| Author | Message | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 102 Registered: 4-2002 |
Glad you got it all sealed up. I have used 20w-50 in my 328 Ferrari for 14 years. It seems happy with it. Mine is almost finished now. All I lack is a water pump hose (wrong one shipped) and the dipstick mess. Surgery and a torch to reconnect are probably needed | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 162 Registered: 5-2001 |
LOOKS LIKE MY POST #161 WAS DUE TO A (VERY) HOT DAY My shake-down run was made in the middle of a very hot (98 degrees) day. Probably the hottest weather I've ever driven the car in since I bought it 3 years ago. While the car idled rough when it started, I only noticed the cam/valve noise after I got back from the ride & the engine was good & hot. Probably the warmest I've ever had the car since I also had the A/C on. When I started the car yesterday to pull it into the garage, it was much cooler (~85 degrees) out, & the cam/valves sounded like they always have. This evening, I set the engine on the TDC(PM1-4) mark & checked the cam marks against the metal pointers on the fibreglass backs of the cam belt covers. Everything looks dead-on, except for the rear bank exhaust cam mark which I'm uncertain of. I just can't get a good straight-on look at the pointer down thru the slot at the top of the belt cover. I'm pretty sure it's right since it was the last cam I set up & I rotated the engine 4 more times before making my final checks. All my marks were spot on. Today it's 75 degrees out. I just started the engine up & the cams/valves were even quieter than they were yesterday. CONCLUSION: My Oil really thinned out when thoroughly hot & let cams/valves get noisey. I did notice that the idle oil pressure was noticably lower than usual, but it came up to normal when then engine was at 3K-4K RPM, so I didn't think too much about it. I'm running Castrol Syntech 5W-50. I think I'm going to call Castrol and ask them if it thins out more under heat than their 20W-50 Syntech. If that's the case, I may switch to 20W-50. IDLE SPEED ADJ SMOOTHED OUT IRREGULARITY The idle was still irregular and slow (~750 RPM). I let the engine warm up & the idle speed remained low, so I adjusted it up to 1000 RPM. The idle irregularity pretty much smoothed out as the speed came up. At this point, I'm sorry I got overly worried & troubled the chat with what seems to be normal very hot weather behavior. We New Englanders so seldom see 90+ degree weather that we just tend to forget how dramaticly it can heat an engine up. I should have known, during the shake-down run we passed 3 cars w/their hoods up & clouds of steam billowing out. My wife even remarked on how seldom you see an overheated car around here. On the plus side, It looks like the cam covers are sealed down & the cam seals are doing their job. ie: No sign of oil coming from the entire cam area!! | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2002 |
My 328 cams and valves have always made noise. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 161 Registered: 5-2001 |
GOOD NEWS: IT DOESN'T LEAK BAD NEWS: IT'S NOISEY/IDLES ROUGH I woke up at 02:30 AM with the cam/valve noise bothering me & can't go back to sleep, so I thought I'd post this update. Last Friday I buttoned everything up, took a deep breath & started the engine for the 1st time since I started the timing bearing replacement project back in May. The idle was irregular, & there was a noticable amount of noise from the cams/valves. Once the engine was revved slightly, it sounded fine & ran smoothly. Drove it a couple of blocks, & the engine had quite a bit more pull than I remembered. I haven't had a chance to check into the noise/rough idle as we were In Newport, RI on vacation Saturday thru yesterday(Wed.). Today, I decided that running on last October's gas couldn't be helping the idle any. Since there was only ~1/8 tank of the old gas, I filled it the rest of the way w/fresh gas & drove 20 mi. round-trip for a shake-down run. Dam, but it's fun to drive this car!!! It really does seem to be noticably peppier... Got back late this evening. The idle is somewhat smoother, but the cams/valves are still noisey. Good news is that, based on a quick look, there's no oil leaking. I hope this time I've finally got sealing the cam covers figgured out. CAM MISS-ALIGNMENT??? All I can think of is that somehow I ended up with the cams improperly aligned. Since I've replaced the front bank belt a couple of times before & didn't have cam alignment problems, I'm puzzled how I could have gotten it wrong this time. I guess the other possibility is that ignition timing is off, but I don't see how that would have changed. BACK TO THE LIFT... Tomorrow AM I'll pull the car onto the lift & check the ignition timing & rough cam alighment marks on the belt covers against the cams. DISCOURAGED... At this point I'm more than a tad bummed out, especially with the prospect of pulling the now non-leaking cam covers again if it turns out to be cam alignment. I really want to drive this car, not spend all summer working on it just to store it for another NE winter... Probably shouldn't have written this, but I feel better now that I have roughed out a plan of action. Maybe now I can go back to sleep. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2001 |
