| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2003 |
What a job! I don't think I would recommend rebuilding the slave cylinder as a matter of course with low mileage cars, unless you have a workshop manual. Thanks to all for the help, esp Hank and Phil. It is SOOOO SWEET TO BE ON THE ROAD AGAIN and RUNNING LIKE NEW! | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2003 |
Phew! | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2003 |
Well, draining excess oil and re-bleeding the system seemed to clear up the shifting problem, and no apparent leakage! Boxer12 is on the road again! | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2003 |
Good god. Italians. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2030 Registered: 1-2001 |
Jim -- it is a typo -- should be ".17 pints" | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 125 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dye confirmed gear oil leak. Called F-tech on day off from Champ car race schedule, who said the tubes at bottom are not pressure lines, just flow and drain, and the only way to get oil on inside of bell housing is leak at main seal of clutch shaft housing. I took that apart and the seal I put in looked ok to me, but had tech look at it and he said it wasn't seated all the way and had to be pressed in. Took it to shop and pressed it in, cleaned up everything and put it back together. He also said sealant doesn't have to sit overnight and no sealant required inside housing. Ran without leaking last night, but clutch not properly disengaging and hard to shift. I am thinking that maybe I didn't get all air out of hydrolic line. Will try bleeding again. Another question. The manual says to fill gear oil to drain plug on side of transaxle PLUS add 17 pints into gear box fill plug. That is another 2 gal+, which seems like a lot. Could that be a typo?? | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2003 |
Phil, I think it is gear oil, the prob is, I don't want to keep tearing it apart and putting it back together to replace seal after seal, so I was hoping to just lock in on the problem and thought the dye was a solution that would allow me to eliminate any uncertainty. Thanks for the info on the capacity...I will make sure to add enough dye. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2003 |
Be aware your gearbox holds about 7.5 litres of oil, more than most cars have in the engine, so you need to put in enough to not be dispersed away to invisibility. I've never needed this method of diagnosis, the evidence is usually available. Surely your engine oil is dark enough to tell the difference from your gear oil???? | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hank, I appreciate your input and suppose the idea is to try for a positive test, so I will put it into the gear oil since that seems to be the probable source of the leak. I will make sure I get the oil based dye. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1049 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jim: I have bought some of this dye. It comes as an oil base dye....for oil leaks; and water based....for coolant leaks. They come in 1oz bottles.....instructions call for several bottles. I haven't used any, just have some.....just in case! The test may NOT be that definitive, because you are dealing with two "oils". You must decide into which oil you want to pour the dye into....you CAN'T pour it into both. Let's say that the leak is gear oil, and you poured the dye into the engine oil.....you will see negative results under UV light. You would then have to make an assumption......probably correct but is it 100% correct......maybe the dye didn't reach all the places where the oil is sitting in. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hank & Phil, (Haven't torn it down yet) I recall someone telling me once that you can put dye into engine oil to pinpoint the source of a leak. I think this would answer the ques about engine oil v gear oil in a definitive manner. What do you guys think? Any cons to engine oil dye? | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2003 |
Phil, thanks for clarifying which seal. Hank, I only lost a small amount of gear oil when I removed the housing, which was maybe a cup. I will get some gear oil and have something for comparison. I will let you guys know how it comes out. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2003 |
You don't need to drain or refil the transfer casing when removing it. Just keep it roughly level or on it's back when it's off and no oil will spill out. Jim. The two seals you are talking about are the slave seals, and would leak brake fluid if anything. I'm talking about the oil seal on the inside of the small slave tube/housing that bolts directly to the inside of the bellhousing over the top of the spigot/primary shaft. The tube that the release bearing slides along. Clear oil is almost certainly gear oil, and as I already said (Henry), you cant easily check the oil level in the gearbox, you can only fill it to the level overflow device. If it's low, you have no idea how low unless you measure what you put in the top until it overflows. It's a very common malpractice among supposed experts to fill the gearbox through the level plug. It's not the end of the world, but it's not accurate, and if you have drained the transfer casing, you'll need to put some in there anyway but this is taken care of automatically with the correct filling procedure. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1026 Registered: 8-2001 |
Gear oil has a "sulfur" (rotten egg) odor to it, while engine oil doesn't.......should be easy for your neighbor to tell. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1025 Registered: 8-2001 |
Finding out what type of oil it is should be easy.......just check the levels of the engine oil and the gear oil before and after a drive, then check which needs oil to fill. Didn't you have to add gear oil after each installation of the bell housing? I had to drain mine from the rear gear cover, even before I started to take it apart......then had to add about 1 quart after all was assembled. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2003 |
