| Author | Message | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
New member Username: Kermit Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2001 |
In regards to the topic of porting, velocity, et al: Velocity is VERY important, and is of paramount importance in a street driven Ferrari. One must consider the 308 we are discussing is early 80's technology. Recontouring the ports to maximize combustion is the name of the game in todays world. "Tumble and Swirl" is a phrase used in flow. This relates to what happens to the mixture once it gets into the chamber. By understanding how to creat the greatest turbulance at the time of spark is an important part of making an effecient motor, and of course more powerfull as well.Turbulance dramatically improves the spread of the flame(combustion).The result is a greater push on the piston top...more power than before. It is definately NOT all about "hogging out the ports".It is more a refinement of what is already there. To accomplish this, much time must be taken with special measuring devices, so that material may be removed greatly in the important areas.The rest of the port is enlarged slightly. Shape is everything. The stock induction I find to be well up to the task, as well as the exhaust sans cat cons of course, we are discussing performance here. Stock ports are for stock type drivers.Modified ports will often give a slight decrease in low RPM torque, as it is traded off for top end power. Hope this helps, as it has been a 12 hr day and my thoughts are beginning to get a bit fuzzy. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2001 |
Regarding the headflow on the QV, how much does a 3.0L engine require? Im sure the heads have some meat left on them for hogging out but will the engine take advantage of the extra potential. It will only use what it needs. The higher the air velocity in the intake ports, the better the throttle response which means porting them can reduce this air speed. If the engine already turns to 7500rpm, what is the need for port changes requiring 40 hrs of labour? What size throttle body is going to be used to provide all the extra airflow the heads now take in? What sort of airbox/plumbing changes are being made upstream of the the plenum as well? After all this money is spent on the heads and its all back together, in retrospect, would it not have made more sense to make compression and cam changes first? This would provide more power accross the entire band whereas the head work will most likely only increase upper power potential provided the stock cams allow the air to enter the larger, nicer ports through the small throttle body in the first place. I realize cam timing affects cylinder pressure marginally but not compression ratio. Changing cam phasing such as advancing them will increase torque but hurt upper rpm. A cam change would be needed to change seat timing and provide mid and upper power as well. Still a compromise but better than phasing.(variable timing would be nice)I know it gets technical regarding cams and I have alot of experience in this area. I would like to hear some of these secrets that are going to turn a stock grind into something magical. | ||
| Nick Scianna (Nick)
New member Username: Nick Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrari 308 QV heads done correctly are worth a honest 40 -50 HP if you know what you are doing.The power is all relevant on the labor time the client wants spent on his heads,with respect to the factory porting there is allot more power to be had,lots more,when you start combining modifications such as cylinder head porting,port matching of all mating surfaces,multiangle valve grind,aggressively modifying the exhaust side of the ports,along with the intake runners,plenum box and taking the excellent head design to the next level,there are a few things that start to happen,here is just one of them.When the engine runs efficiently,it runs cooler,cooler engine,more power,you can crank up the advance to squeeze the extra HP. A 10 -15% increase in HP is quite common just by changing the LAME the advance curve that is pre set in OEM ignition boxes with a stock engine,let alone when you combine a free flowing exhaust system & the rest of the modifications discussed previously & give it some advance. 300 + HP numbers are quite realistic.Where the EXTRA PONIES are is in the cam timing.REMEMBER CAM TIMING EFFECTS COMPRESSION!This is where it starts to get very technical.There are many TRICKS to improve the performance of the Ferrari 3 liter 4 valve engine,some of us can squeeze more power out of them than others.When you own 3 of them and drive at least one of them everyday and work with a very small dedicated team,I guess it helps.Our continuing development in the 3 liter & 3.2 liter engines will continue to help all Ferrari owners and keep the passion alive,with new products & innovations for these engines.Nick Scianna. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I'm not sure as of yet what the heads will cost. Nick charges about $65 an hour and it takes 40 hours, a little more for the plenum and intakes. Since I have bought a lot of stuff from him in the past and it's the off season, he'll cut me some sort of a break. The stock ignition uses a digiplex box (I think) with a Bosch K-Jetronic FI system. It runs a rotor at the end of one (intake) of the cams on each bank. It advances accordingly off of RPM I assume that is coming off the rotor. It's not that it's all that bad, it's just drastically retarded to pass emissions. This means that throttle response is very slow, HP is a lot lower, and the car is gonna run significantly hotter. All of these are generally things that I'd try to get away from in the Fcar. I would say the ignition, K&N, test pipe, and krank vent together should be good for 30-40HP. The head work should be good for the 40HP. I would say these numbers are very well on the safe side. Considering Nick's experience, if he says in the 320 range, I would take his word. Especially when I eventually switch exhausts it'll be up there. There's quite a bit of work being done here and they all feed on each other. For example: the EI might be good for 15HP on a stock engine, but on a car with head work, freer flowing exhaust, and tweaked fuel settings it would obviously good for a bit more. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
