| Author | Message | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 972 Registered: 4-2003 |
unfortunately I can't help out too much on this one. My dealings with catalytic converters are for underground mining equipment. we have all different size cats for different horsepower machines and they are all for diesel engines where Sulfur can be a problem as well. Gas engines are forbidden underground. A shame too, it would be fun to race around in some of these tunnels in my 348. I will say that it is possible to clean a clogged cat, you do not neccessarly need to replace it. There are also shop which will rebuild them for you or build new ones. I'd have to look up the info but if you're interested let me know. Vincent. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2396 Registered: 6-2001 |
the guy to ask about this is Vincent. He works with them all the time. Art | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 562 Registered: 4-2003 |
I do not know what type of emissions a properly tuned engine puts out since I have never seen one on an infared machine. I would venture to guess that the tailpipe emissions without a cat would be significantly higher. Or else we would not have needed the cat in the first place. I have seen early 90s Hondas running without an air pump (2 way cat versus 3 way) and they burned clean. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1592 Registered: 5-2001 |
I did the test recently on my 328, the test limits are 1% CO and 150 HC, I don't think these have changed in the last 3 or 4 years.... My car has ALL of the emissions stuff on it so it passed quite easily .01 CO and 18 HC | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 560 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dave, in Cali. most cars (depends on year, passanger vehicle vs light truck, etc) have to run at 1 and 1. They lowered the standard (more stringent every year) years ago. Cali. set a goal and made it harder and harder to pass smog. Over the previous years they have leveled off. Check with your state and I will bet your passing numbers will be higher. FYI, The 1 and 1 is:1% Co or less, and 100 PPM hydrocarbons. Without a properly functioning catalyst, I think a car could be at or below 1.00% CO, but 100 PPM HC would be tough. That is why you see the smog Techs warming the cars up (driving) before the test. This is not only to ensure it is in a closed loop status, but also to get the cat up to an effective temp. I beleive in some parts of cali the 1 and 1 standard is even more stringent. Look at any modern day car and with all of the emission devices in tact they run in the neighborhood of .1% CO and less than 15 PPPM HC. It is incredible the nominal amount of smog that it puts out. Most of that is when the "reburn" takes place in the cat as it is doing most of the work in lowering tailpipe emissions. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1585 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, We have dyno emission testing in WA State. I have a friend with a 89 328, 94 348 and 92 512TR, none have cats, all pass emission test here, no problem. Maybe he is just "lucky"... I don't know, but his experience lead me to believe that a properly set up FI system, IS capable of passing, but as you mention, this may not be "typical". Respectfully, Dave | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 470 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Rob! | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 772 Registered: 11-2002 |
in the driver's door opening. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 771 Registered: 11-2002 |
I couldn't disagree more.  Perhaps this is true for a 1980's vintage, as emission standards are not as stringent. If your state requires the 'rolling road' dynamometer testing, you will fail without a catalyst. Fred, the answer you're looking for is: If it's a 1995 or older (OBD I), your engine will not suffer, if it's newer (OBD II), you will receive check-engine lights (MIL, malfunction indicator lamp) due to the post-catalyst lambda sensor 'seeing' unscrubbed exhaust. Michael, and for those who want to learn more, please refer here. | ||
| Michael Green (Michaelg)
New member Username: Michaelg Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi there. I'm still lost in the wonderous world of changing to test pipes myself. I have a 355 that had straight thru pipes on it. The car started developing a loss of oil pressure before eventually dying on me. A LOT of $$ later, I've changed the cambelts, had the engine virtually rebuild from scratch, had it all polished with rash adjusters all changed amongst other things, and had a new clutch put in while I was at it. Original exhaust is back on- but I would almost not rather drive the car without the phenonemal sound it used to make compared to now. The guy who fixed it claims I shouldn't put the old sports exhaust on as it will damage the engine, but after speaking to many on this site I'm not so convinved. I think he simply wants to sell me HIS aftmkt sports exhaust. So I have a few questions- what does the acroynm OBDI and II stand for,what do these things do, where does one look on the car to identify which of the two their car has, and finally is there a definitive explanation for either of these systems having catostrophic breakdowns when running either versions without cats, and if so are there any simple measures that need to be taken to avoid problems. Like Fred- with all due respect pls assume for the purposes of this mail I am not interested in hearing about anything other than effects on the engine and how to halt them by making any necessary ECU adjustments or such. Also- is there a identification stamp somewhere on the car that tells you date of manufacture? I've been told by a dealer that my car is a 96, but Ferrari is telling me it's late 95. confused. Many thanks . mike- | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member Username: Beast Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2003 |