Phil, The oil that is leaking is, in fact, a very light color. It is hard to tell if it is thicker than motor oil because it is always very hot while leaking, and thus thin. All I can say for sure is that it is oil, not brake fluid. Let's presume gear oil. When rebuilding the slave cylinder, there were two seals on the collar that holds the release bearing, which I replaced. I didn't turn them inside out, but didn't think there was an 'up' or 'down' side either. I noticed that the collar did stick in the full up position, but didn't think that would be a prob as the bearing would push down somewhat after being installed. I assumed there would also be a flow of oil to lube the seals. I guess you are saying it is likely that these seals are damaged and have to be replaced again? Do you happen to know the part number for that seal so I don't order the wrong one? Thanks again for your help. Jim | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2003 |
When re-installing the slave cylinder guide sleeve/housing onto the bellhousing, it is possible to flick the gear oil seal inside out, or crease it if you're a bit rough with it. Or if you didn't lube it a little first, it may be "burned". There is also an o ring on the edge of it, but that's usually no drama. I think your leak may be this gear oil seal, not engine oil or brake fluid from the clutch slave. The engine oil is almost always darker than gear oil so maybe you can compare colours better? To actually check the precise gear oil level is near impossible, as there is an overflow device fitted behind the level plug, inside the gearbox. You need to remove the level plug (under the bell housing, hidden up on the back of the box), and then fill the entire transmission through the plug on top of the transfer housing, until oil pours out of the level plug. It's in your owners manual..... There's still a possibility of engine oil leaks without it being the rear crank seal. There are oil gallery bungs (like sump plugs) behind the flywheel that can sometimes leak or come loose, but it is quite rare. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hank, I got two new o-rings with the new clutch, the larger was damaged while installing, so I used the one that was on there beforehand, since it wasn't leaking originally. So when the first leak was occurring, it was a new small one and old large one. Phil, I am at a disadvantage because I can't smell. My neighbor assures me it is oil, not gear oil. It seems like oil in feel and appearance. It only starts to leak when I drive the car, then when I take a lap around the block and return to garage, it is leaking profusely. I replaced all the seals in the slave cylinder during clutch rebuild. Because the leak is so profuse, I am really questioning whether it is the o-rings at all. When it is bolted on, the oil runs out the bottom on both sides. When it is openned up, and of course the car is not running, it is not leaking. Phil, I did take the base beneath the slave cylinder off and perhaps didn't put adequate sealer on that when I put it back together. Or maybe I forgot to put sealer on that part at all?? Would that expain it? Would that be gear oil or just oil if it was leaking there? Maybe that is the source of the leak. I recall there was a bearing under that piece. Would that even be a potential source?? I am curious. How can I rule out the rear main crankshaft seal? Just by the fact that it was dry when I started? Wouldn't that be a profuse leak if it was disturbed? Is it possible to disturb from hard taps on the housing and therefore clutch shaft against the pilot bearing? Also, given the amount of oil that has leaked by now, if it was gear oil (although I don't think it is), where would I check the level? If that is normal, then that would rule out gear oil. I am curious about the gear oil. It didn't seem to me that there was any gear oil when I take it apart. There is the brake fluid which feeds into the slave cylinder and there is oil that feeds into the gearbox on the back of the bell housing. Phil, Are you sure that the '91 TR has gear oil in the bell housing unit? On the good side, I can tear it down in about an hour now! I have made it a time trial so that I don't get so frustrated at having to do it over and over! Unfortunately, I have to go to Denver for most of the week so I will have to wait until Friday to tackle it now. I will order or pick up some new o-rings from F-dealer in the meantime. Thanks again for the help. (Sorry this is so scattered, I am tired from going to the Brickyard 400 race today.) | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jim. The o rings seal gear oil. You need to establish what oil the leak is. Check the smell and colour of the engine oil compared to your leak. Generally, the bell housing o ring size is important and should not be varied from original. In most cases the o rings will seal quite well with no added sealer at all, but a bit of insurance is always re-assuring so most of us put some on. Any brand within reason will work. If you have a gear oil leak it could also be the input shaft seal inside the bell housing behind the release bearing....did you disturb the housing when doing the clutch job?? Did you wash it too thoroughly with brake cleaner/petrol or something?? Good luck and keep us informed! | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1023 Registered: 8-2001 |
Are both of the original O-rings bad? Are the ones you replaced, from Ferrari, bad? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1022 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jim: It is hard to believe that you are still having this problem. Did you use the original O-rings that came with the clutch? The stiffer O-rings are used in situations where the parts move, not in a static situation.......always want to use the soft ones in this case. What specifically happened to the original O-rings that you used.......did one get caught on the lip and became distorted? On my car, I used the O-rings that came with the clutch........used sealant, and no problem. You probably used the wrong O-ring. From what I have learned, the O-ring must compress about 20% to seal......so, if you used a larger, and harder O-ring, then that might explain your problem. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2003 |
Well, after redo with grey sealant, and 24 hour wait to cure, same problem. I was not able to find identical o-rings, so used some that were same inside diameter and slightly thicker and stiffer, thinking this would help, but maybe it hurt. I am thinking...why not cut out a gasket and use that? What's up with the o-rings anyway?? Are they that particular?? I guess I should order a new set of OEM rings and try again... | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2003 |
