| Author |
Message |
magoo (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 7:50 pm: | |
Different strokes, different folks, Go by your manual or your own preference. It probably won't make a difference anyway that we will be able to tell. We're just pickin' the flyshit out of the pepper. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 11:21 am: | |
I always punch the oil filter and then go about the plug removal. Often times I pull the plug and leave it out for 30 minutes or more (I usually eat lunch, watch some of a game, do something else on the car, etc) would this give it ample time to fully drain out all of the hot oil? |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 3:40 am: | |
If you change your oil right after you shut it off then a good bit will remain in the oil cooler and lines whereas if done cold you will remove the maximum amount of old oil. If you have a bunch of suspended particles then you have a bigger problem than an oil change will cure. Also the owners manual suggests changing the oil at 7500 mile intervals or every 6 months on my 82 308. |
magoo (Magoo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:44 pm: | |
Bret, You sure called that one right. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 7:07 pm: | |
Plus when the engines nice and hot it's more fun. Trying to hold onto that 300 degree plug while scalding oil pours out, all while you make sure not to touch the 1000 degree exhaust that hovers near your knees as squeeze under a car with next to no ground clearance. I always do it when it's hot for the record. |
magoo (Magoo)
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 8:44 pm: | |
Steve, In my opinion that is the answer. The debris,microscopic particles, are still moving in the oil so draining it as soon as possible removes a greater amount of these. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 9:15 am: | |
I'd generally agree with HEG that a hot or cold oil change isn't going to make a huge difference, but I think it's better to think about this issue as "stirred up" vs "not stirred up" rather than hot vs cold. I think the main reason for the "hot" recommendation is that in theory you'll get more of the (suspendedable) debris out when you drain the oil vs doing it cold (not that you'll get more oil out). |
Neville Pugh (Nev_Pugh)
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 7:14 am: | |
> All true Edward .... but all the manuals seem so insistent about changing oil when hot, so why does everyone think it's so important (or is this just some throwback to single grade, gooey when cold oils, I wonder ?) |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 5:50 am: | |
With over 30 years experience, I really don't think it makes any difference, cold or hot. I have never seen an engine fail because the oil was changed when hot or cold. I think we are splitting hairs. Let's face it, Our cars hold two gallons of oil which is twice what the average car holds and it just is not going to make any difference. |
Neville Pugh (Nev_Pugh)
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 5:30 am: | |
Okay, I'm going to bring another point up for discussion here, sparked by Peter C's initial comments on changing the oil. The following is something I've never understood, and will always argue the point about ....
EVERYONE always says to empty the engine oil when the engine is hot. There's a logic in this, in that hotter oil = thinner oil, so it will run out of the engine quicker / better.
BUT, my argument goes like this. If the engine is hot, this means that it's just been running. This means that there's oil "splashed" all over the inside of the engine, the oil rad is full of oil, there's oil everywhere. Assuming that you dont then leave your car for several days with the sump plug out to fully drain (which I guess most of us dont) then that old oil is going to stay in the engine.
If for sake of argument however you emptied the oil when COLD, after the car has been stood for a few days (or even a week), every little last drop of oil which is going to drain down to the sump WILL be in the sump already, so if you empty the sump now you've the best chance of getting every little drop of the old stuff out ?? Okay, I know the oil will be "thicker" coz it's cold, but we're talking about modern multigrade synthetic or semi synthetics here, which are designed to be runny when cold.
So I would argue that you'd get more old oil out of a COLD engine which has been left for a few days for the oil to work it's way down to the sump.
But as this is contrary to what every workshop manual says, someone please point out where I'm wrong ?!?! :-) |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 10:47 pm: | |
What about the use of a 328 oil-pan on a 308? I've read somewhere it solved some of the starvation problems experienced (by incorporating the mods suggested by Bill Pond). Is that true? |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 7:23 pm: | |
Paul,
According to Bill Pond, wet sump 328's also suffer from this problem. The problem stems from the massive oil flow required by the 3x8 cars, which can exceed 400 gallons per hour.
