| Author | Message | ||
| Nick Scianna (Nick)
|
Wow! I have been away from the Chat site for a while,busy making POWER!It great to see some happy ignition guys out there.With respect to the direct coil system,every Ferrari 308/328/Mondial car needs one,that's just a fact.I know that Paul,Herbert & Mark and quite a few others that have purchased our modified Electromotive version would agree that it was the best investment dollar wise they have made from a performance,reliability & state of the art stand point.NO more CAPS,POINTS ROTORS,EXPENSIVE WIRES, Marelli GREMLINS! I have a 308 running on those cheap $24.00 ACCEL Yellow ignition wires for over a year now on one of our test cars,its great!As far as set up goes,Cam timing/compression & advance curves,that's something I will leave out of this post or any post for that matter as it is far too technical for your average DIY mechanic,it has taken years of understanding the 308 series engines and how they operate in the real world,[not on paper or Dyno's] to understand how cam events/timing & dynamic compression effects this particular engine,along with how cool the engine actually runs when it is set up correctly,in any event,the nice thing about the system is you can detune the car like Ferrari did to meet the cold start DOT/EPA guidelines or you can set the car at 3.0 % co and crank that advance knob FOR THE TRACK and let her RIP!,that's your choice,but at least with this system you have a choice,another very importiant feature is that in the 80-84[any duel Marelli ignition box set up] injected cars, this system can save you thousands of dollars in the long run if one of the marelli boxes goes nuts,it can cause a camshaft to jump a tooth if the car bucks backwards!I noticed there has been some pricing questions out there and it does vary if it is a 2 valve or a 4 valve due to the ignition wires,the 4 valve has very expensive spark plug boots! With our modified systems,you get all necessary components right down to the ignition wires,Taylor's in your choice of colors, red,blue or yellow,relay,mounting brackets, ALL TACHOMETER MODIFICATIONS SO your FACTORY TACH WORKS! magnetic sensor,triggerwheel & the biggest thing of all,no butchering of the harmonic balancer,also infinite adjustment of the triggerwheel due to how it is mounted and FULL 24 HR TECHNICAL SUPPORT for the installation.New versions of the system will be ready to ship by the end of the month.With any modification always start on the safe side and work your way up and READ the SPARK PLUGS,they do not lie!Nick Scianna. | ||
| Dirk Rabenschwanz (Dirk)
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Paul, thanks a lot for Your description. On my car its a little bit more difficult. I have tried to adjust by the screw on the distributor. But the ECU in my car corrects this by the electrovalve. Next i will try to remove these valve. Thanks Dirk | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Dirk, Between the fuel distributor and the airbox collar is a little round aluminum plug that is pressed in, I drilled a small hole in it then put a screw in it and pulled it out with a pair of pliers. Inside is an allen wrench ajustment, clockwise to richen, MUST USE AN EXHAUST GAS ANALYZER and remember when setting to put your finger over hole then rev engine leaving finger over hole and check analyzer (the ajustment hole sucks air that is why you must put finger over it.) I then put some JB Weld in the backside of plug were screw came through (leave screw in place)let it dry, this will seal plug from any vacuum leaks around screw. Put plug back in after it dries and tap lightly with a hammer to seat. I went from a .66 CO and 1588 HC to a 2.7 CO and a 500 HC (No smog control devices) | ||
| Dirk Rabenschwanz (Dirk)
|
Paul, You want to put it on a dyno ? Yes, that would be very interesting for me. How Do You control the fuel mixture ? The 83QV doesnt have lambda control, Do You regulate the mixture on the distributor ? I have thought about to control the pressure valve, which make the fuel mixture on my car, by an custom ECU which controls not for pollution but for power. The lambda value for pollution is "1" for performance it is "0.9". Dirk | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Dirk R. -- Another factor (besides CR, ign. timing, and exhaust) where the non-US versions usually have a slight HP edge over the US versions is in the camshaft valve timing with the non-US versions having a bit more duration (I'm unsure about lift differences, if any). The camshaft valve timing is usually shown in the General Specs section of the OM so perhaps those with a US and non-US 308QV OM could post the values for comparison. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
|
Dirk, Brett is correct about US version having lower compression, as for timmimg these are the #'s First #'s at 5000 rpm's.......2nd # at 1000 rpm's .............................. NV= no vacuum US 4 valve 32 degree's...........-3.....NV= 6 US 2 valve 36 degree's...........-3.....NV= 6 Euro 4 Valve 32 degree's.........10.....NV= 14 Euro 2 Valve 36 degree'.......... 2.....NV= 6 There is no doubt that the euro's are faster for not only is it the ignition cure but two cats and all the other assorted pollution crap. I believe that with my removal of all that crap which allowed me to also increase the mixture on the Fuel injection and the direct coil ignition sytem I probably am producing 280 hp and will know for sure when I put it on dyno some day. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I know they run higher compression (8.6:1 on US, like 9:1 on Euro). | ||
| Dirk Rabenschwanz (Dirk)
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Paul, i have a 84QV in US spec. Do You think the US QVs detuned mainly by the ignition timing ? Have You compared this with a euro QV ? I ask because i think the Euro QVs are much more faster than the US Versions and i want to have these performance. Dirk | ||
