| Author | Message | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
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Maybe this could be a closing thought on the "slow down" lights thing, if you choose to ignore or disconnect, then any consequential FIRE will be on your own $$. I have repaired several 328 and 308 engine fires, dont take the lights too lightly, no pun intended. If you check out and don't see a glowing cat. then it may just be a false signal, however it might be a coil pack beginning to fail as well! Try to fix the warning lights first. Modern cars have too few gages IMHO much prefer to read the oil pressure/ temps than wait for the "too late!" light. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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Of course I believe in things working and the warning systems operating properly, Just making a point for both sides.Things can always seem different if they are put in a different situation. No need for anyone to get angry over a stupid light especially if it is on someone elses car. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
My oil press. sending unit malfunctioned the day I put my car back on the road in September. I ordered a new one from Superformance, but he forgot it and I'm waiting for the new one to arrive. This has gone on for a couple of months now, but did that stop me from driving my car since? All of the external signs indicate I'm getting pressure (filter canister is hot, oil cooler hoses are hot, one leaking camshaft seal, etc...) I'm using the good filter (Baldwin B253), so I know on start-up I get that shot of oil from the stand-pipe. I didn't touch the bottom-end of my motor so I know there's nothing down there to f--- up. I feel confident about my work and I sleep well at night. Bret made his comments in a joking manner and its all up to the individual to make decisions on what to do to fix this problem. This forum is just another means to get an idea of what COULD be the problem. It is known by others who have ghost messages from slow-down lights that are due to poor wire contact. Comparing airplane warning systems to Ferrari systems is like comparing pumpkins to raisins (this analogy illustrates the exaggeration between the two, not just apples to oranges, its more than that. One says hundreds of lives are at risk, the other says your wallet is at risk). | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
|
Of course not, Edward, but if the light was not working when on ground you would have it fixed before taking to the air. The Darrell Waltrip thing is completely irrelevant in this context IMHO. Things can break while you are using them and you will have to get the best out of the situation, but I am sure that Darrell Waltrip would not have started the race in the first place if he had zero oilpressure before the start. Anyway, enough said from me - my advice was meant in a positve way and I feel good about that - everybody just do what they find best for themselves. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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Would anyone ditch an airplane just because the landing gear light didn't go green? Darrell Waltrip once said that his oil pressure gauge went to zero with three laps to go while leading a race. Did he pit? Hell no, he won the race with a bad gauge. | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
|
Bret, You are hotheaded, aren't you. Let me just tell you, that I am in no way critizising your personal maintenance program. The rest of your posting I will leave uncommented, except to state that no one should rely on sensors or maintenance, but a combination of both. | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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Kurt, You are correct about the sensor thing, but the risks are very different. One difference is in a car you can easily pull over and stop, in an airplane you are strapped to the problem until landing (which from 20,000 feet plus that could be awhile.) In this case if this continued with my car, I would put in test pipes and get rid of the cats altogether. Most likely a cheaper and more permamanent fix than trying to hunt down a nick or short in the electrical system. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
|
I think relating an airplane and a car is a little bit of a stretch, I mean come on here. And don't start getting into my mainenance, because excluding a very small group here (maybe Peter and Edward) no one spends more time under that damn car than I do. I'm always under it, always. When I have nothing to do (Hello, I'm 18 there are a lot of times when I have nothing to do) I work on it and just go over things. So let's not start criticizing my tendencies. I'm simply trying to tell you something about the real world, not the aircraft industry. This is turning into one of those Ferrari, more than a car debates. It's not, it's a car, nothing more, it's a pretty friggin simple car actually. Ferraris aren't anything special, there still just a car. Every other car that doesn't have sensor's coming out of the ass runs fine. And now let's stretch it to Bret- who doesn't look at his sensors. I keep my eyes glued on them all the time, but we're talking about a cat sensor, not oil pressure or engine temp here. See I just try to nicely say, if the light's bothering you and you know nothing's wrong, hey there's an easy way to solve it which is why I didn't start ranting and raving like this before. If you're relying on sensors rather than your own maintenance to keep your car running right then you're in for a rude awakening. | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
|