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Hi BretM, I was wondering what the head porting is costing you (if you dont mind). What ignition does the QV have from the factory? Are you going with the distributorless ignition and is that responsible for a 40-50 hp gain alone? + the head work? I would be interested in seeing dyno numbers because I didnt think the factory ignition was that bad. Do they offer dyno numbers on their products before and after the mods as proof before you purchase a component? Not to be insulting, Im just skeptical about the high hp gains from the ignition system and wondered how nick is arriving at 320hp. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I just got it on DVD the other day cause I keep on watching it on TV and need it for good. He's so classy. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
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Billy Madison is a Great movie. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Check out http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com It's weird to think that I'll be back working on this stuff this weekend (I wont have set eyes on la bella Ferrari for two weeks by then). On a personal note, I would advise everyone to watch the movie Billy Madison. Stay here, stay here as long as you can. Drinking and girls may be fun, but they're no Fcar. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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A stock 84/85 US QV is 235HP (83 is 230HP). The motor will remain stock (pistons, cams, etc. I don't want to change from the stock bore and stroke, and/or stress the engine more than it is now. The mods I will do though are the heads (obviously), K&N filter (in already), krank vent system, test pipe, remove air injection system, and it looks like electronic ignition at this point too. The little things I guess add up to a noticeable HP, but the big things you can get a feel for actual numbers. I would expect with the heads done to be about +40HP and another +40-50 with the electronic ignition. I'm sure I'll talk with Nick (and Paul definitely) about setting it all up to get the most out of it when the times comes. | ||
| John Cortina (Johncort)
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Nick, Can you comment further on the HP gains you can achieve with head work and intake plenuim work?? What is the stock HP rating of a US 308 QV? Will the rest of the motor remain stock?? What about exhaust and ignition changes required...320+ is pretty impressive, thanks. John. | ||
| Nick Scianna (Nick)
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Hey!Bret that is one SERIOUS BOX for your heads that you sent us!Wonderful Job,my complements!I was also impressed at the time you took with respect to cleaning etc.It looks like you will be part of the 320 & over HP club.Congrats! Nick Scianna.. | ||
| Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
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Here's a shot of the K&N and UFI from my 308 held up to a light. You can see the difference pretty clearly. In my opinion the K&N will filter out everything it needs to.  | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Thanks Jeff and Kermit. In non-Ferrari applications (example: Fitted on a Weber DCOE), what about oiled, foam air-filters, like ITG and Pipercross? Any experience with these? Again, compared to K&N? | ||
| Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
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Peter, In my "earn a paycheck" life I'm an engineer working for a company designing and building filters. In looking at the K&N design, the filter media weave is a lot more open than the other mfgs designs. This is what allows the much higher airflow at a given pressure drop. This open weave will definately not provide the same level of filtration (ie.. particle size capture)as the tight weave, but it is offset some by the oil which will capture any particles that impact the strands in the weave. In general, the tighter the pleats are packed together, and the tighter the weave of the material, the finer the filtration rating. The K&N design is open in both of these parameters. But, and here's the thing about the K&N filters, think about what you're trying to filter out and what level of filtration you need. Very small particles in the micron range such as smoke will pass right through the engine and do not really need to be filtered out. Large chunks such as stones and sand will probably not make it to the filter anyways. What you really care about are bugs, leaves, those little dandelion things, etc.. that can plug the carb nozzles and injectors. For that stuff the oiled K&N is ideal. So why accept reduced airflow for a filtration level that really isn't needed? I use K&N on my GTB. | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