| Mark (Mnmark)
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I installed one of Nick's Electromotive HPV-1 systems, er, my mechanic installed it. It is a DIY, but I have neither tools, space, nor ability. I had Nick send everything, wires, etc. Nick buys the unit from EM, then does the necessary machining to get the unit to fit a 308. I suppose if you are a machinist, you could buy from EM and do that youself, too. REason for post is for those of you asking about cost. I had my local, non-Ferrari guy install this, he had no problems doing it, told me Nick was really helpful in going over the process before starting. I got charged $200 for the install, new plugs, etc. EM HPV-1 is similar to what all cars use now, even Explorers. MSD, Crane, etc still use distributors, right? So, still older technology (even if far advanced from 1982), but less costly. Depends on yer wallet, I reckon. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Okay, here's the XR700 control box: (its dimensions, ROUGHLY speaking are 3½" wide X 4½" long X 1½" tall)  Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the springs on the advance arm (nor am I about to run down to the garage and tear my dist's apart again just to get a shot!). All I can say is that a spring (about 1/4" OD X 3/8" long) sits in a thin wall cup. This cup slides in the bore of the advance arm. There is a pin that passes through this spring and cup, it has a round head that protrudes from the arm (as can be barely seen in my photos) and this head rests along the wall of the shaft-cup housing. There were a few spacers in a couple of the spring stacks. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Peter, Great pictures. I wonder if you could post a shot of an XR700 amplifier box and one of the advance mechanism springs. Thanks, Bill | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Ooops, forgot one! Here's a better pic, an exploded view of the distributor  | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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I have the XR700's. After setting static timing, adjusting it at idle speed and confirming advance at 5000 RPM (per factory #'s), I'm now happy with my system, I can redline the motor and it'll reach it smoothly. I have all the original wiring in the loom intact, for an easy return to the original system if need be (for originality's sake). I've spent as much on the kit as I would a set of original points and condensors. I disassembled the advance mechanism, relubed it and it runs as it should (my weights were not sloppy and springs intact). The control boxes are discretely hidden above the rear wheel-well below the oil-cooler duct - totally out-of-sight. In other words, I'm very happy with my system and I'm assured reliabilty. Here are photos of some of these items: The distributor  Advance arm and weights   Points  Infra red trigger sensor  | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Sorry about the double post guys. Scott, The mechanical advance is a pair of weights, underneath the point plate, that swing out under centiphicale force. In doing so, they advance the contact points to open sooner, as a function of rpm. The mechanism is subject to corrosion and wear. Specifically, the pivot points wear, the springs fatigue and corrode, and the lubrication dries out. This affects the effective ignition timing curve. Furthermore, the advance mechanisms, in both distributors, should act identically. Otherwise, the front bank and the rear bank will have different advance characteristics. Distribution of spark, via the rotor and cap, has no effect on spark timing. Yet, erosion of the tip of the rotor and the terminals on the cap will eventually result in unacceptable clearances. The cap is also subject to carbon tracking (shorting), cracking, and wear of the central carbon bushing. When this occurs, you need to replace the cap(s) and rotor(s). Point based systems are also subject to moisture. The Crane system relies on all this hardware, except the points, to work. It replaces the contact points with a photo diode and a shutter wheel, which are very precise. Point sets, on the other hand, are mechanical. Their springs are subject to fatigue, resulting in point bounce at high rpm, while the contact points themselves are subject to erosion and pitting. The Crane system, and similar products, solve the problems associated with the point sets, but not the advance mechanism, nor the synchronization between the distributors. The final problem with the factory system is that the distributors are keyed to the ends of the camshafts. The timing belts turn the camshafts at half speed, but the camshaft is subject to 8-valve spring loads every 2 revolutions and the belts stretch with time. The result of all this is that timing is not as precise as when attached directly to the crankshaft. Bill | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Beautiful Pics Paul. That camera must have one hell of a wide angle lens on it. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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The promised photo's (308 GTS QV) Cannot mount HPV in same place as 2 valve due to oil cooler.      | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Christiank, Good point. Nicks system apparently doesn't require machining of the outer ring of the damper. I haven't seen it, but I would sure like to. I had the inner surface of the outer ring cut about 0.060 inches to provide clearance to the engine case, radious the transition zone, drill and tap 6-holes in the damper outer ring, and dirll 6-holes in the trigger wheel for mounting, about $85 by a local machine shop. I also had the trigger wheel nickel plated for corrosion protection. The plater elected to deposit flash chrome for further protection. To be perfectly correct, more should have been taken off the engine side surface of the damper to preserve the stock damping characteristics. Polar moment of inertia and all that good stuff. With the little more inertia I wound up with, the torsional damping will have been tuned to a slightly lower frequency then Ferrari intended, but its pretty close. Nicks system will be tuned to a slightly lower frequency, but probably no big deal. The other reason I probably should have taken off a little more, is because I still had an interference with the engine case. I wound up removing a small crescent of material from the engine case of about 0.020 material with a die grinder to provide clearance with the engine cover. This is a small adjustment, but a scar non-the less. Bill | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
|
Guys, thanks for the quick response. I am looking at this as one of my winter porjects and I am just trying to gather info at the moment. I just want to clarify one thing (bear with my ignorance on this). Bill, when you say "factory mechanical advance mechanism" you mean the distributor - right? The spark is being "mechanically" ditributed by the rotor cap via the crank? So the Crane system retains the distributors while nick's eliminates them in lieu of an ignition box that electronically distributes the spark thus giving all of the programability/adjustability of the system? I'll check out nick' site and wait for some more pictures to post. Then I can see all of the componets and get a grasp on the concept before inquiring to much further - thanks for your time. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
|
Christiank, Good point. Nicks system apparently doesn't require machining of the outer ring of the damper. I haven't seen it, but I would sure like to. I had the inner surface of the outer ring cut about 0.060 inches to provide clearance to the engine case, radious the transition zone, drill and tap 6-holes in the damper outer ring, and dirll 6-holes in the trigger wheel for mounting, about $85 by a local machine shop. I also had the trigger wheel nickel plated for corrosion protection. The plater elected to deposit flash chrome for further protection. To be perfectly correct, more should have been taken off the engine side surface of the damper to preserve the stock damping characteristics. Polar moment of inertia and all that good stuff. With the little more inertia I wound up with, the torsional damping will have been tuned to a slightly lower frequency then Ferrari intended, but its pretty close. Nicks system will be tuned to a slightly lower frequency, but probably no big deal. The other reason I probably should have taken off a little more, is because I still had an interference with the engine case. I wound up removing a small crescent of material from the engine case of about 0.020 material with a die grinder to provide clearance with the engine cover. This is a small adjustment, but a scar non-the less. Bill | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
|
Nick's system was the way I chose for two reasons 1) Nick is always there when I need him and I know that he will back up his design if it is required. Nick has made owning a Ferrari a pleasure even when things were not so right. 2) The system from Nick is ready to bolt on, otherwise you would have to remove the Harmonic balancer and adapt a trigger wheel to fit and this calls for some fair amount of machining talent. You would also have to design and produce a mount system for the pick-up sensor. I spent amount 10 hours installing (and removing all old components, coils,dist's, ECU's) and I was done the car started like it was supposed to, that's a nice feeling. I will post photo's tomorrow and you will see what Nick Supplied.........I believe price of complete system including machined distributer replacement covers is around $1700 but ask Nick. The electromotive system is far superior to a Crane or MSD type system, the EM sytem is a Direct Coil to plug system very similar to what is used on the 355 and 360. To compare them is Apples and oranges. Note: install is somewhat easier on two valve cars then it is on 4 valves like mine. | ||
| Christiank (Christiank)
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From what I know it really depends how much time you want to put in your own developement and also how much frustration you like along the way. Also for a person who does NOT want to ruin the harmonic balancer for coming generations or resale can only go with Nick/s system. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Scott, There are a number of systems out there that can be retrofitted to point based systems. One of the more popular systems, is the Crane XR700, which is also inexpensive. It eliminates the points, but it and others, rely upon the factory mechanical advance mechanism. When I bought my car, I also bought a couple of XR700 systems with the intention of converting over. I had good experience with this system on my Lotus Elan. The manufacturer gave a life time guarantee which I successfully tested at one time. Further investigation revealed my 308 had already been converted to this system but the mechanical advance mechanism needed a complete rebuild. I elected to discard both distributors in lieu of the Electromotive system which provides very accurate timing and is easily adjustable. It eliminates the need for points, rotors, condensers, and distributor caps. It does require some fabrication and work to install. An XR700 system will cost you about $200 to install and an HPV-1 system will cost about $700-1500 to install DIY. The dollar amounts are ball park from memory, which isn't as good as it used to be. Bill | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