TIP: It's very hard to get the tube into place to put the dab of RTV into the o-ring-head/cover joints. Especially the joint that's jammed up against the fuel injection unit & it's counterpart that's up against the firewall. Instead, Just put 2 smaller dabs on the top & bottom of the gasket end that seals the joint. Slip the gasket into place, & use a screwdriver to press the gasket end down. Just make sure that the RTV on the gasket overlaps the RTV you applied to the rest of the flange. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2001 |
Larry, The hole is down between the head & the aluminum 'ring' that holds the o-ring. You have to pull the cam & the aluminum 'ring' that holds the o-ring & cam seal to get at it. In the photo I posted earlier in this thread, the hole looks like a dirt spot on the vertical part of the head casting below the cam bearing area in the head. BORE HOLE OUT TO ~1/4" DIA? After I'd already got my cams in,re-timed & the belt covers on, I thought of enlargening the hole. WHY? There's got to be a lot of oil squirting into this area from the cam bearing. I can't see that a hole this small can keep it drained. I have to believe that the volume inside the aluminum ring fills with oil until it spills back over the lower edge of the casting web into the head. This means that while the engine is running, the cam seal has to retain a pool of oil, not just deal with oil splashing onto the seal's lip!! Can anyone see a down-side to boreing these drain holes larger? PROGRESS UPDATE: I installed my rear cam cover yesterday. Used a small bead of RTV on the head flange, then pressed the gasket into it w/my fingers (nitrile or vinyl gloves recommended). In the o-ring joints I worked from the nearby stud toward the joint, thus forcing any excess RTV to flow toward the joint. The RTV nicely flowed into the joint & formed a dab. I used a screwdriver to restore the gasket end into position. When pressing out the bead on top of the gasket, Murphy struck. The RTV clogged the tube's nozzle & the tube burst. Left me with a big glovefull of RTV & a useless tube. I quickly used my finger to spread a film of RTV on top of the rest of the gasket. I then yanked the gloves off & installed the cam cover. Thank goodness I had gloves on as the RTV would have set up while I was trying to get my hands clean enough to handle the cam cover. I ended up with about a 1/8" bead of RTV extruded around the perimeter of the cam cover. Once it cures I can trim it off. I'd already put a film of oil in the cover's o-ring groove, except for about the last 1/4" from the end of the groove where the RTV needs to seal it. When I placed the cam cover into place & pressed it down by hand, I could feel the o-ring slipping into it's groove & compressing. I also had to poke one gasket end back into place because the RTV had extruded it away from the o-ring. I tightened the cover nuts in three stages, first finger tight starting with the ones by the o-rings . Then I again started at the o-rings & tightened them with a wrench. Finally I came back to the nuts by the o-rings, discovered they'd loostened (presumably by the o-rings sliding further into the head part of the groove & compressing there. I'm convinced that the film of oil on the o-ring is critical to getting it to slide into final place & compress w/o bulging into the head-cover seam & getting pinched. With any luck I'll get the other cam cover, alternator, & a/c compressor installed tonite. Maybe I'll be able to drive it to work tomorrow AM!!! | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 74 Registered: 4-2002 |
Here is a photo of my o-ring. Don't see a drain hole.  | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2001 |
(No questions, just a progress update & some tech tips on cam alignment). CAM ALIGNMENT TIPs: - 15/64 drill bits (0r drill rod) are the same dianeter as the cam pins. I taped the cutting end of a pair of drill bits & used them as temporary pins while doing trial alignments. They're a lot easier to slip in & out of the holes. - Put a couple of drops of oil in the pulley center hole & smear a little into the pin holes. Again, it makes shifting the pulley & trial pinning a lot easier. (The usual statement about keeping oil away from the belt still applies of course.) - I made a pointer out of sheet steel & mounted it using the alternator bracket holes. Then put a paint dot on the damper pulley at the PM1-4 mark. Once I had the engine on PM1-4, I bent the pointer just enough to align it exactly with the paint dot. After that I could tell when I had the engine within 1/2 a flywheel tooth or closer to PM1-4. Saved a lot of hopping up & down. I only had to get up & screwdriver the flywheel that last 1/2 tooth when I was making the final hole selection for pinning the pulley. -It definitely pays to rotate the engine around 4 times (twice past PM1-4) after you believe you have ALL 4 marks lined up. Twice I ended up with one of the cam marks at the edge of the cap mark after setting them up dead on & then rotating 4x around. - Mark down/photograph the original pinning pattern before dis-assembly. Use it that pattern as a starting point for re-assembly. There's a good chance that you'll either have the marks lined up, or else will be off by a belt tooth. Two of my cams ended up with their original pinning pattern. The other 2 were at the edge of the mark when I used the original. I believe that these last two had started out miss-aligned. MURPHY STRIKES TWICE: Thought I'd have my engine back together yesterday. but Murphy struck: About 1:30 pm I had 3 of the 4 cam marks lined up & was about 1 degree off on the rear bank exhaust cam. It took ONLY 3 hours to get to that