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Peter, my experience with K&N elements goes back years on and off road. This was however the first chance that I had to compare flows. I had always had a "seat of the pants" knowledge that they improved power. They use a different approach to removing particulates than stock styles.By the use of thier oils "wicking" action to attract and retain matter, as opposed to element opening size, as done in most all others, they allow more air to pass. I have never seen a reason to test with or without filter. I felt the superior cleaning action of the K&N as well as it's flow improvement gave me the best performance without endangering the motor. No doubt there would be an increase in flow without any element, provided that the transition into the plenium or carbs was smooth. Velocity stacks are an excellent example of this. Stacks will not only allow some tuneability as far as torque goes, but most importantly they smooth the air flow. Hope this info sheds some light on the topic. Kermit | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Kermit, how well does the K&N filter out particles and debris compared to stock or Baldwin (PA2094 air filter)? How about flow with and without any filter? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Thanks. That sounds like a good approach. Eventually I'll get an electronic ignition and that exhaust that Nick mentioned once when I talked to him a couple months ago sounded good (something you guys were developing with almost no restriction). I think that will be the extent of my mods regarding the engine at least. | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
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Happy Birthday Bret! As far as your QV goes, thatnks for the info. I will proceed with these parameters in mind, as well as the assumption that eventually a performance exhaust will be installed. The flow of the stock system is as horrid as it has to be to get past the Feds, (Enzo musta shed a tear on that one). I would wholehearterdly encourage the addition of a better ignition system as soon as possible. As I have been the one behind the design of parts to allow the use of the Electromotive on 308's, I can tell you how comparitively horrid the stock system is . We still have not found the limit of advance that our test car (Enzo) will take. Bear in mind that up here in the NW we have ambient air conditions (moist and cool) that allow advance far and above what would be advisable in a warmer, drier climate. To simplify it to the most basic level, the name of the game is to push (with combustion) as hard as possible on the piston as soon as it is over TDC. Kinda like pedaling a bike, the later you push after TDC, the slower your speed. Hence the need for ignition advance (light the fire early) The improvement is stunning. Glad to be of service. If you have any more input, please feel free, I'll help as much as I can. OH Yeah, on the Forza site you will see a pic of me testing a 308 air filter element on my flowbench.I proved that the K&N filter is good for about 40% more air. A dedicated Builder will go to these lengths to achieve true performance. We are not "off the shelf" kinda people. We know what really makes power, we test! Damn Proud to be a "Gearhead", Kermit | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
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Thanks Bret, it sounds like I am making a clutch job out to be more than what it is. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I didn't take any when taking it apart. I'll have my dad take some and then I'll post them (I'm back at school). It was a pretty simple procedure to get it off. Getting it back on will be a little more work, but not a big deal. I'll put up a description of what I did when I post the pics. Yeah, 19 now, last year of being a teenager. I'll have to work on man-whoring myself as much possible before I hit 20. I love working on the Ferrari, I think it's somewhat theraputic to be honest (although the cursing coming from the shop might make passerbys think otherwise). I can't understand how they can charge so much to replace the clutch on a 308, it's so easy, even with the engine in the car there isn't much to it really. Fortunately my clutch seems to be brand new stil(replaced 2 years ago). | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Happy Birthday Bret (19 now?). | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
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Bret, please take some photos of the clutch and let me know some of the tricks to it. Happy Bday. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I have to say I'm impressed Ric. Nice work. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Hey Kermit, I remember who you are, I've bought a good deal of stuff from Nick so I look at his site a lot and all (hot rodded Harley and you're name's on that pic of the heads). As far as the heads, my car is all stock to this point other than a K&N air filter. When I put it back together I'm gonna put in the test pipe and krank vent system that I got awhile ago. I'm seriously considering going with an electronic ignition. I would like to get in and take a look at the clutch (probably get that stuff apart today as I came home this weekend for my bday and to work on the Fcar), just to get an idea of what parts I'm gonna need to buy. If I don't need to replace that much stuff than I'll go with the ignition, if not I'll wait a little while. What other mods would effect the porting process? | ||
| Peter Connolly (Mondial_32_Aus)
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Bret, The bar has been lifted, check out how clean and stunning Ric Rainbolt's engine rebuilds look. http://www.rainbolt.com/ferrari/21Jan02/ Stunning work! PC | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
