| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
New member Username: Me_k Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2002 |
Now you just need to add this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1835552781 | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 649 Registered: 1-2001 |
Greg - Having met them before (altho I'm sorry to say not Stewart), Nick is the fuzzy Italian, and Kermit is the one in the hat. HTH ;) -Ben P.S. Stewart Chung - so how does it compare to what it was like before? | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 343 Registered: 3-2001 |
Who is in the picture with you? Who is who? | ||
| Stewart Chung (Navygakman)
New member Username: Navygakman Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2002 |
I also have to boast that my shitbox 308 now also has a Kermit "signature" rebuilt motor!! Heads port and polished; new 11:1 pistons; direct fire ignition; crank vents a la scianna....the whole nine yard. :-) Here is a picture of the team. (ah...I am the one in middle... ;-)  | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
New member Username: Kermit Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ric, To the best of my knowledge ceramics are used as heat shields. In this application they obviously knew underhood temperatures were high enough to transfer thru the runners, and add heat to the incoming charge. Interesting thought string. Hey, anyone out there tried having 308 runners ceramic coated?. As far as the shape, what you get is what you got. I'd hate to think how many expensive carbide cutters it would burn up, trying to port after the Ceramic is added. Ceramic is commonly used in machine shop tooling, so you can imagine how hard it is. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 126 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey, Kermit... I know in the later Ferraris, and specifically to my knowledge, the F40, the plenum and intake runners are coated (ceramic, I think). Is this a good idea to improve the flow. Can then the necessary turbulance be generated in the last 2 or 3 inches? Just curious. (Future F40 owner :-) | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
New member Username: Kermit Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bill 308, As far as your questions, I'll try to answer them as best I can. First off The port openings are done with a pattern, and that is about all is done with a template. The rest is done based on knowledge gained over the years. Having my own Flowbench has a direct benefit as far as developement goes. Weeks of time on this will give a person two things. Knowledge. And an insight to flow patterns. A tremendous amount of time spent here is part of the "edge". As far as the balance of your questions, I can sum it up by saying aiming the flow is as important as flow CFM numbers. It is all a trade off. Large CFM #'s may contribute to top end power, but low RPM will suffer. The goal in any case is to go for the most "Tumble and swirl". By encouraging a tumbling action as the mixture enters the cylender, combustion is improved greatly. As the piston rises, the mixture is still swirling, when the spark ignites this moving mass, the flame spreads much more quickly than stock. In making power, the goal is to push as hard as possible on the piston top, as soon as it goes over TDC. Kinda like pedaling a bike, if one doesn't start pushing hard till later, you are gonna be slower. Velocity is extremely important! Just "hogging" the ports out will usually result in a package nobody likes. Bear in mind too that it all has to work together in harmony. Race cams and stock ports do not belong together any more than race ports and stock cams. This is why I do each set to the customers intended use. Low and midrange are important in everyday driving. A well thought out package will always out produce the rest. As far as flow restrictions on 2V and 4V, each has there own quirks. Ferrari heads are roughly ported at the Scuderia, but they cannot spend the kind of time it takes to get the most. Not every driver wants it all, so why drive the cost up. I find the 4V castings to be of better quality, with far less casting porosity. I hope this helps, as short as it is. We could spend weeks on this topic. Kermit | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 324 Registered: 1-2001 |
My Mondial has a set of heads which went through Kermits hands. What I like most is that the car has lots of torque starting at 1,000 rpm. Last time I had the car at the dealership in Vancouver the technical manager said: "Wow, what a quick car, what did you do to it?" And this from a guy who usually drives 360's around. Thanks Matt | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
New member Username: Rrm Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2002 |
Brett, Weisco is a very good company I wasn't aware they dealt with automotive engines I am familar with them with motorcycles and snowmobiles, you would do well to go with them. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Junior Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 248 Registered: 5-2001 |
Matthew, I wounder if you'd be willing to give us a little insight into how you port 308 heads. Aside from matching the mating surfaces and smoothing any obvious irregularities, how do you control and shape the flow area? Have you developed special templates, representing target flow areas, at strategic locations in the bore? Are there any obvious flow restrictions in either the 2- or 4-valve heads that require special treatment? If you just go for maximum flow area, this might work at high rpm, but low rpm torque would likely suffer. One school of thought is to gradually increase the flow velocity (larger bore to smaller bore), until just before the valve seat pocket, then slow the velocity (slightly larger bore) just before it crosses the seat area. Some folks feel this strategy yields more useful torque over the full rpm range. What's your philosophy? | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
New member Username: Kermit Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bill 308, Yes, I am the one who does the porting for the Forza. With decades of success as a Master Builder, setting records in a diverse cross section of racing, I bring to the team literally decades of experience in this area. Paul, I am very much looking forward to your set. As a gesture of respect for your being a longstanding customer, You will be getting the second in the Signature Series. These are the finest, and are truly a work of art. And yes I have been Sculpting in metal for years. Thank You all for your compliments. Kermit | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 353 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hey Kermit and Brett, My Heads are about to ship to Nick (Monday) for the famous Kermit do over, new valves, springs, seals and guides as well as cams and 11:1 pistons. Replacing Fuel injection (Quatro Valve) with 4 Webbers (48mm IDF's). looking for 375 HP ++. | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
New member Username: Kermit Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2001 |
