| Author | Message | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ed, I got home last week from driving it and as I got out to open the garage door, I noticed whitish smoke coming out of the left pipes. I drive it as much as possible, so it does not sit much. I also use only 93 octane Chevron/Techron fuel. Joe | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1265 Registered: 2-2001 |
Was this car running fine one day then screwed up the next, or has it been sitting? | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 154 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks everybody for all the input. I have finished removing the entire FD system from the motor. David, you were dead on thanks. Ed, I checked out a few placing on the net, one being Python and they want big $$$ to rebuild/replace and it might be because they are Euro-spec but I am not sure. I will keep looking since now I have some time on my hands to clean things up on the top of the motor, Rub-N-Buff here I come! Thanks again, I plan to keep a photo log of the steps to share when it is all finished. Perhaps some hapless person might need it later. Joe | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
New member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2002 |
Joe, Through the years, I have "rebuilt" many different types of fuel distributors,including ones for Ferraris. My success rate is about 90%...would be 100%, but rust and corrosion can render an f.d. non-serviceable. Other than a "special" thin o-ring where the f.d. mounts to the housing, there not an awful lot of "stuff" inside one of these guys...Basically springs, plates...and a pintel or two. I think you'll find, upon disassembly, presuming you can get the screws which hold the f.d. housings together...that there pretty simple inside. With little exception, there idential to a k-jet f.d, as used on any VW...with a small twist due to the intergal pressure regulator. I suspect, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the the primary pintle is stuck. This could be due to mechanical reasons, or an obstruction in one of the ports from the pressure (warm up) regulator. It's been a while since I had one of these guys apart, but likely I could walk you through one over the phone... Regards, David | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1263 Registered: 2-2001 |
Go online and see what a search engine turns up. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1262 Registered: 2-2001 |
There are Bosch repair centers all over the place and I cannot believe they cannot fix one. They do all other cars with Bosch units and the TR should have little differences. | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK, This morning I swapped EMA's and the over-rich problem did not follow. I took the suspect EMA from the suspected head and put it on the good head. Sorry, no pun intended. The good head with the suspected EMA worked fine. Therefore, the original head that the problem began at is definitely the cause because it was still running too rich. I have eliminated all other possibilities and it looks like I will rebuild the fuel distributors except for one problem, you cannot get the kits to rebuild. I have called everywhere without any luck. The best bet right now is to send them to ATP in England in exchange for $420.00 each + shipping. http://www.atpelectronics.demon.co.uk/Catalogue/ferrari.htm Has anyone dealt with them? Do any of you know where it can be done here in the US or where I can get a kit? Thanks again for all the input, Joe | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1259 Registered: 2-2001 |
Just swap the actuators and see if the problem follows it. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 699 Registered: 1-2001 |
Joe � I don�t have any special information about the KE Electromagnetic Actuator beyond what�s in the TR WSM (and I�m hoping I won�t need to acquire some anytime soon  ), but if it is what�s causing your over-rich condition then I think that indicates an unwanted blockage somewhere in the EM Actuator. The described logic seems to be �higher EMA current = higher closing torque on the EMA fuel inlet valve = lower regulated pressure = rich mixture� so if for some other physical reason the EMA fuel inlet valve is held closed (or blocked), this would cause a rich condition. Fortunately, there�s a fairly decent cross-section drawing of the EM Actuator on page D76 in the WSM, and it doesn�t look too complicated. Let us know how it works out... | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1252 Registered: 2-2001 |
I do not know about a TR but those things fail pretty often on Mercedes. | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2001 |
Update #3 Switched Fuel Distributor heads and after a considerable amount of time to synchronize everything, the over rich problem followed the suspect head. Both pitles on the heads moved freely and had about the same resistance. There is only one possibility left other than a stuck valve in the head and that is a faulty electro-magnetic pressure regulator that is part of suspect head. I could not find a test for this component and I even have the factory KE-Jetronic, Bosch tech and Bosch KE-Jetronic manuals. Does anybody know how to test it? Dave R. Ed, Steve M., Ric R. Nick...? Joe | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2001 |
Another update. I just removed the fuel distributor heads and I noticed that on the suspected side, the head had no fuel sitting inside the separate cylinder connections and the left (good side) was still pooled up with fuel when I removed it. Any ideas why? Thanks, Joe | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2001 |
Update. 1. Pressurized the system and resistance from the sensor plate is the same on both sides. Sorry for the confusion but I had not tested it correctly before I said they were different. 2. Removed #6 and #7 fuel injectors (back 2) and placed in glass jars to measure amount of fuel delivered to compare volume. I then plugged the intake injector holes and started the motor. It ran rough to warm up (about 5 minutes). I will not go into milliliter measurements but over all while cold and warm (separate measurements) the suspect distributor sprayed an average of 28% more fuel than other. Both nozzles sprayed a consistent mist. BTW, the ambient temperature was not low enough to sensitize the cold start injectors. Next move; I will remove the distributor heads and swap sides to see if problem follows to left bank. If it does, I will have to get both distributors rebuilt because I spent half the morning trying to track down rebuild kits and I just cannot find a source. My distributor model is Bosch 0 438 101 024. If anybody has a source, please let me know. Rebuilds run about $600.00 each! Thanks, Joe | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