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Bret, Sorry for the "cryptic" nature of my last post. Allow me to fill you in.... I am the Builder that does the headwork as well as much of the product design for the Forza. My post was short, as I'm sure you can imagine how busy my schedule is. As I personally taylor each client's heads to their intended use, any input you can give me will result in a better final result. The "art" of porting is like anything else that is done in that all must work in harmony to produce the best results. Example: Full out Race heads do not work well with the rest of the motor being stock, just as stock(unported) heads do not belong on a race only Ferrari. Ride It Like It's Hot, Kermit | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Magoo, that "white silicone" is Hylomar on the Ferrari engines. With the way workman's compensation boards go about these things, everything is automated for the drivers: electric dock-lifts behind the truck, dollies, carts, etc... I wouldn't worry about damage. Its small packages I always worry about (light enough to throw and then go SMASH as it flies off the conveyer belt...  ). Bret, that some heavy construction. "When in doubt, build it stout, with materials you know about"  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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The heads, plenum, and intakes are close to 100lbs. Compared to them the box doesn't weigh that much. It wound up being $120 UPS ground to Seattle so that seems good to me. I shipped it already so I guess checking FedEx isn't worth it anymore, thanks though. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
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It should be safe in the crate though. It looks very well packed. How much does it weigh? Fedex ground is a good choice. I have had many problems with UPS and Fedex Ground is cheaper too. | ||
| Peter Connolly (Mondial_32_Aus)
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Bret, nice box but won't it potentially be too heavy? My experience with shipping is that the drivers get the shits bigtime when the box is too heavy and treat the box with little or no respect if they personally have to handle it. Be sure that your shipping company loves heavy boxes like that one! PC | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
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I like Loctite 518 too. It used to be 515 but now I think you can only get 518. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Brian, your suggestion about the leaks on milled services sounds like a good one. However the factory,Ferrari, uses a white silicone between the milled surfaces. Got to say they do leak at times. Maybe your way is the best way. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
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Bret,I and many,high revving, high hp,guys and Ferrari mechanics highly recommend three-bond 800-959-7757 well worth it... | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
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nice, you could probably sell similar ones like the polo shirts | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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There's no sense in doing all this work and then not shipping it right, so here's the box to be shipped. My dad made it after I left (I'm at school now) and I guess he'll send it tomorrow.   | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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I've been very satisfied using Loctite 518 on the various gasketless joints: http://www.loctite.com/catalog/product.html?ProductLine=518+++++++++++++++++ (you have to cut/paste the link above -- the "+" symbols don't seem to work right if you just pick it directly) It's more difficult for disassembly, but, for something on a road car that you'd like to be leak-free for a decade or 2, I think it's a better choice than the non-hardening Hylomar: http://www.igscorp.com/hylomar.htm (which, of course, is probably the better choice for things requiring frequent disassembly) JMHOs, but like Brian said, the tricky thing is not using too much of whatever you use as the volume to be filled by the sealer is really quite small. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Wow, you guys know your stuff. The idiot that last serviced it used silicone sealer all over the place, including where the block meets the oil pan (what you guys are talking about) which is why it leaks like a seive now. | ||
| Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
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Brian,Am I understanding you right: better not to use silicon sealer in the critical joints between 2 milled surfaces? Whats the problem, the sealant squeezes out and leaves a leak path? Maybe thats why F engines leaks. At least on mine I can see a thin bead of the white silicon at the block joints. | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
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Between two milled surfaces the need for sealant is minimal, Hylomar is a very effective sealant or any of the Loctite anaerobics. Put a very thin layer between the mating faces, I use a thinner and apply with a small roller. porsche do this between the engine case halves and have no problem, however people try ths silicone type seqaler and boy do they leak! | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Is it the whole lower case and the engine block Bret? There is no gasket used there, the two are just precision-machined and have a hylomar sealant in addition (which isn't very stout stuff, kinda thin). And I still haven't answered your email either Magoo! Ha Ha!! (I will, I got a pretty good scoop) | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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No, Bret, As Peter says you must be using AOL as your server. The nerve of the guy especially after I sent him 2 Rolexs. It looks like you are well on your way to getting the heads done. Best of Luck, Magoo | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