point. I was hand cranking the engine the usual 2x around to get it to PM1-4 when the intake pulley on the front bank hopped off of the cam. What's worse, the pin came out & disappeared under my rollaway. After I'd put the bolt into the front bank exhaust cam, I went to lunch & forgot I handn't put the bolt into the intake cam(DUH). Took me about 30 min to find the @#$ pin, however, by then I was over the panic of realizing that the crank still 30 degrees or so away from PM1-4, and had the front belt off of the pulleys! I finally calmed down enough to compare the positions of the marks on all 4 cams. Luckily they were all at about the same angle, indicating they hadn't shifted noticably after the pulley came off. I decided to slip the belt & errant pulley on, match up a pair of holes, pin them & carefully move things to PM1-4. This isn't as risky as it sounds as the front bank has all 4 pistons in mid-stroke when at PM1-4, so there's almost 90 degrees of crank rotation before you have to worry about valve-piston interference. Turns out the the front intake cam was only 3 degrees or so off(whew). (Ask me if I remembered which holes i'd pinned to get the marks to line up.) 2 hours & many many motor hand rotations later I finally had all 4 cam marks all lined up. After aligning the cam marks, I took my torque wrenches & torqued (almost) everything in sight to spec. The almost is because Murphy struck again, at about 10 ft-lb one of the tensioner studs stripped out for no apparent reason. After a 1-hour round-trip to the nearest auto parts store for a 12x1.25 heli-coil kit, I clipped the belts to the pulleys with binder clips, pulled the tensioner & installed the heli-coil. Now everything's finally torqued down. Had to yank twice on the e-brake before I could get it to hold firm enough for me to torque the vibration damper bolt. Installed the belt covers & called it a day. I want to be fresh when I seal the cam covers. They're touchy enough w/o being hot tired & sweaty at the same time. Tomorrow AM Plans: I plan to put fresh oil & coolant in the engine & test run it for a while to make sure there are no leaks before I go thru the pain of installing the A/C compressor & alternator. Wish me luck. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2002 |
I can't see drain on my car. Only have cam cover off. Camera battery charging. Planned on installing the water pump this morning but was sent incorrect water hose for pump rear. Both were same length. One needs to be about an inch longer. Will seal up one valve cover tomorrow. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here's a photo of one of the drain holes:  Look straight down from the oil in the cam bearing area. It's in the 1st groove looking downwards. Sorry I couldn't get a little better photo. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'll look again this weekend. Will photograph if necessary since mine is open at the moment. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK, On my Euro 308 QV, they are down below the o-ring end of the cam cap w/the indexing mark. Each is drilled thru the casting web that is coming up to form the bottom 1/2 of the cam bearing. Look where you'd expect oil to collect as it comes out of the cam bearing end facing toward the cam pulley. If you've got a 2-valve 308, your engine may vary. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2002 |
Can't find the holes. Where are they located in relation to, say, the cam indexing mark? Thanks. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2001 |
CLEAN OUT DRAIN HOLES IN HEAD BEHIND THE O-RING GROOVE While re-installing my cam seal aluminum rings, I noticed that there's a small (less than 1/8" dia.) hole in the head behind the machined area for each of the o-ring grooves. They're there to drain oil out from behind the seal. Otherwise the seal would always be about half covered in oil. Which certainly was the case when I pulled my cams/seals out. Dumped a good 2 tablespoons or so of oil out of each of the aluminum rings. All 4 of my holes were filled up w/gunk. Cleaned them out w/a toothpick. I've never heard of them being mentioned before, & totally overlooked them in the past! | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'll get to them this weekend. Thanks for info. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 145 Registered: 2-2002 |
6 thou is probably too small to worry about. You should see what early TR valve covers do. Silicone RTV (my favorite is ThreeBond 1211) can easily make up the difference... that is, if there is any after the cover is tightened. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2002 |
I see I should not get my hopes up. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2002 |
The reddish area is where the 0.006 inch fall off is.  | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 857 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think most of the 80's v8s have a leaky front bank seal. It is just so hard to get right. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Junior Member Username: Verell Post Number: 139 Registered: 5-2001 |
