagree that injected cars are for the less agressive types. I'm plenty agressive ;-)and love injected Boxers for their smoothness and large usable torque band, that makes them feel turbine powered. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 169 Registered: 2-2002 |
Henryk, what is your source? I have some books, articles and brochures on Boxers and they are confusing. Drew | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 257 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well, clutch effort...Now that's another story, Phil!  | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yeah, but you can't "feel" the weight difference...what with the heavier gear selection and single plate cable clutch of a 365 that needs twice the effort compared a 512 twin plate Hydraulic one. 365 rear end rear lamps and narrower body soooo pretty though... | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2002 |
"The numbers are misleading as to actual performance too. "... Well, of course they are. Vehicle weight is a factor...and the 365BB is the lightest one of the bunch. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2003 |
The numbers are misleading as to actual performance too. The throttle response of BBi's is almost pathetic compared to the 512 Carb car, which has 12 butterfly's complared to the BBi's two. The 365 has the best noise....slightly, but you have to rev it harder to get it. I own a 512Carb car, and have driven and maintained about 25 different BB's of all types....the 512 Carb is by far the best all round package, and quicker from A-B than the others. The 365 is nice from a simplicity point of view, but just not tough enough for me. The BBi is for poofs.....in my opinion! | ||
| DaveE (Banzaiboxr)
Junior Member Username: Banzaiboxr Post Number: 176 Registered: 8-2002 |
Henryk is correct. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 994 Registered: 8-2001 |
My source states: 365 Boxer = 360hp@ 7500RPM Torque=311@4500RPM 512BB = 340hp@ 6800RPM Torque=331@4300RPM 512BBi = 340hp@ 6000RPM Torque=333@4600RPM Two cars can have the same hp, yet one can have a consistent higher speed........this is due to different gears, in the trans, and rear axle. The compromise to higher speed is slower acceleration. That is why early Ferraris (3x8s) had a high speed, and low hp.......but very slow acceleration. | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 168 Registered: 2-2002 |
I just got my issue of FML which features Ferrari Boxers. The specification table on page 3 shows the 365GT4/BB at 360HP, the 512BB at 360HP and the 512BBi at 340HP. I was always under the impression that the 365 had 360HP in regular tune (though the prototype may have had 380), a carbed 512 had 340 and the injected car had about 20HP less. So the numbers were 360, 340, 320 respectively. I just looked at the Mel Nichols Boxer book and it lists and explains that the 365GT4/BB had 360HP @ 7,500RPM and 512BB had 340HP @ 6,800RPM. To further complicate things, and confuse me a little more if you look at the Boxer article on Mike Sheehan's web site: http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_0001.html it states that the 512BB had the fasest top speed (but not as fast as the 365GT4/BB through the gears). I was always under the impression that given the same drag coefficeint (assuming you are not redline limited) the more horsepower the higher your top end. So this says that the 512BB has at least as much HP or maybe a little more than the 365GT4/BB. I'm guessing the specification table on page 3 came from Ferrari publications that may or may not be correct. Ferrari tended to bend the truth such as listing the top end of the 512BB at 188mph in the sales brochure when in fact it is closer to 175mph. Maybe Mitchel DeFrancis who wrote the article and is on this site can clear this up. Anyhow, am I still correct that the 365 boxer series had 360HP in production form? The 512BB had 340HP and the 512BBi had 320HP? Drew |