To your Question Bill 308, Yes, I am the one who does all of the headwork for the Forza, as well as engines of course. Kermit | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
New member Username: Me_k Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Bret, It sounds like your getting to some important decisions. From my experience taking your time to be sure everything in the engine matched properly will pay big dividends in performance. There are some decent software packages that can help you get it right the first time, or maybe Nick can suggest something. Cams, heads, compression, intake system flow, exhaust system flow all need to match to get a broad usable power curve and work on pump gas. Changing parts one at a time usually gives you a lot of engines that aren�t everything you�re hoping for. It�s much easier to make a good engine worse than better. If a combination is recommended to you and they don�t have dyno numbers or track data for it, it�s an opinion, not a fact. Good luck! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2657 Registered: 2-2001 |
I almost forgot, yeah I am into the piston idea, going with Weisco like you did. They were the only company that when I called were polite, answered all my questions, no attitude, just really cool guys. They have a minimum order of 12 pistons as they don't have any billets made up for the 4 valves, but their 12 comes in about $100 less than other places 8 piston orders. So I will have 4 expensive paper weights, or spares for when I burn up a piston. I'm looking at 10.6:1, although I might go 11:1. On a more interesting note, tomorrow I have to pull apart the block and get one of the pistons out in order to send it to Weisco for them to use to get specs for the set to be made up. Since the nikasil liners of the QVs can't be ground, and my sinistra bank was at some point (PO I assume overreving) kissed by all 4 valves leaving marks (luckily no real damage) where all the valves are above the piston, we decided this was the way to go. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2656 Registered: 2-2001 |
I was just "playing" with them to get the head cc Kermit, they are nice, there is no denying that. Since I'm not gonna do cams I'm just gonna seal them up now and let them wait until the engine is ready for them. I was talking to one of the guys at Elgin yesterday and they said that there are two cams, one is a .324 lift the other a .320, or something along these lines (I'm just gonna use these numbers for the rest of the schpeel here as I think they are what he said). He said the larger one (.324) can have quite a bit done to it. The smaller lift one for the most part cannot. The only differences I can think of in lift that I know of is that the QVs have slightly less than the two valves if I remember correctly. I'm assuming this means the QVs have the lower ones that the guy was referring to. If this is the case then not much can be done to increase their performance, I assume because of piston clearances or cam clearances, although I'm not sure. I'm sure there could be work done to make a more aggressive setup even with the .320 cams which I think I have, but I don't want to get into dry building engines and stuff like that. He said if you have the higher lift cams (I think you have them Paul so it would be worth it) then you have to use either longer valves or larger backlash caps (?, I'm assuming the spacer that sits on top of the valve between the valve and the shims) in order for it to work. The point of my rambling is that in my case it doesn't seem to be worth it to get the cams reground, but for you two valves guys it seems quite a bit can be done. I think I will eventually try Mark's setup down the road (still can't get over how wicked that supercharged engine sounded). Damn, I can't wait to get the thing all back together. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 195 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bill, Im running 10.8:1 weisco 3 ring forged pistons. Std bore, my liners were like new. I plan on reground cams from elgin possibly this winter to get the most out of the combo. The heads are also ported and the runners matched. I will be rejetting my carbs soon - larger mains to feed the fire. The pistons are also 100 grams lighter than stock. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
New member Username: Me_k Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2002 |
Everything look great! As far as euro cams on a QV, according to the specs in the workshop manual, the only difference is the timing of the exhaust cam. When I put my engine together, I just used the euro timing numbers. On the dyno my torque peaks at 5100, HP at 6900, so except the the 100 rpm shift, which could be from other things, it seems to work well. I got the broader euro spread between the torque and HP peaks. Good luck with the rest of the project. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Junior Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2001 |
Matthew, Did you do the work on Bret's heads? | ||
| Matthew J. Morgan (Kermit)
New member Username: Kermit Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am happy that you like them. I do each set as though they are for my OWN.No shortcuts, no copping out for rest. The final result is what really counts. Not everyone is like that I'm sure. But to me, it is the Passion for the Ferrari that counts. You will be very happy with the results I am sure. Best of luck. Please post when It comes back to life. Kermit | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Junior Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 245 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul, What compression ratio pistons did you install? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Junior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 192 Registered: 12-2001 |
It all looks nice Bret, I guess you are going with the pistons after all. Im happy with the set I bought. No overheating or oil consumption problems. I have nothing to compare my car to for power gains but it does pull well and rev out nice. I hope to drive another carb 308 to see. Good luck on the rebuild. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2654 Registered: 2-2001 |
I got the heads back yesterday from Nick and they came out really nice. The pics don't really do them justice to be honest. Everything is glass smooth in the runners, heads, and plenum (all used to be no porous, but kind of coarse). All the gaskets are matched up to the ports. New valve springs, guides, seats, and the valves adjusted. It's cool as hell. Seeing them in person is wild when you remember what they were to what they are now. So here are some pics: runner repainted:  runner ports:  plenum repainted:  plenum ports:  intake ports:  exhaust ports:  lifters adjusted:  valves:  valves whole head:  So, now it is time to get to work on pistons and someday maybe get all of this back together. I don't think I'm going to get into cams just quite yet, it is tempting so maybe someday swap to euro specs or something comparable, but as of now it looks like just using the stock ones are the way to go. I've been doing a ton of stuff lately, once the piston order inline I'm gonna start on the electrical system/removing the PO's alarm. |