Larry, I tend to concurr w/Sparky. 0.006 is not large enough to cause a problem. My cam cover is off by something like 0.010 - 0.015. SEALING THE O-RING GROOVE - CAM COVER/HEAD SEAM JOINT: The O-ring groove at the cam cover/head seam is a well known leak source. I've had LOTS of experience with leaks here. (Experience is what you get when things don't work out the way you thought they should.) Common causes are: - Gasket extends into bottom of o-ring groove, & either cuts the o-ring, or else keeps it from sealing. Causes: Untrimmed gasket extending into groove, or Improperly trimmed gasket swells w/oil & extends into groove. Remedy: Trim gasket to exactly align w/edges of the groove, & trim gasket back ~ 1/16" from bottom of groove. (My new gaskets from TRutlands have a round trim-back!). Then put a small dab ( ~3/16" sphere) of RTV at the joint to seal the trim-back at the bottom of the groove. - O-Ring pinched & cut by sharp corner of groove bottom - cam cover/head seam. Remedy: Take a small file & break the corner of the groove bottom slightly.(Ric Rainbolt, tnx for this tip.) Again, the dab of RTV will seal it. Also, put a couple of drops of oil into the groove in the heat, & give the o-ring a thin coat of oil to make sure it rotates freely as the ring holding it is slipped into the groove. You should be able to rotate the o-ring a little bit in the head half of it's groove after the cam caps are tightened. Be gentle, you don't want to stretch the o-ring, just verify that it isn't nicked & is lubricated enough to slip into final position when it's compressed by tightening the cam cover on. - Gasket end pushed away from the o-ring groove-cover/head seam joint so it can't seal the o-ring groove. Cause: Too large a dab of RTV at the joint, or something squeezed out of the o-ring groove (See next item). I'm currently replacing my rear belt because the #$@#%$ wrench jockey that did the 30K service as part of my 308's purchase made ALL of the above mistakes. I redid the front belt last year because of them too, plus he didn't replace the cam bolt O-rings & of course they leaked. - O-ring groove filled w'RTV or some other sealant so the o-ring can't shift enough to let the cam seals center themselves on the cam. My front o-ring groove acquired this problem after I took the car back due to what I eventually determined to be the cam bolt o-rings leaking. Unfortunately, It looked like a good Idea to me last year, so I repeated the error. I'm re-doing my front seals again because of it. Remedy: Nothing but a little oil in the groove, except for where the dab of RTV is unavoidably squeezed into the groove. This should take care of the o-ring groove - cover/head seam joint. SEALING THE HEAD-CAM COVER SEAM: Put about a 1/16" dia. bead of RTV down the middle of the gasket area of the head, routing it only on the inside of the studs. Place the gasket pieces on top of it, & partially smooth it out by rubbing the gasket w/your finger. Then put a similar bead on top of the gasket pieces, install the cam cover & bolt it down. (Ferrari, & many others just leave the RTV out & count on oil absorption to swell the gasket enough to ensure a good seal. Others spread the RTV on the gasket as a dressing, but it's too easy to scrape it off while installing the gasket. You could also spread it on the head before installing the gasket, then spread more on the gasket. I don't like to do this because it lets the RTV start cureing. Alternatively to RTV, you could clean the head & cam cover gasket areas w/ Loctite KleenNprime, then use a bead of Loctite 518 instead of RTV. 518 doesn't set up while it's exposed to air. When used on Aluminum, it also requires some metal ions which the KleenNprime supplies. CAUTION: When slipping the cam cover into place, make certain it doesn't pinch the o-ring.(ask me how I know this can happen.) I'll be installing my cam covers later today & haven't yet decided between 518 & Permatex Ultra Black RTV which is quite oil resistant. (So is Ultra Blue, but it looks like hell when it gets where it shouldn't be.) Dumb question/grouse: Why the !#$# couldn't Ferrari have just machined the cam seal groove into the head'cam cover. It wouldn't have been subject to pinching. The seal could probably have been pressed into place after the cover was bolted down. | ||
| Mark Foley (Sparky)
New member Username: Sparky Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2002 |
I an an ex-tool and die maker, I do not feel that .006 is enough to worry about--a head can have upto .003. The bolts would tend to pull that amount together and if not I would think the o-ring would seal that gap. You may want to try putting (sensor safe) silicon sealer on the whole valve cover. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2002 |
The front valve cover has been leaking slightly for years right where the cover touches the head inside of the O-ring. It drips onto the exhaust and smells and messes up the engine. I just returned from the inspection shop where they have a 3X5 foot granite table that is flat. We supported the cover on blocks at the spark plug outer holes then moved a dial indicator about both lengthwise sealing surfaces. The sealing surfaces along the long edges are good except where the vent is located. The vent is diagonally across from the low point where the cam drive pulleys are located where it leaks on the exhaust. The sealing surface drops off by 0.006 inch from the second bolt hole to the end (right by the vent). I am wondering if I'll be successful at sealing this thing. I could have metal removed at a machine shop but then I worry about squeezing the O-rings too much. What about torquing the bolts on the low side first and making sure it seals there. The side where it is short on metal is the high side so there would be less of a tendency to leak there. What do you think? Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated. |