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Has anyone ever heard of, seen or used other ignitions systems like Crane, MSD or Accel on a Ferrari? Or are only the "Ferrari specific" systems like Nick's the ones that will work? Also how much does Nick's system cost? | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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I make my own using Belden wire from bulk rolls. To be perfectly honest, I have heard of crossfire all my life but cannot ever name one single case or incident of actually seeing or witnessing it happen and believe me I have worked on enough cars that if it was common, I would have seen it before now. I have now repaired over 30,000 cars over my career. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Paul, Thanks for the correction, I was scratching my head on that one. Hebert, You mounted your HPV almost exactly like I did mine. Very sanitary. The one thing I noticed is that you apparently found out that it was OK to run the Plug wires together using the factory looms. I assumed it was acceptable to run wires sharing a common coil together but I thought running wires together from different coils might induce unwanted pulses in the adjacent wires. Apparently this is not the case. What kind of wires are you using? Thanks, Bill | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Bill, I made a mistake in my previous post (misunderstood Fred at EM) Disregard by math about my advance, The statement about 14 degree's after TDC as peak point is correct. My advance #'s are: 20 degrees @ 1000 36 @ 3000 40 @ 8000 | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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Here is a picture of the unit installed on my 82 308  | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Bill, Starting is quick and reliable as it was before the switch, idle seems fine both with AC on and off (still hot in FL). My understanding from Fred at EM is that in any engine the ultimate power comes when the ignited gases expand to their maxium at 14 degrees After TDC (no matter who makes the engine), therfore based on my settings at 3000 rpm's (36 degrees) I am firing at 22 degrees before TDC (36-14=22) and at 8000 rpm's 26 degrees before TDC. This all will probaly change after the vacum module arrives but right now every time I drive the car I can't get over the difference. Paul | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Paul, Your latest settigs look a better. I'm curious how the car starts and idles. I believe the way the timing works, the engine will first fire at TDC where you set the trigger wheel. When 400 rpm's are attained, you will get an immediate advance to your inital timing of 20 degrees BTDC and once 1000 rpm is attained your will begin to ramp up toward your 3000 rpm break point. In order to have flexibility in meeting NOx emissions requirements, I set my trigger wheel at 6-degrees ATDC (TDC on the 12th tooth), with an initial advance of 3 degrees. This gives an effective idle setting of 3-degrees ATDC which is what the owners manual calls for. After emissions testing, I'll reset my initial setting to give an effective timing of 8-12 degrees BTDC which I believe is in line with euro and early 308 specifications. I think you're still a little agressive with your overall advance of 40 degrees. You might consider backing off a couple degrees on your initial setting of 20 degrees BTDC to 18 degrees. This will give you an overall effective advance of 38 degrees which imho is still pretty agressive. I still think the biggest danger, if you drive agressively, is a build up of heat in the combustion chamber. You don't want to get into a detonation zone where instead of a controlled fast burn, you wind up with the end gases exploding. This causes a lot of heat, weakening the aluminum piston crowns, and explosions that cause shock waves. The end result can be a hole in your pistons. Installation of the vacuum advance module should give you the best of all worlds, modest advance under full load conditions and agressive advance under part throttle conditions. Thanks for sharing this information Paul and I look forward to your ongoing experiences. Bill | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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David, The nice thing about this ignition system is you can set it to meet Calif specs when you need to and then go back to performance settings. This system has made a difference in my 308 gts QV that is truly un believeable, it is truly day and night. It took me some 10 hours for the installation and in the process I removed some $4000 worth of potential major problems (2 ECU's, 2 Dist's, 2 coils). | ||
| David Harris (Dakharris)
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Paul: Am I correct in assuming that you do not have smog testing in your state? These modifications sound great but would likely land me in a California jail. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Another update!!!!!! Just got off the phone with Fred at Electromotive (they are the manufacture) and Bill you are correct about my timming but the damage would not be to the piston but to the connecting rod or main bearings. My last update on timming setup is ok for crusing but any hard exceleration would probaly snap a connecting rod. So until I install my Vacum Module (Fred is sending it) My new settings are as followed: 1000 rpm's now 20 degrees 3000 rpm's now 16 degrees = 36 degrees 8000 rpm's now 04 degrees = 40 degrees Now here's some of the best news regarding this system, my exhaust manifold temps have dropped some 250 degrees (yes 250 degrees) and my coolant temp has dropped some 15 to 20 degrees and here is the reason : In order for Ferrari to meet pollution levels they set idle advance to only 2 degrees which increased engine temps to run 200 to 300 degrees hotter at idle then at operating speeds, the higher idle temp assisted in burning out hydocarbons and allowed Ferrari to meet pollution #'s. So at idle with my intitial advance set at 20 degrees car now runs 250 + degrees cooler (exhaust manifold) and coolant temp drops 20 degrees. All my temps were measured with an acurate laser temp device. Bill, Thank you for the warning... it made me do my homework and saved a connecting rod or two. Also Nick was on top of this too recomending that I go to Vacum module before doing anymore advance. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Advance setting update: At 1000 rpm's now 20 degrees At 3000 """"""""" 45 degree's AT 8000 """"""""" 55 degree's Engine temp (coolant)is now running 15 degree's cooler then with factory ignition system. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Bill, Im my conversations with Nick he has stated that I can increase my advance even more but that I should drive it this way for a while. Once colder plugs are installed I will tweak it up a few more degree's. remember to bring your advance settings back down before you activate vacum module. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Paul, That's a lot of advance. You're running about 17 degrees more than my current settings, but I haven't gone thrugh emissions yet, which is my first goal. After that, the plan was to start bumping up the timing, a little at a time. Are these the settings Nick recommended? Please be careful. The factory advance curve on my US spec 78 GTS, shows a total advance of 33 crank degrees +/-2 degrees. I'm sure this is very conservative but you're running 16 degrees more. With that kind of advance and hard driving, you my have more to worry about than just colder plugs IMHO. You mentioned in your earlier post that you were considering the optional vacuum advance module. I think this is a good idea to get a lot of advance safely. I installed one on my car but haven't enabled it yet buy attaching the vacuum line. I think this is safer because when the engine is under high load (a low vacuum signal), timing backs off, yet under part throttle conditions at cruise, you get the advance, the feel, and better gas milage too. You don't want to melt down a piston crown. On the other hand, if Nick or someone else has proven this kind of advance, I can become a believer too. Please keep us informed of your experiences and I can't wait to see your installation pictures. Bill | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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I just finished getting install right, had a slight temp problem which with a little help from Herb and Nick (they both made me a little wiser about advance and retard engine behavior). With it now set up properly the results in performance are even better, I can't get over the difference!!!!! Bill: intitial advance is set at 14 degrees 3000 level is set to max. 8000 is set to max. Based on above i am running: 39 degrees advance at 3000 rpm. 49 degrees advance at 8000 rpm. I am still going to tweak the advance upwards once I change plugs. I will probaly go to a colder plug NGK BP9ES from a BP8ES. Trigger wheel was set at trailing edge of 11th tooth with #1 cyl. at TDC. (mark on flywheel PMC). I will take photo's in a day or so and post. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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Paul, Is the trigger wheel set at TDC? What are you using for: Init advance? 1000 rpm? 3000 rpm? 8000 rpm? Thanks, Bill | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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SWEET! Paul that is excellent news. I am considering the system myself. Was it hard to do yourself? | ||
| Mark C. Gordon (Markg)
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I installed Nick's Krank Vent on my 308 GTSi the day it died, also seemed to be big improvement; I think direct fire will be my next big upgrade if possitive results keep comming in! | ||
| John Cortina (Johncort)
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Paul, Can you take some pix of your engine bay and post for everyone to see the system?? Thanks, John. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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The power increase is for real and is truly noticeable, the smoothness of throttle reaction makes it seem like a completely different car. One of the features of the system is that it is a "waste spark" system which means the plugs also fire on the exhaust stroke, this is to clean the plug. I am going to add the optional vacum advance module which will give me a 15 degree advance on 30lbs of vacum rather then just the liniear advance settings. Between the removal of all pollution devices and the addition of the Borla and the ignition system I have one very quick 308QV.... next electronic fuel injection!!!! (come on Nick..I' waiting). | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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Is the power increase something you can definitely feel or is it more perceived because it is smoother? | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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PAUL, tell me more!! Email me directly if you want! I was talking to Nick about the set up the other day! | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Just finished insatlling Nicks HPV-1 Direct Coil ignition system and what a difference it makes on my 308 QV!!!!!!!!!!! The acceleration is so smooth and the car is far quicker, this is great investment for reliability, performance and simplicity. Now I have a another box full of parts: 2 coils, distributors, 2 ECU's. |