I understand what you are saying, Bret, but if the lights come on something, somewhere is wrong. That must be non-debatable. How you deal with it is a different matter. In my world, the world of professional aviation, you will never accept a light on that shouldn't be on, even if you know that it is due to a malfunction of a sensor or transmitter of any kind. If you disable a warning light you will never get the warning this light was intended to give you. And you are actually saying the magic words yourself: "Either way he's not gonna know if there really is one [problem]". That sensors are not that important if you take care of your car, as you are saying, could very well end up being on the list of "Famous Last Words". By the way, you didn't answer my question - would you fly with a pilot that you knew had disconnected e.g. the fire warning systems for the engines? Even if yuo knew that he had taken care of his airplane? | ||
| Chris_N_Chicago (Chris_N_Chicago)
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Martin, the best way to fix the 1-4 and 5-8 light problem is to give your car to the nicest person on Ferrarichat with the name of Chris ( tech manual says this person should live in Chicago ) | ||
| Chris_N_Chicago (Chris_N_Chicago)
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When I was looking for my first Ferrari , I saw Dino's for sale on the net, it looked awesome! Dino you still out there ? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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If the lights on all the time he wouldn't know the difference of whether or not it's really a problem or not anyways? Either way he's not gonna know if there really is one. Although I guess we could pretend that everytime the light is coming on Martin is going under there with a digital thermometer and checking... If you take care of the car then the sensors aren't really that important in my opinion. I'm always under the thing checking all different voltages and connections, I don't rely on those cheap sensors (which in many cases doesn't work) to tell me if my car's gonna catch on fire cause I just don't trust them. | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
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Not a good idea, Bret - if there is a real problem one day you would never know. Would you like me to do the same in an airplane you might be a passenger on? LOL. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Marting how come the light bothers you so much. If you know it's not a problem, why don't you just unplug the bulb? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Update: after my last post that the light went off it went back on and was on for a while but now has disappeared again. I talked to somebody that had a 348 at the Christmas Party of the FOC Florida and he had a similar problem. He had replaced ECUs and all the other good jive. At the end it was a grounding question. That would make sense as it happend right after the engine out. Anyhow, it is of now and I would alos like to see your car in your profile and some pictures posted. Start a new conversation with your pictures and what you have done. It sounds interesting. | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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Dino....Post some pictures, at least on your profile. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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Dino, did the ECU mod(chips) do any thing to enchance the car's performance ? I've seen them advertized for around $400.00 and was considering a purchase. | ||
| Dino Micalizio (Ingenere)
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I have had my 348 ('89) for 11 years now with very few problems. I have also done some perfomance mods. Tubi exhaust, Serie Specialle front spoiler, Specialle rear lights, Specialle seats, Superchips ECU upgrade, 355 Challenge wheels, Challenge pedals, Brembo F40LM brakes. The car is absolutely bbrilliant...especially at the track!! I also have a 2nd set of Challenge wheels w/slicks. If anyone is interested in how to improve a 348....let me know...Ciao...Dino | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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UPDATE: The lioght went off the other day when I was driving for a while. Since then it has not come back on. The car runs good now and is happy to be back out. I guess her way of letting me know that 40 days at the mechanic is not acceptable to her. She wants out. I had a long talk with her and told her she does not need to go back to the hospital for a few months, just a regular check up in a few months and then it is smooth sailing for a while. She accepted my appologies and we are best buddies now again. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
I will try some Donuts when my tires are down and I have the new ones sitting in the garage. I am not sure if I want to go this to the clutch though. I am getting confused with that clutch thing anyway. Will likely start a new topic on that in General soon. How the hell do you use the clutch right? Modman; if you are okay I will post the two other pictures as well. I can resize them in a second. What type of mods you you perform? Ferrari and others or only others ? I think you can see we are intrigued. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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There was just a big discussion on the handling characteristics of a midengined car, it shouldn't be too far down the list in General Discussion. Some good stuff in it. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
