| Author |
Message |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 101
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 11:35 pm: | |
The flange surface sounds good to me, and not worthy of concern...And yes, a light polishing with croucus cloth would be OK. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 94
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 10:01 pm: | |
David: You mentioned earlier to check the surface of the flange for grooves. There are no grooves and it is perfectly smooth. However, I can see two black lines where the seal rode on. No indentation is felt whatsoever. These where evident even after cleaning. Should I be concerned? Would it help to run a croucus cloth over it, before the final installation? What do you recommend?
Thanks |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 93
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 9:48 pm: | |
Caribe: The answer is YES. However, the problem is the deep recess....this would also be true if the engine was out of the car. I have the new seal, and everything cleaned up. I am now waiting for the aluminum round stock, that I ordered from e-bay. This is so that I can machine a seal "driver" so that the seal goes on evenly. One can install the seal in place, however, due to the recess, it would be easy to accidentally bend the seal.....that is the reason for the driver. After installing the seal everything should go back together without problems. |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member
Username: Caribe
Post Number: 372
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 8:04 pm: | |
Henry, just so that I understand what your approach was, were you able to fix this problem with the engine in the car? Thanks. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 68
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 2:12 pm: | |
David,
I really appreciate all your help....thank you.
I will get a supply of Q-tips, in order to get everything clean. It seems like the rest will go smoothly.
Henry |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 12:28 am: | |
Well, I've been around the block as to the best way to seal the splines/CV joint flange/bolt. Seems that the BBs are more prone to leaking diff oil past the splines into the CV joint flange, due to the proximity of the exhaust (high temps..). Whatever you use the method I described in an earlier post, or do what Algar says is not important. What is important is that all the mating surfaces and threads are spotless and oil free, so as the RTV and or lock-tite can do its' job properly!
As to torque figures, the BB, BBi and TR all use the same set-up...So torque figures should be the same.
Oil level...Yes, the oil will seek its own level, resulting in the correct (small amount of oil) in the transfer case. This method works effectively on all 308/328/BB/TR cars, and eliminates the nonsense of adding ".72 litres" to something.
Regards,
David |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 65
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 11:11 pm: | |
They probably became loose because of the meager 46 ft lbs. of torque........... |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 64
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:57 pm: | |
David,
By your description of the filling procedure, it would appear that the clutch housing will only take it's share of oil, and that the rest will go into the differential...is this correct?
Henry |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 63
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:54 pm: | |
David,
FYI.....The service manual gives the torque setting for the axle shaft to the differential at 44 lbs, and to the wheel at 59 lbs. It does not mention the bolt in question. I will call the Ferrari dealer in Chicago, since I agree with you, and also feel that 46 lbs is too low.....if I had to guess, I would go along with your figure........or maybe 450lbs, considering how hard it was to get off.
BTW, Algar suggested using blue Loc-tite on the distal ends of the splines of the flange, and RTV on the proximal ends prior to installation. This would also apply to the bolt. He stated that when Loc-tite was not used he has seen where they have become loose.
Henry |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 86
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:19 pm: | |
Henry,
You'll need to verify the torque figures with another TR owner, as I believe that Algar is incorrect. The center bolt, marked KAMAX, I believe is the manufacturer, not the torque spec.
According to my info, 87lb-ft for the center bolt, and 46 lb-ft for the CV joint allen bolts.
And, YES!...the seal is a PITA to change...hence why I pulled the drivetrain on my car..LOL.
The first time you remove the center bolt, it can be very difficult, not only due to chemical sealants used, but also to the the gear oil wicking into the treads and cooking the bolt in place.
As to oil level and draining...Personally, I would drain all the oil in the transaxle and clutch cover housing, and start fresh. Far too many problems with these gearboxes...There are three drains, if the TR is like the BB. Two 42mm plugs under the transaxle....and a 17mm plug on the clutch housing. The plug on the clutch housing is soft brass and tend to round easily...but is stocked by most Ferrari dealers.
Oil type...my preference RoyalPurple or RedLine. Refill procedure...Check owners manual for approx. quanity used, to start. Remove fill plug on top of the clutch housing and the plug on the back face of the transaxle used for checking the oil level. Keep pouring oil into the fill plug until oil starts coming out of the "checking" hole. (The vehicle needs to be level to do this..)
You're done.
David |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 56
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 4:23 pm: | |
OOPS,
10.9 kg should be 79.57 ft lbs. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 55
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 4:11 pm: | |
Thanks Dave,
I ordered the seal thru Algar ($32)....seems high for such a small seal.....Ferrari prices!!!!!!!
In order to get the axle out, I had to remove the caliper, rotor, parking brake cable and pads, and hub carrier. I then removed the shocks.... loosened the lower control arm mounting bolts and moved it downward. It didn't appear to me that there would be enough room to remove the axle without doing the above. Besides, with the hub carrier and shocks in place, one would be working in a deep tunnel. These items where easy to remove, thus giving me much need "elbow" room.....and brought me one foot closer to the seal......much easier this way.