Bill wrote a couple of tech articles, "308 Lubrication" and "Dry Sumping 308s/328s", that can be read at:
http://www.fca-sw.org/Features.asp?id=2
Bill suggests a 1-inch thick oil pan spacer, to increase sump capacity, will help (mabe an additional 6-seconds worth of oil pressure), but only dry sumping will cure this problem. Bill |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 6:47 pm: | |
Bill,
Do the 308 QV's suffer the same problem? I was under the impression that their baffles system was improved to deal with that right turn problem???? |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 4:02 pm: | |
Dry sump 308's are less prone to loosing oil pressure on long, right hand turns. Bill |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 3:15 pm: | |
True of race engines, but in the 308's instance, very little difference between the two. The wet-sump 308 is as close to a racing design as possible: windage tray below the crank, tall baffles with one-way trap doors.... Dry-sump 308's have an additional pick-up, a scavenge and a pressurizing pump and contain 2 litres more oil (in a remote tank). |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 1:52 pm: | |
A dry sump carries the oil in a remote location whwewas a wet sump carries it in the oil pan below the crankshaft. The advantages of a dry sump is as you caid the height as well as not having the crankshaft possibly dipping into the oil reservoir and causing additional drag on the engine. Also a dry sump oil system usually runs a cooler oil temp since the oil is not continually exposed to engine heat and can hold considerably more oil. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 12:53 pm: | |
What's the difference between a wet and dry sump engine? When did the 308 make the switch (I think it did)? What are the advantages and disadvantages (I know that with a dry sump the engine can be lower in the car because there isn't the oil pan below it). Does this mean that there is a remote oil source?
My 85qv says 6-8 quarts of oil, 6 being min, 8 being max. When I change I just put 7 in. Then the next time I check I bring it up to max. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 12:49 pm: | |
My 85 also says 15 minutes after. I usually try and stick pretty close to that. I leave the car outside and then I figure it takes me a little while to get a rag, some oil, funnel, etc to bring out there in case I need to add, that takes me 10-15 minutes and then I go check so it works out well. |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 11:44 pm: | |
Magoo,
Mine is an 83 308qv. For the record I usually just wait 3 or 4 minuts to check because often times I will plan to check it in 15 minuts but forget. But my maual does say wait 15 for "precise checking" |
magoo (Magoo)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 11:28 pm: | |
Well lets debate this because the 79 308 GTS manual says check just after stopping. Which makes sense since the oil radiator does drain back into the sump giving a high reading. What Ferrari do you have. Maybe we are talking about a different set up on the oil radiator on another model. However Nevs car is a 308GTS which I quoted from that manual on checking the oil just after stopping because of the drain off of the oil radiator into the sump. |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 11:12 pm: | |
My manual says to check the oil when the engine is warm a few minits after stopping. Then it says (15 minuts for precise checkings) |
magoo (Magoo)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 10:48 pm: | |
Peter, My point exactly, only wait approx. 1 to 2 minutes after stopping the engine and then check the oil level for a true reading. |
Peter Connolly (Mondial_32_Aus)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 10:42 pm: | |
I have a Mondial 3.2, Ferrari in Sydney say that the 308 & 328 use the same amount of oil, at a Ferrari Australia Tech Night for the Ferrari Club of Australia last week, we did an oil change on a Mondial 3.2. Our tech was the Ferrari Service Manager for Australia/New Zealand.
The car in question was cold, the tech said this was ok, a warm engine is ok too but not essential for this procedure. The tech first drained on the oil with the car on a level surface, he then removed the oil filter, next he replaced the oil filter and added exactly 8 litres.
He states that 8 litres is required without a filter change, 8 1/2 litres with a filter change. After adding the 8 litres you start the engine and run for 1 minute. After stopping the engine, weait 1 minute and look at the dipstick, if it is on max then ok, if not then add in 200-500 ml amounts, resart the engine for a minute, wait a minute and check the dipstick again. Do not add more than 9 litres, end of story.
PC |
magoo (Magoo)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 10:40 pm: | |
Paul why would you wait 15 minutes before checking the oil? The manual says check just after stopping ; in this way radiator oil does not discharge into the sump giving a false over full reading. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 3:50 pm: | |
Start with 7 quarts and then run car, stop car wait 15 minutes and check oil.
This is safest and most foolproof way. |
Neville Pugh (Nev_Pugh)
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 3:40 am: | |
The handbook for my 308GTS euro wet sump carb lists two figures for the amount of oil for an oil change (incl filter) ..... 7 litres and 9 litres !!
Which is it ?
Dont want to overfill by 2 litres :-)
Ta ! |
|