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I have done donuts in my Ferrari, it's way fun. I live close to an industrial park so late at night I can goof around, cause the streets are wide and empty. I also have spun-out goning around a sharp curve. You haven't really driven your Ferrari until you have spun it at least once. Bye the way how can you straighten out the car when it does start to kick the tail out. I know in a front wheel drive car you stay on the gas and the front wheels pull you out of it, and in a front engine, rear wheel car, you lift the gas. But this is my first time owning a rear engine car, and I cant figure it out just yet. Actually where in Southern California can I drive at a track, cause I really would love to open it up big time, and the street really isn't the place to try it. Bye the way Modman how many ponies are you pushing out of your engine? | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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BTW - fantastic work! | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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please post the rest of the pictures or email them to me please :-) Thanks! [email protected] | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Bob, let me post the engine picture.  | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Modman, you are a true inspiration. I am not sure if I can part with the italian leather on my german a** but 6 inches is tempting! As far as the pictures. WHOW ! That red air box looks awesome! The intake tubes...great, much better than the stock black whatever-they-are hoses. Great that you have no fear to change things. The boys at the Ferrari Club will likely ban you for life! I love it! ROCK ON! | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
|
Well everyone, as far as for legroom you need to change the seats. I've installed MOMO reclining seats which are very comfortable and not as thick as the stock ones and will give you at least 6" more legroom and bolt on factory style- also 1/2 the weight & looks way cooler too. As far as the clutch to my amazement holds up really well and haven't changed it yet with 16k on it. You know I really believe it's how you use your clutch. I have let others drive my car while I'm in the passenger side and none of them are use to the feel of the way a Ferrari shifts so I hear a lot of clutch rubbin. A Ferrari is meant to be driven hard and not babied you shift at higher RPMs than a regular car. Has anyone done donuts on your Ferrari yet? It is the most stable car, unreal, you can sit and spin multiple times without missing a perfect circle! If one day we would all meet, I'll show you a few tricks I've done to my car- even have a screen saver of my 348 in motion on my CD player.. Oh by the way, as far as seating position make sure your wrists sit comfortably over the wheel unlike most people with their seats reclined all the way low. I've raced a good day at the track and ended up with a bruise on my right side knee area leaning against the center console from the G forces on curves but worth the fun. Remember- racing is for track not the street, you can tell any Honda or other wannabe racer "Let's see what you really got on a real race track" it's handling & power not just straight aways, these guys lower their cars improperly and they are not as rigid either. I have owned many cars from Hondas, Porsches, BMW's, Mercedes, the list goes on but none of them can outhandle the Ferrari. The closest one for a sedan is my 01 CL 600 with active suspension. Now I'm working on forced induction blowers for my 348, I'll keep you posted on how that turns out.... peace!.... | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Please e-mail some to me. What did you do for legroom? At 6'4'' every inch counts! I can not place the top behind me. NO WAY. I look like a monkey in the car if I do that! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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ModMan, post some pictures. That sounds like a fun car! BTW I tried that bigger hammer. Went to our construction chief and borrowed a sledge hammer. Took the cats out and placed them o the floor. First no difference. Then they started rattling and then they went quiet and flat! Couldnt fit them after my "test" but the car runs nice!....just kidding! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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ModMan, How has your clutch held up to the extra power and drag race starts ? Is it an OEM or high performance clutch ? | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
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Dave, I've done a few things to set my 348 apart from most others. I've changed the exhaust and intakes, headlights to HID, whole interior redone yellow and black, MOMO seats-steering wheel shift knob-4pt. harness belts and all bolts on factory. Carbon fiber center console and gauge surround-carbon kevlar door sills, HRE 18" forged wheels, custom aluminum-carbon fiber intakes for smoother air flow instead of the factory ribbed ones, and the lists go on. Take note some of these features that I added on you cannot buy because I fabricated some of these. The result is more legroom especially if the top is behind you, more upper end power- really smooth. I recommend the tubi muffler to get rid of the bulk and heat plus more power. Quarter mile times are much better- low 13's with slicks mid 13's with AVS sports ( I highly recommend AVS sports for all around- you can't beat em. I track my car for true test results. I would like to post pics but my pics are high resolution and I need to retake in lower resolution, I can email them to you if you like.. | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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Modman....what kind of mods are you doing to your 348 and what kind of results are you getting. | ||
| Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
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What's the price for 348 replacement CATs? Dan | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