You would think that for around $2000 they could throw in a tube of the proper sealant....It looks like the original sealant on it was white. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2003 |
OK, thanks again Hank. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1008 Registered: 8-2001 |
BTW: I have cleaned the O-rings DRY........placed them on the tubes........coated them with Ultra-Grey, as with the general area.......then installed the bell housing. I didn't use the car till the next day. Ultra-Blue is too soft compared to Ultra-Grey. I have driven over 400 miles on the Boxer since I installed the bell housing, with NO leaks. The TR bell housing is the same as the Boxer's. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hank, I used a black sealer, which I got from my neighbor (who uses it on his Viper race car. The F-tech didn't say anything about it, so I guess it was OK, but I am going to take your cue and use Ultra-Grey this time so I don't have to do this again (hopefully). I am going to get a new o-ring too, since I don't want to reuse the one that failed. Are there different quality o-rings?? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1007 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jim: Glad to hear that the discs are OK. The next, obvious, question is, what kind of silicone sealer are you using? In the past I have used Permatex Ultra-Blue, but have since found out that it is ONLY a mild sealer, and NOT a gasket type sealer.......which you need. I have since switched to Permatex Ultra-Grey.......works a whole lot better for sealing. Last year I replaced a valve cover gasket on my TR using Ultra-Grey........NO leaks since. Ultra-Grey is a little thicker than Ultra-Blue, hence, better in sealing where leaks can occur. Seal it one evening, and wait till the next day to use the car. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hank, I put the o-rings into the groove on the housing, very sparingly per Ferrari tech's suggestion. We had the motor running within an hour. I am wondering if the silicone didn't set up?? Maybe we just touched it to something. I will try it your way this time. The good news is that it only took an hour to tear down this time, and there doesn't appear to be any oil on the clutch disks. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1002 Registered: 8-2001 |
It appears it is leaking gear oil.....right? When installing the bell housing, did you slide the O-rings on the tubes of the cover, or in the grooved area of the block? I slipped mine over the tubes, and used sealant around them, and the small area of immediate contact...then I put the bell housing on. With the housing off, if you see oil in the disc area, then you should clean the discs......I would used brake cleaner, and lots of it.....let them hang on a line for a day to facilitate total drying. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 102 Registered: 6-2003 |
Do I need to pull the clutch off to check the plates for oil? Is there any benefit or way to clean them if there is some oil on them? | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 101 Registered: 6-2003 |
The source of the leak is definately the bottom half of the bell housing. I noticed that the o-rings were a very loose fit, with silicone basically running about a half mm around the lip of the hole. I wonder if the nuts around the bell housing can be tightened and stop the leak?? I guess I will give that a try, and if it doesn't help, start tearing it down.  | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 100 Registered: 6-2003 |
I forgot to mention, the oil is hiting both rear engine mounts and both sides on top of engine (pooling there!), seemingly more on the passenger side. I can see the clutch cover, though, and touch it, and it doesn't seem to be covered with oil. It is not hitting the deck lid, and seems to be mainly engine level and down around engine mounts. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 99 Registered: 6-2003 |
The oil smells like oil, and it is hard to see where it is coming from exactly, as it sprays around pretty good when I am driving...even up to the top of the engine...suggesting to me that it is coming from inside the bell housing. Could be that it is squirting inside? Why wouldn't it leak when it is sitting and running? The brake resevoir is not down, and it is oil, but I don't think it is gear oil although I am not sure of the diff in smell. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 260 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jim, Likey, one of the two o-rings which seal the bell housing cover to the rear of the transaxle are damaged...You can verify this visually, before pulling the bellhousing as the leak will typically be to the left of center, as viewed from the rear of the car...Either way, if oil is a leaking, the bellhousing needs to come off. If the rear main seal was dry when you orginally pulled the clutch, it should still be dry, as whacking on the flywheel will not damage the seal... Hmm, does the oil smell like gear oil? Regards, David | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4306 Registered: 9-2001 |
I believe the clutch slave uses the brake fluid - is your reseviour down? | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 98 Registered: 6-2003 |
As luck would have it, I now have an oil leak following the recent clutch replacement and slave cylinder rebuild in '91 TR. First noticed a rather profuse leak immediately after clutch/slave cylinder rebuild, which occurs while driving (presumably due to clutch action). I know I will have to at least pull the bell housing (where the oil is coming from) but not quite sure how to determine the source of the leak. I am thinking I should put some dye in the oil and drive a bit before teardown to try to get a better idea of the source. I am a little perplexed because it appears the slave cylinder works with brake fluid, not oil. Is it possible that I damaged the rear main crankshaft seal while banging with mallet on the bellhousing when reinstalling the clutch?? (Didn't touch the rear main seal otherwise.) Anyone ever experience a similar problem? Any ideas? |