Tillman; It is a federal crime for a shop to remove a catalytic converter from a vehicle without installing a new one, or notating on the repair order that the vehicle is for off highway use only. I belive the fine is in the range of $25K for the shop and $25K for the tech that removed the part. As for a private party removing a cat there is no penalty. The only problem is if you remove the cat totaly, durring a smog test if they see it missing you will fail the test. No if's and's or but's!!! | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2018 Registered: 1-2001 |
Fred -- Having the "check engine" light come "on" seems to be a common OBD2 F report after a testpipe transplant (but it gives me the willies when people just disable the light -- probably a whole bunch of other horrible things could occur that you should/would want to know about immediately -- not after the fire starts  ). However, I believe a Manufacturer could be more stringent and design a control system that wouldn't ignore an erroneous input from any sensor (e.g., "limp home" mode) so it could vary vehicle to vehicle just what was necessary (or wasn't necessasry) to keep the engine management system happy. Try a search on "cat" (parts of words), and you should get a boatload of homework/reading/previous opinion. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 469 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks!!! | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1582 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fred, Expect no engine damage, and no performance enhancement either. Slightly louder exhuast note though. Rather than gut it, I would get a test pipe and save the cat. You may one day wish to have it rebuilt. Or, if this is on a rather "common" car, then "Hog it out" and have fun....generally, if your FI is set up correctly, the car will still pass an emission test. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Intermediate Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 1258 Registered: 5-2001 |
You shouls get a big plastic bag, a heavy pair of gloves and a good mask. Then just jab and poke out the contents into the bag. You do not want any of the catalyst on or in you so BE SURE to wear the gloves and mask. Tie the bag off good and throw it away in someone else's garbage. I would recommend a big dumpster down at your local mall. Good luck | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 468 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tillman, the converter is already useless. There are just bits of ceramic that look like little rocks rattling around in there. I'm sure not very effective for the purpose intended. For now, I am only inquiring about the effects on the car/engine.........The environment, atmosphere, federal laws, ozone layer, smog, long-term-health-effects, noise ordinances, keeping cat converter employees employed, personal opinions, blah-blah-blah aren't what I'm asking. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2001 |
You do realize that it's a Federal crime to remove the converter? | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 467 Registered: 8-2002 |
Steve-when you say it's more difficult to have a non-functioning cat, what does that mean??? Will the car not run? Will you get error or check engine lights? | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 466 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rob, What is a MIL? Will removing the inside cause any damage to the engine, etc??? Do you gain any HP? | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 770 Registered: 11-2002 |
Steve, you're right. OBDII will cause an MIL, OBDI will not, you'll just kill the air and fail emissions compliance testing. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2016 Registered: 1-2001 |
Fred -- It depends on the sophistication of the engine management system of the car. Anything pre-OBD1, it won't make any difference to the car (ignoring LC's subtle expansion/contraction flow point). I believe the OBD2 cars have upstream and downstream sensors so it's more difficult to have a non-functioning cat. Unsure about OBD1 impact though. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 735 Registered: 4-2002 |
When you remove the ceramic cell structure(s), you are left with a sudden expansion, then a sudden cntraction of exhaust gases. Some people insert a straight pipe inside the old cat so the gas flow does not experience the sudden changes that increase back pressure and reduce the gas flow a little. On turbocharged cars, the improvement in engine power is quite noticeable. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 465 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rob, agreed, but..... I still want to know about the car!!! | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 768 Registered: 11-2002 |
The long term detrimental effects is to the environment, and ourselves. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 464 Registered: 8-2002 |
I am curious about catalytic converters and figured this was the place to ask. Inside, it appears to have a ceramic structure. (which is now melted/damaged) If you remove the converter, break out the innards then re-install....are there any long-term detrimental effects on the car? Or is this like having pipes? Not just asking for F-cars, I am curious about another car. Thanks! |