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Again tapping the cats will not be able to detect the condition of the cats, surrounding the ceramic type honey comb filter is a very strong and thick steel wool so you will not hear the rattle of the ceramic material. A little secret... remove the damaged inner core, it will still pass smog with at least one good cat, the car will run better and cooler. You're welcome.... | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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You can test for a clogged cat by removing the oxygen sensor and making a fitting to adapt it to a pressure gauge. You should only have a couple of pounds back pressure. Trade secret. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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David, IMHO, tapping the cats as a test, does not fall into the "most of the time" detection of an impending cat failure. It may detect a catastrophic failure, but I don't see how it could detect much more. More likely, some of the core material has melted, closing off some of the fl0ow channels, probably in the immedeate vicinity of the inlet pipe, but nothing has broken free yet. My 308 cats have a perforated converging cone at the inlet, so I don't know if you could see damage, even if you pulled the cat and shinned a light into the inlet pipe to see if the core matrix block has begun to melt, but it might be worth a try. Bill | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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If all else fails, get a bigger hammer. That's my motto. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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If that light does not come off I will have the CATS checked first, then we will proceed to the ECUs. Tapping the Cat will give you an indication if the inside is falling apart. If it does not sound right or hollow or is rattling there is something wrong. But yes, that does not always work, just gives you a "most of the time" indication. | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
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Just because you take your Ferrari to an authorized dealer don't mean your car is being looked over carefully. I have had bad experiences with having my car serviced at the authorized dealer, you will usually get taken for thousands more than what you needed and still problems exist through poor examination. The 348 is made unlike many cars, connections are bad and parts can be delicate. I have experienced a lot of problems with mine and have a few knowledge I can share if you have with problems with yours. Fortunately I have had the problems taken care of with some knowledge and experience I have. I've had the whole interior & dash taken out to the bare and studied the car well. I hear so many problems with sensors and it seems no one bothers to check the cats, why? it simple and takes only 30 mins to take off and on. You'll thank me and yourself by doing so. Peace.. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
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David, I don't think tapping the cats with a hammer is a definitive way to check the condition of the cats. This test will not necessarily detect a partial melt down of the core, a common mode of failure. When this happens, some of the small passages get blocked off and flow can be reduced along with a reduction in active catalytic area. Bill | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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David, I believe that that could be a problem. The Cats were my first thought too but having had my 30K done just a month ago he checked the cats for rattling when hit with a hammer and they were okay. So I doubt that that is the case. The light appears to go off when driven fast but stays on for the past days when drivn normal and only short distances. I will monitor this a little further. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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David, I believe that that could be a problem. The Cats were my first thought too but having had my 30K done just a month ago he checked the cats for rattling when hit with a hammer and they were okay. So I doubt that that is the case. The light appears to go off when driven fast but stays on for the past days when drivn normal and only short distances. I will monitor this a little further. | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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Martin, my car had the same issue last year and also began to stall at red lights. Ferrari of Washington told me that the car stalled itself because the computer believed that the CATS where overheating. They replaced the ECU's and Thermocuplers and the problem has gone away. The stalling, eventually, became very frequent. The car would start right back up, but it was very annouying. | ||
| Bob Oh (Modman)
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I see typical check engine light problems and slow down light problems... well before it gets worse and need sensor replacement. Check for clogged cat convertor or convertors. 90% of the problem is in that area, the honeycomb inside sometimes fall apart and get sideways and clog up causing idle problems and sometimes causing the car to die sometimes at stops or hard starts after a drive.. | ||
| 92MondialCab (Jmg)
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I had slow down lights on 1-4 in my T when I was running at elevations above 3000'. (Drive from LA to Seattle through Reno...) Figured it was a combination of O2 sensors getting confused in the thin air, causing the bank to run lean and overheat the cats. Replaced them and the plugs, tuned and never saw the lights again. For Mark, the slow down refers to the cats reading over 900C for a bit, if the temp continues to run high, the unit will actually retard fuel until the temp goes back down. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Okay, so I picked up the car this afternoon. He had switched the Rpm Sensors to the oposite sides, checked and greased all connectors and ground. Everything is a-okay. I drive and nothing. No light....just before I reached home BANM there it is 5-8 check engine! SCREW IT, all I can say. The car also stalled when I got of the Interstate and right onto a stop light! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Thanks for all your help on this subject. I guess..."in my face" for saying I never had any electrical probelms with my car.... Enzo looking down and making sure I am not left out! When I had the car in on Wednesday the CAT sensor was the probelm code it read back to us. Then on Friday I just found out the code is now the RPM sensor code. We might have had two probelms and because of the infrequency of this check light coming on, we may have missed the RMP sensor reading the first time. You can not check a code if it does not give you a code. By the time I drive to the mechanic the damn light is back off. I will keep you posted. We are swapping the RPM sensor today and see if the problem goes over to 1-4 bank. | ||