New member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2002 |
Joe, I agree with Ric's idea that there might not be any fuel pressure on the 1-6 side. However, if my initial diagnoses is correct, with the pintel being stuck up in the fuel distribtor...pressurizing the system, as Ric describes will not yield conclusive results, as you still won't feel appreciabe resistance on the plate. To be safe, first bleed down the 1-6 side by cracking lines at the fuel distributor. Then pressurize the system, as Ric describes. Check for pressure by again cracking lines on the 1-6 distributor. If there is little, or no pressure...Ric hit the nail on the head...and you'll need to check out the fuel delivery system. However, if you do have pressure...I'd be willing to venture that the problem still lies within the 1-6 fuel distributor. (It would seem that a "dead" side would not cause the car to run excessively rich, as you initially described.) Well.. gotta get back to the BB gearbox overhaul. Oh, what joy! (Feel like trading projects??) Regards, David | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2002 |
If there's no mechanical resistance on the 1-6 plate, it could be a simple as no fuel pressure. Remember the TR has two fuel pumps, two fuel pump fuses, two fuel pump relays, two accumulators and two filters! Before tearing things down, check this first. Here's a way to do a gross check to see if you're getting fuel pressure: Turn the key from off to on, but don't crank the engine. The fuel pumps normally run for a few seconds and then shut down. Do this a couple of times to build up pressure in the fuel system. Then, right afterwards, with the key off, press down on the 1-6 metering plate and listen for the fuel spray. DO THIS VERY BRIEFLY TO AVOID FLOODING (OR WORSE, HYDROLOCKING) THE ENGINE. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1241 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well, That was the simple thing, now you are going to have to try Davids idea. | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK, Ed, I removed the cold start injector from the intake, left the electrical plug and fuel line connected then put it inside a glass jar. Plugged the hole on the intake and cranked it up. The motor was warm. Motor did the same and no fuel came out of cold start injector. I will wait for more input before R and R on fuel distributors tomorrow. Please keep the thoughts coming. Thanks, Joe | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 143 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ed and David, Thank you. I do appreciate your input and will try first to disconnect fuel delivery to cold start injector. And if needed, I'll pull the distributor to check the pintle. David, yes there is very little resistance on the 1-6 plate. I should of mentioned that before. I have rebuilt others in the past but was hoping I would not have to. However, if this turns out to be the case, I will rebuild both of them. If more ideas pop up in the mean time everybody, please send them forward. Joe | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
New member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2002 |
Joe, Let's focus on the 1-6 fuel distributor. In that the engine runs rich, we'll asssume for the time being that you do not have a fuel delivery problem to "the fuel distributors". Also, we'll presume that you don't have an ignition related problem isolatated to the 1-6 bank. So...when pushing down on the 1-6 plate, you should feel resistance...similar to what you feel when pushing down the 7-12 bank. I suspect you don't as likely the 1-6 fuel distributor pintle is stuck up inside the fuel distributor body...hence the rich mixture. (When the engine draws air, the plate is "pulled" downward, while the catilever action of the pivot arm pushes the pintle upward...and supplies more fuel. I'd start by removing the 1-6 fuel distributor..flip it over...and careful remove the pintle..I believe you'll find a bit a rust and corrision on it. Ever so gently clean and reinstall. Re-check sensor plate height....and enjoy. BTW...Be sure to release the pressure in the f.i. system first.. Regards, David | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
New member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2002 |
Joe, Let's focus on the 1-6 fuel distributor. In that the engine runs rich, we'll asssume for the time being that you do not have a fuel delivery problem to "the fuel distributors". Also, we'll presume that you don't have an ignition related problem isolatated to the 1-6 bank. So...when pushing down on the 1-6 plate, you should feel resistance...similar to what you feel when pushing down the 7-12 bank. I suspect you don't as likely the 1-6 fuel distributor pintle is stuck up inside the fuel distributor body...hence the rich mixture. (When the engine draws air, the plate is "pulled" downward, while the catilever action of the pivot arm pushes the pintle upward...and supplies more fuel. I'd start by removing the 1-6 fuel distributor..flip it over...and careful remove the pintle..I believe you'll find a bit a rust and corrision on it. Ever so gently clean and reinstall. Re-check sensor plate height....and enjoy. BTW...Be sure to release the pressure in the f.i. system first..to bleed down the pressure. Regards, David | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1240 Registered: 2-2001 |
Sounds like the cold start injector on that bank is continually spraying. | ||
| F-J'87EuroTR (Ferrarijoe)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarijoe Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK, 1987 Euro-spec TR. All of a sudden the right bank, 1-6 fuel distributor has quit functioning properly. I noticed this morning when a started the motor there was smoke coming out the left tail pipe (crosses over). It smelt very rich and my first thought is that I have an ignition problem. The left bank was normal, no smoke as usual so I swapped both coils, and ECM's with no change so they are OK. Took off air filter box and rubber bellows and rechecked the base setting on the sensor plates and they are correct. While the motor was running, I pushed down on the right dist. sensor plate and the motor would not die or change for that matter. However, when I pushed on the left dist, the motor died, as it should because of too much air. I checked the resistance in the spark plug wires and they all averaged from .85-1.3 K Ohms, which is normal. I even tested for spark for each, and it too was good. I cleaned the plugs off before putting them back in and it still had the problem. I am baffled why it is dumping a tremendous amount of fuel. My WSM does not show how to test the ignition control unit so I have not done that yet. I have checked all connections within the system except the ICU. Do you have any suggestions out there? I would appreciate it. Thanks, Joe |