Using a 1/2 inch impact wrench I was NOT able to get the 19 mm (3/4 inch) bolt out.......I then tried a breaker bar, with a 3 foot pipe extension, and NO luck.....I had enough pressure on it that the engine started turning.....IN GEAR!!!!! I had to buy a 3/4" socket for my 3/4" impact wrench.....didn't have a socket that small.....didn't ever think I would need to use it with the 3/4" impact wrench....this thing is for BIG bolts, like those on my back-hoe. Anyway, it finally came off.....I would guess that it took over 500 ft lbs. of torque to remove it......hard to believe. I never thought that Lok-Tite was that strong!!!!!!!!
Algar mechanic stated to torque the bolt to 46 ft lbs., while your suggestion was 87. On the head of the bolt it reads KAMAX 10.9. If this means max Kg it would come to 77.58 ft lbs.
I will install the seal next week. I will plan to machine a seal driver out of aluminum to the exact size. It seems that it would be VERY difficult installing the seal by hand....being that it is in a deep recess, with no room to maneuver a small hammer. I know how easy it is to bend these, trying to do it by hand.
When I refill my diff oil, what brand and weight do you recommend? I dind't drain the clutch oil......should I leave it alone? The amount drained from the diff was only that which came out when I replaced the speedo sensor, it was enough to work on the seal without any more oil flow......I couldn't get the drain plug out.....TOO tight....I used a 15 inch crescent wrench, and hit the end with a two pound hammer....no luck.....don't want to damage it.......must be the Lock-Tite holding a 20 ft lb plug!!!!!!!!!!! |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 80
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 3:24 pm: | |
Henry,
Well...it's is easy, just takes a whole lot of time. As to the seal numbers being superceeded, well, to be expected as the CV flange has been leaking since the 365BB...and three generations of cars later, and it still leaks. Go figure!
The CV flange seal is pretty straight forward to change. As you figured, it is necessary to remove the axle. The flange center bolt is torqued to 87 lb-ft., so it's easiest to blast it off with an air wrench. With a little persuasion, the flange will come off. (Best to drain the gear oil...first.) After you've got the seal out, clean the flange on the diff as best as possible, as well as the bolt hole threads...as you'll need to seal the bolt threads and flange with RTV when your done to prevent oil seepage up the threads. (Permatex Ultra-Grey seems to work better than most RTVs I've tried..)
Intstall new seal! Ha, as this is a pain to get centered, and seated. Reinstall the flange, coating the splines, behind the large hardened washer and the bolt threads with RTV. Torque to 87...(Have car in gear to prevent turning the diff).
Although some of the aftermarket part sources may carry the latest seal, I have had outstanding experiences with Algar in PA. 800-441-9824 (Jeff).
Regards,
David
|
Henryk (Henryk)
New member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 2:51 pm: | |
David,
After removing the wheel, I could see the wet area.....it was in the recessed part of the diff. side cover. I will assume that it is the seal ring of the axle shaft that is leaking. The cover was wet only on the bottom....due to run-off.
What else must I take off? Where can I buy this seal ring......must it be from Ferrari?
Thanks |
Henryk (Henryk)
New member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 11:48 am: | |
David: You make it sound so easy! Ha!Ha!
My 90 parts book (TR) describes the CV seal as a "seal ring", with separate numbers for R and L (133628 for R, and 141509 for L). It does state "after exhaustion no. 125077" for both! Apparently there must have been another update, to go back to separate numbers.
The picture shows the Left as definitely a much larger part than the Right.....The Left goes well into the case.
If it is the CV seal ring.....I assume that I would have to remove the wheel, and the complete half shaft. Just removing the inboard side would not allow enough room to get at the axle shaft securing flange. Any other parts to remove? The engine IS in the car. How nice it would be to work on a Ferrari engine on a stand, out of the car!! I would probably not want to put it back into the car!!!!!!!
Thanks again. |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 77
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2002 - 11:45 pm: | |
Henry,
Very familar with this area of the car...as I just finished up a gearbox/differential overhaul on the BB (essentially the same as the TR).
There are two possibilities for differential oil leaks in that area, one being the CV joint axle flange oil seal, or the other being the flange O-ring, as you describe.
It is important to determine which place is leaking as the CV flange oil seal can be changed with the drivetrain in place. (Ferrari has superceded this oil seal...and now the left and right hand seals are directional in nature, and of improved materials from original.
On the other hand, the flange o-ring is a whole different story. Although it appears that you can remove the flange in the car, you can't!. There is a stud from the engine that goes though the "oil pan" flange..and through the side cover. And, there is interference of the left side (only) from the oil pan casting that prevents removal of the diff. side cover. The cover on the LH side is really about 8" deep into the diff, as this supports the diff. in the transaxle housing.
So, how does one replace the o-ring? Remove drivetrain, separate engine from tranaxle, (27 nuts, 2 bolts....) and then remove the diff. side cover...) I left out a step or two, and many, many hours of labor.
More than likely, the leak is from the CV joint axle flange oil seal...not the o-ring. Be sure to check the surface of the flange where the oil seal rides for deep grooves...
Regards,
David |
Henryk (Henryk)
New member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 45
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2002 - 10:12 pm: | |
Differential fluid is leaking from the left rear side. The left drive axle attaches to the differential, with a larger ring type cover, surrounding the axle. The leak appears to be coming from the large ring-type cover surrounding the axle. Is this an easy fix, or do I have to remove the engine.
There appears to be access from the side, if I remove the axle......the exhaust is curved to go around this item.
Thanks. |
|