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Very Nice! Your attention to cleanliness is commendable.Quality work. I look forward to "waking" them up Kermit | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Interesting. If you cancel a post in the upload section it still posts, just without the picture. Good to know in the future. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Here's the crate my dad made after I left for school. He's the man. He made a unibody crate, that according to him and my grandfather will fray before it breaks (apparently it's pretty much unbreakable, reminescent of people preaching about the Titanic...).  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Here's the crate my dad made after I left for school. He's the man. He made a unibody crate, that according to him and my grandfather will fray before it breaks (apparently it's pretty much unbreakable, reminescent of people preaching about the Titanic...).  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Here's the crate my dad made after I left for school. He's the man. He made a unibody crate, that according to him and my grandfather will fray before it breaks (apparently it's pretty much unbreakable, reminescent of people preaching about the Titanic...). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I could see where it was coming out before I degreased it. Then just sitting on the bench it leaked out a little (left it damp under the edge of where the block and oil pan bolt up). It's leaking pretty good now, which is surprising because it wasn't leaking at all really a year and a half ago. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Are you sure it isn't the shift-linkage seal itself? It could also be the return line from the air/oil separator... Frayed hose or loose connection. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I have a leak where the block bolts down to the oil pan (almost directly over where the shift linkage comes in the engine, on the front side of the engine). In order to get the block off I'm gonna have to remove the whole clutch housing and then the cover on the other side of the engine. I'm not sure what internals are involved with all of this though. I wish it wasn't leaking down there. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Bret, are you getting leaks from the front-end of the motor? (hard to tell now as you've washed all the oil away in these pics). The front crank seal and cam drive pulley seals? You'll have fun with the ring-nuts and if the bearings are shot too, more fun removing /installing! Watch for the little O-Ring on one of the case studs below the oil-pump when splitting. If you've had good compression/leak-down readings, don't touch the bottom-end!! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I think all those little 10mm nut size studs are 8 ft lbs. I have no idea about the head nuts (Nick knows and I'm gonna talk to him tomorrow, it wont be a long time til I need them). | ||
| charles claussen (Atlantaman)
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Do you know the correct torque for the head nuts? I understand that the valve cover should be 8 ft-lb Charles | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I tapped with a mallet a little and then got real thin wooden wedges under and it started coming off. I just worked to larger and larger wedges until it was completely off. Peter, I'm afraid that I'm gonna get into a major rebuild like you. I can tell that it was leaking pretty well right under the block so that's gotta be pulled. I guess I might as well get it all good now rather than wait until it's back in the car and have it leak again. I'm gonna spend some major time on the car and do everything, absolutely everything. Damn there's a lot of work ahead of me. Damn, tomorrow morning I gotta make a crate for shipping the stuff and then I gotta drive back up to school I guess in the afternoon. This sucks cause now I'm not gonna be able to work on the engine as much. My friends from home are pretty much all back at school though so I guess it wont be bad to go back. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Richelson, look at Bret's second photo (rear view of the engine assembly). The right-hand rear engine mount on the bottom, in front of it is a dark-grey circular cover. It is the transmission oil-pump and the speedo sender is located underneath it. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
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Bret or Peter, is that the speedometer sending unit on the transmission up there by the clutch? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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It does look a little too rich. I had less build-up on mine and my car is carb'ed. Looks great Bret! So how easily did they pop off the block? Just a light tapping with a mallet, or more force than that? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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It took all day and a trip to Sears (15mm wrenches) but the heads eventually came off. The coolant yoke, that thing that bolts to the head on the destra bank was seized on and wound up taking like an hour to get off. The car was definitely running rich. This why I'm glad to be doing this, finally get everything set up how it should be and not wonder about what others have done before. Other than the carbon buildup everything looks pretty good. It's snowing outside which is sweet. After dinner go do some donuts in the jeep sounds good. The pistons are larger than I thought they would be. The engine really isn't that much larger than a small block, it just has those big heads on it.   It's nice to have them finally off, now I just need to build a crate for them to be shipped in.   |