| Mark McKenzie (Redcar)
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Mine was doing the same thing on the 1-4 side when I posted this message http://209.196.179.161/discus/messages/112/2586.html? The light still comes on occasionally, but interestingly, I have never noticed a drop in performance or any change in how the car runs with the light on. If anything on mine it seems to be getting less frequent? I'm still very unclear on this whole ck engine, slow down, light/ECU/CAT business. I'd be interested to learn what you find. Thanks Mark McKenzie | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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Martin, to be devil's advocate for the system, you may not have a problem. The light is suppose to come on if there is a problem specifically with EGT. I can think of many reasons for this to happen. It is there to warn you -- I think its only a problem if it comes on and off for no rime or reason like Chuck's car. If yours came on one day for a couple minutes then I don't see the problem really maybe there was an intemittent rich mixture or something out of wack (dirty fuel maybe?) I would only worry if it keeps this up for seemingly no reason. I say either no pobem or just a loose ground. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Chuck Rine (Chuck348ts)
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Martin, I too was having this problem a few months ago. It got to the point where it was happening every 15 minutes that the car was running. I almost bought a new exhaust ECU after determining that it was probably not the O2 sensor. (I referenced the shop and parts manuals that you copied for me.) But first, I removed both exhaust ECUs, which are very easy to access and unbolt, and cleaned all of the metal plug and pin contacts. I then swapped the ECUs, left moved to the right side and right to the left side (they are identical Vescovini units). Voila! No more "check engine" or "slow down 1-4" lights for the past 3 months. If the lights had reappeared on the opposite engine bank, then my next step would have been to replace the offending ECU. Nick Scianna can get them for less than what a FNA dealer would charge, something like $275. I'm not saying that this will fix your problem, but it's easy to do and doesn't cost a cent to try. | ||
| Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
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Martin, I've heard this same story from a guy who lives in Modesto, CA. He has a 1990 348ts. Until he had the major service done he had no problems. After the major, the damn check engine light issue popped up. I've had it also. It drives you nuts when it seems interrmintant.. I've replaced O2 sensors, CAT 10 PCUs and grounded the O2 sensors. After all that and the Ferrari tech doing some fine tuning, my ck engine lights have not been on. I've driven 5000 miles since the last light came on. Good luck. Dan | ||
| MADE100 (Noelrp)
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Yes the computer is wrong here (I learned the $$ way by spending $600 and no fix). I have seen this problem with my 348SS. I've replaced the 02 sensor, swapped out the ECU and the light will not go away. After I swapped the thermocoupler with the other bank's, the light went away. So go figure, perhaps it's an electrical grounding problem? Good luck! | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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Martin, what was the temp outside? the reason I ask is the light on my TR can come on depending on the temp outside vesus the rpms in use. If it very cool (say 50 - 55 degrees)and I do a quick high rpm run -- if I stop in traffic I can guarantee the light will come on if the engine temp is above 195 oil. Never happens on a warm day (65 and above). Drive regular in that temp of 55 degrees, doesn't come on -- do a high rpm run then stop -- light comes on for a minute or so. I am guessing it has to do with cooling of the engine. I assume the fuel mixture sensor is being fooled by the cold temp outside and giving the hot engine too much fuel. The result is too much fuel to burn -- the excess fuel gets through the engine and burns up in the exhaust - thus the high exhust temp and thus the light. I have learned to drive it differently when its cold outside and the engine is very hot and I am in a stop and go mode. On the highway its not an issue. That's just my guess on what may be happening -- you mechanics out there can correct me if I'm all wrong. | ||
| James Angle (Jimbo74)
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There maybe a break somewhere in the wire that leads up to the sensor. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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My check engine light came on the other day. I was on my way to the mechanic when it suddenly went back off. So I turned around and right before my office in slower traffic (30-50Mph)it was back on. From that point on it went off again when driver in higher RPM a while and letting it fly. Comes back on some minutes later in regular traffic. We have checked the code and it was the CAT sensor 4414 code. So we switched the sensor to the 1-4 bank to see if it is the sensor. After driving a while the 5-8 came back on. So it is not what the computer reads. Any ideas? I just had my 30K service done with full engine out. |